Author Topic: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?  (Read 4789 times)

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Offline EscapeVelocity

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Seems like it might be a pretty decent cheap keyboard.

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 03:22:59 »
Because?

Not saying you're wrong, but without some persuasive reasoning I'm not going to look up a scissor switch board.  Even if it does look good I won't be buying one as it's a Dell and I can't poke it first...
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Offline davkol

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 06:22:14 »
Scissor switch? KB-212 is an ordinary rubber dome, a rather mushy one. Unless they've released a new keyboard under the same name.

Offline EscapeVelocity

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 11:36:29 »
So the KB 212 isnt scissor switch?

Offline davkol

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 12:36:03 »
If you mean the following, it's not scissor switch…



Offline EscapeVelocity

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 13:02:09 »
How is it for a rubber dome? 

Offline davkol

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 13:19:06 »
Mushy. Very mushy. Less tactile/snappy, compared to old quietkeys. Shorter travel, but nowhere near common scissor switches. Relatively quiet, esp. compared to old quietkeys. Cheap-looking pad printing.

I very much prefer the design over most other cheap modern OEM keyboards. It's actually one of the very few keyboards that I consider good looking. Case finish is great. The standard layout without any extra multimedia keys is nice too.

Offline EscapeVelocity

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 14:58:15 »
How would you say it compares to the Dell KB 1421?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.   :thumb:

Offline davkol

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 15:33:38 »
Eh? It's the same thing.

Offline EscapeVelocity

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 15:49:30 »
Same keyboard just cheapened down further?  Maybe jettisoning the metal base plate?  Key travel seems less on the KB212 compared to the KB1421.

Offline Blaise170

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 15:53:15 »
Dell makes decent scissor switches, but their membrane are very cheap.
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Offline davkol

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 16:22:10 »
Same keyboard just cheapened down further?  Maybe jettisoning the metal base plate?  Key travel seems less on the KB212 compared to the KB1421.
Are you comparing actual hardware side by side, or just speculating? AFAIK KB-212, SK-8175 and KB-1421 are essentially all the same. There may exist some minor differences like among various SK-8115s, but it doesn't matter—it's all garbage, esp. relative to the classics .

Offline EscapeVelocity

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 17:17:51 »
Well, Im just trying learn by experience, and I would like to get either or both the KB 1421 and KB 212 to compare with the vintage rubber domes in my sig as a reference point.

I have a KB-1421 coming. If the KB-212 is the same then it might be worth recommending to friends looking for a cheapy, from what I understand.

Looks like the domes are different.

This thread has pics with key caps removed.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=13636.0

This from Pylon in 2011

So here's my consensus on OEM boards:

HP
SK-2885 - horrible.
KB-0316 - mediocre to pretty bad, leaning towards bad.

Lenovo
SK-xxxx - basically, the black one with the blue enter - mediocre to horrible.

Dell:
RT7D5JTW - Very, very good. One of the best rubber dome boards out there.
SK-8000 - okay to mediocre. Much worse than RT7D5JTW, but still okay. Keys wobble; feel is okay.
SK-8115 - not that bad when new; key feel is really good and nice and light, but the board is featherweight and the extended keys lack stabilizers except for spacebar and right sfhit. Probably terrible when old; the keys are going to bind.
L100 (identical aesthetically to SK-8115) - horrible, SK-8115 with worse feel, same cheaped out stabilization, and much better keys. They're still probably going to bind.
RT7D50 (identical looks wise to earlier two) - probably the better of the bunch, though the stabilization is still cheaped out and it's going to bind over age.
SK-8125 - feel is wonderful; no stabilization over longer keys except space and shift, though tolerances are tighter than SK-8115 and it's more tolerable; those keys probably binds over age.
KB-1421 - Excellent. Likely metal backplate judging by weight, and the key feel is very good. Excellent stabilization across all keys it seems.
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 June 2015, 17:21:07 by EscapeVelocity »

Offline davkol

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 18:30:12 »
You won't get any meaningful results though. There are threads, where people praise, say, the dark blue-silver HP keyboards (like DT527A), as well as threads, where people despise the same piece of hardware. Pylon might think the Lenovo Preferred Pro is mediocre to horrible, while I consider it above average, due to the soft domes and a combination of rough and rubberized surfaces. It's personal preference, but not reproducible, unlike in case of Cherry MX or Alps SKCM switches.

However, the common denominator of nearly all of these keyboards is that they're utter garbage. Even my "favorite" Key Tronic KT800 (& similar models) is crap. So is Logitech 250 that I still kinda like. Sure, the domes are nice and snappy, it has a "standard" layout, I like the font and laser-etching, but the case is light and creaky, keycaps are loud and rattle on the upstroke, the ABS plastic wears out and it's a membrane keyboard, that won't survive the first cleaning/spillage (or will feel like **** afterwards, due to washed away lube, if there ever was any).

Moreover, non-enthusiasts don't give a damn, except for the layout… and if they do, they have weird preferences (usually only the "proper" size/shape of Enter, Shift and Backspace keys). For example, I remember how all devs I knew were after a particular batch of Genius 110 keyboards, or something like that.

I had dozens of various cheap/old domes, but recently gave them all away. I can import a brand new Cherry G80-3000 from Germany for €60, and optionally mod it. Some used G80s for rack mount (18xx, 11900/11800) can be had for €20 or less. IBM Model M, Alps Bigfoot (Dell AT101-102), clicky-Alps Silitek,… all of it is much nicer than most domes and costs only marginally more.

Offline EscapeVelocity

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 18:41:50 »
You dont have to sell me on mechanical switches.

So you like the Logitech/IBM Preferred Pro? Ive heard people talk that one up a bit too.

I have a Dell KB 1421 coming, Ill check it out.

Im just in a learning via experience mode. I dont mean to be a crashing bore or a pester.

Offline Blaise170

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 19:12:48 »
You aren't pestering anyone as we are all here to learn as it is. We just want to make sure that you know what you are getting into on these things.  :p
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Offline davkol

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 19:43:16 »
You dont have to sell me on mechanical switches.
I'm telling you what I wish someone told me five years ago: Avoid this crap. Seriously. It's wasted effort, time and money on shipping. Because…

So you like the Logitech/IBM Preferred Pro? Ive heard people talk that one up a bit too.
No, I don't *like* them. I can list at least a dozen of domes that don't outright suck. BTC 51x9, Key Tronic KT800/KT1000/E6something, some NMBs, the logitech, some oem dells, Lenovo Preferred Pro, Chicony 5311 (the one with large modifiers), Silitek MaxiSwitch keyboards, some compaqs and so on and so on.

The thing is… Shipping is way too expensive for such experiments. You never know what condition they're in. It could be stored poorly, owned by a smoker,… and keyboards are gross. They aren't worth cleaning either, because you might damage the membrane, position the domes on it incorrectly, wash any lube on sliders, etc. Do you like shiny ABS anyway?

If you touch type, there are much comfier physical layouts. Lots of fun can be had by just playing with software layouts, extension software, you name it.  There isn't much modding potential in proprietary domes either.

Offline EscapeVelocity

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 20:27:37 »
You really know your stuff.

I want to know, too! 

Thanks for the tips on some models to check out.

Offline davkol

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 11 June 2015, 02:12:35 »
Not sure if sarcastic.

If not, I'm curious, what do you plan to actually *do* with the keyboards?

FIY it took me more than two years to resell a pallet of NIB Lenovo Preferred Pro keyboards without taking a financial loss, only wasting time. I was extremely lucky to find two collectors in three years to resell a couple of original Microsoft Natural keyboards (one of them NIB). I've harvested keycaps from a few MX-compatible BTC rubber domes. Everything else has been given away and most likely only recycled by someone else.

Offline EscapeVelocity

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 11 June 2015, 02:23:32 »
Sounds like you really had a thing for those Preferred Pros! A lot of people really like those MS Natural keyboards too (might like to check out one sometime) Dont like the large footprint of the Preferred Pros though.

Im not wasting a bunch, just a few. Ill be giving some away to friends & familiy, reselling some, keeping some.  I have plenty of great guidance, too. Thanks to everyone.

Im a believer in a good rubber dome and the popularity of Topre switches is great to see.

Im a bit of an antiquarian and collector as well, so there is that. Bit of nostalgia too. Plus just gaining experience and knowledge.

Offline davkol

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 11 June 2015, 02:46:55 »
OK, everybody. EscapeVelocity is a troll, or has a reading-comprehension problem. Abandon thread.

Sounds like you really had a thing for those Preferred Pros!
Yeah, so much that I used it for a whole _afternoon_ before the sharp keycap edges started to hurt my thumbs. So much that it took me two years to resell 6 NIB keyboards in 2.5 years at 25 % or MSRP. Truly a crowd's favorite.

A lot of people really like those MS Natural keyboards too
Yeah, so much that I gave it to several people and all of them returned it in a few weeks, because the domes were too stiff for an "ergonomic" keyboard. So much that it took me a year to find a buyer for a NIB keyboard with national localization (=rare) at €15 shipped (25 % of a brand new Ergo 4k), and another two years to find a buyer for other two of these keyboards, and the guy ended up disliking them anyway.

Offline EscapeVelocity

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 11 June 2015, 03:00:59 »
They say that MS keyboards generally have higher stiffness in the key depress (weight)....and the 4K version is a bit better than the Natural Elites and Natural Pros.

Do you sell keyboards for a living?  I thought you just had stocked up on your favorites for your own use.

Im not a troll, we're just talking past one another, from different perspectives.

Offline davkol

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 11 June 2015, 03:26:38 »
They say that MS keyboards generally have higher stiffness in the key depress (weight)....and the 4K version is a bit better than the Natural Elites and Natural Pros.
Who says? I don't think I've ever found a reasonable source on this.

MS Natural Pro was the best quality by far, followed by Elite (cheaper, lighter) and the original model. Everything afterwards, including the Ergo 4k, is junk quality-wise… an overengineered mushboard with an awful spacebar (just like curved MS keyboards from the same time, e.g., Comfort Curve 2000). Only the new Sculpt series is a step in a good direction.

Do you sell keyboards for a living?  I thought you just had stocked up on your favorites for your own use.
For a living? Nope. I found a good deal a few times and thought I'd actually use it or distribute it among friends/classmates/family/… It was ignorant. That should have be pretty clear since I mentioned giving the vast majority away or recycling it.

It's impossible to make money in this niche, unless (a) you're a maker, (b) you have contacts at recyclers, (c) you're Ellipsis or profiteering on custom keycaps.

Offline Maxxon

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Re: Has anybody looked at the scissor switch Dell KB-212 closely?
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 11 June 2015, 03:56:43 »
Same keyboard just cheapened down further?  Maybe jettisoning the metal base plate?  Key travel seems less on the KB212 compared to the KB1421.

I know about both keyboards as we are using Dell PCs at work. The KB1421 is the older model and the KB212 is their current model. Both are cheap rubberdome keyboards. For typing, i prefer the KB1421 over the KB212, although they are both crap. The key travel in the KB1421 is more.
The KB212 is a little bit like a laptop keyboard but has more key travel than a usual a laptop keyboard usually has. I would say its something in between and thats the thing that makes it feel just "wrong". People here ask if we there are at least any spare KB1421, so i don't seem to be alone with my opinion.