Charleston Church shootings, racial tension and the growing right militarization

[berserkfan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/the-other-terror-threat.html?ref=international

The rest you can google and read your preferred news source.

I notice that racial tension has increased markedly in the US since I was a student there. It was totally not like that in the 1990s.

It is my belief that this tension comes from several sources, and will not easily subside.

1) Demographic. Whites are losing their majority.

2) Cultural. USA is becoming more multicultural, so many people are losing sight of their identities. Identity is becoming more contested.

3) Increasing gap between rich and poor. This creates a frustrated underclass of white unemployed, the traditional source for right wing 'nativist' militants in the US.

4) Election of Obama has caused a lot of right wing politicians and news sources to really go ballistic. They really can't stand the idea of a black man in charge. Believe me, Fox news was nowhere so racist and fear mongering back in the 1990s.

5) Increasing availability of guns and a decrease in social cohesion makes it easier for lone wolf individuals to do extreme things.

I don't see how these tensions will die down in the next 20-30 years because they are social trends and trends take many years to change. So I am pessimistic.

XXX

On a side note, I am totally opposed to the death penalty, or even prison, for Dylann Roof the Charleston shooter. I would even release him from prison.

I am normally a very law and order guy. Why not severely punish him?

Well, ok, he's young. He's got an entire life ahead of him. But not that.

Don't create a martyr. Humiliation is far more important for a racial supremacist like him, and it serves far better as a disincentive for other would be shooters.

Dylann Roof should be sentenced to life... as a janitor.

For black owned and black frequented establishments.

He should be only allowed to clean toilets (no electrical or boiler room work).

He should clean toilets 12 hours a day from Monday to Saturday, and be forced to attend only black churches on Sunday mornings. He can clean more toilets for black people on Sunday afternoon. And he can do that for the remainder of his natural life. In fact he should be sent to a black neighbourhood of Charleston where he must walk his rounds cleaning toilets for every black household and business.

How's that for a really deterrent punishment?

[beehatch]

I like how you think the method of exposure will solve anything. Black people in that community would not want a convicted murderer anywhere near them, especially a racist one. And are we going to have to have someone watch this idiot if he's released to clean bathrooms as "punishment?"

Also, you make it seem like it's an actual punishment to BE a janitor and go to church. Lol okay.

That was just an overall terrible idea.

[cmadrid]

Also.. guns becoming more available?  They are not suddenly handing out guns because of the scary black president.

[ShardZer0]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/the-other-terror-threat.html?ref=international

The rest you can google and read your preferred news source.

I notice that racial tension has increased markedly in the US since I was a student there. It was totally not like that in the 1990s.

It is my belief that this tension comes from several sources, and will not easily subside.

1) Demographic. Whites are losing their majority.

2) Cultural. USA is becoming more multicultural, so many people are losing sight of their identities. Identity is becoming more contested.

3) Increasing gap between rich and poor. This creates a frustrated underclass of white unemployed, the traditional source for right wing 'nativist' militants in the US.

4) Election of Obama has caused a lot of right wing politicians and news sources to really go ballistic. They really can't stand the idea of a black man in charge. Believe me, Fox news was nowhere so racist and fear mongering back in the 1990s.

5) Increasing availability of guns and a decrease in social cohesion makes it easier for lone wolf individuals to do extreme things.

I don't see how these tensions will die down in the next 20-30 years because they are social trends and trends take many years to change. So I am pessimistic.

XXX

On a side note, I am totally opposed to the death penalty, or even prison, for Dylann Roof the Charleston shooter. I would even release him from prison.

I am normally a very law and order guy. Why not severely punish him?

Well, ok, he's young. He's got an entire life ahead of him. But not that.

Don't create a martyr. Humiliation is far more important for a racial supremacist like him, and it serves far better as a disincentive for other would be shooters.

Dylann Roof should be sentenced to life... as a janitor.

For black owned and black frequented establishments.

He should be only allowed to clean toilets (no electrical or boiler room work).

He should clean toilets 12 hours a day from Monday to Saturday, and be forced to attend only black churches on Sunday mornings. He can clean more toilets for black people on Sunday afternoon. And he can do that for the remainder of his natural life. In fact he should be sent to a black neighbourhood of Charleston where he must walk his rounds cleaning toilets for every black household and business.

How's that for a really deterrent punishment?

I personally think we should just execute animals like Dylan Roof, and do it in public as well. True zero tolerance.

This ofcoarse will never happen and this will just keep happenning.

[beehatch]

I would also like to state racism will always/has been a problem. However, I HIGHLY doubt it has risen. You may believe so because you see so many opportunistic media outlets reporting on anything with a sense of racism in the recent years.

[ShardZer0]

As if the situation in Charleston wasn't bad enough news for the week, this just happened: http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/police-cincinnati-officer-shot-in-madisonville

This is gonna be a rough summer. 

[fohat.digs]

FEAR

It is all down to that one word. Rich people fear losing even a tiny crumb of their money, and everybody else fears everything else.

Personally, I believe that if the majority of the people in the (Western) world could uncouple their politics from their religion, then they could evaluate each objectively and make realistic social decisions.

And, although I hate the Roman Catholic Church for countless reasons, they have finally elected a pope who is a truly honorable man.
 
Perhaps he can bring some sanity to the table.

[baldgye]

I would also like to state racism will always [be] a problem.

Nah I don't think so, it will be around for the whole of my lifetime but I think it will be phased out and replaced with something else. Europe isn't perfect and has a pretty horrible record with slavery in the past, but we manage to do better than the US on the whole (I think), and you'll catch up eventually.

And, although I hate the Roman Catholic Church for countless reasons, they have finally elected a pope who is a truly honorable man.

lmao, thanks for making me laugh while at work haha

[fohat.digs]

Perhaps I am not fully informed.

[beehatch]

FEAR

It is all down to that one word. Rich people fear losing even a tiny crumb of their money, and everybody else fears everything else.

Personally, I believe that if the majority of the people in the (Western) world could uncouple their politics from their religion, then they could evaluate each objectively and make realistic social decisions.

And, although I hate the Roman Catholic Church for countless reasons, they have finally elected a pope who is a truly honorable man.
 
Perhaps he can bring some sanity to the table.

Sad thing is if you're an official, you should already be separating your own religion from the politics. It's a crazy idea I know.

I, too, don't care for the Catholic Church, but this pope does seem like less of tyrant/ass than some of the others. I feel like though, a lot of people don't care what he has to say and I'm not sure it would change anything to begin with. It might change a weak politician's views for a moment, but money talks louder in the end.

[ShardZer0]

The Pope lost me when he started talking about climate change.

[beehatch]

I would also like to state racism will always [be] a problem.

Nah I don't think so, it will be around for the whole of my lifetime but I think it will be phased out and replaced with something else. Europe isn't perfect and has a pretty horrible record with slavery in the past, but we manage to do better than the US on the whole (I think), and you'll catch up eventually.

Yea slavery and racism has been a thing for thousands of years, its not going anytime soon. Racism will never be phased out. It will always be there even if people aren't as open about it as they previously could be.

[demik]

We should all carry.

[fohat.digs]

We should all carry.

At least when you go to church.

[baldgye]

I would also like to state racism will always [be] a problem.

Nah I don't think so, it will be around for the whole of my lifetime but I think it will be phased out and replaced with something else. Europe isn't perfect and has a pretty horrible record with slavery in the past, but we manage to do better than the US on the whole (I think), and you'll catch up eventually.

Yea slavery and racism has been a thing for thousands of years, its not going anytime soon. Racism will never be phased out. It will always be there even if people aren't as open about it as they previously could be.

ehh I don't think so, if you look at how far we have advanced socially in the last hundred, two hundred years, it's quite amazing and I don't see why that rate of change would slow down. To be honest I think racism will just leave out social world and be replaced by something else, like gender, humanism etc
People like to categorise things, which is perhaps why many people feel that racism is human nature, but I don't think that's really true and that the category of race will be phased out in the next few centuries as it continues to be less relevant.

Like I said I don't expect it to be something I'll see in my life time, but I do think it will happen, even in the USA

[demik]

Nah I skip that mess. No church no theater.

[sth]

We should all carry.

i will carry u

[berserkfan]

Beehatch, punishment should fit the criminal.

To you, cleaning black people’s toilets is nothing. This guy is a white supremacist. It’s torture to him. And you don’t even need some dungeon or nasty medieval instruments to torture him for 60 years or whenever is the length of his life.

And as for the protection of black people’s neighbourhoods…  the United States is on the Federal system. Each community can organize its own security. I’m sure the Black Panthers will all be happy to supervise this very unpopular guy as he walks around cleaning toilets.

And if they get creative with a toilet plunger, Abner Louima style, well I’m sure most people won’t be rushing to defend Mr. Roof’s rights. If I were the DA I would certainly misplace that file.

As for the pope, am not sure what to make of him after that Climate Change thing. A religious leader should be focused on guiding people on morality and principles. I'm not a climate change denialist, and personally can tell you that it has become much hotter where I live in the past few decades. But it's never a good idea to endorse one scientific position or other. If he just stuck to telling Catholics that they should respect and preserve the environment, that's better.

[demik]

We should all carry.

i will carry u

My personal Kevin Costner.

[baldgye]

Beehatch, punishment should fit the criminal.

To you, cleaning black people�s toilets is nothing. This guy is a white supremacist. It�s torture to him.

But by having that as a punishment, your essentially agreeing with his racist opinion...

[nubbinator]

We should all carry.

I'm all for guns, but most non-professionals I've seen who want to conceal carry have delusions about playing the hero.  IMO, all gun owners should be required to have take gun safety courses before ownership and renewal courses every 5-10 years.  In order to have a conceal carry, you should have to undergo threat recognition and de-escalation training and at least biennial recertification.

Militaries have blue on blue incidents due to the confusion in the situation, it's inevitable that that would occur with poorly trained civilians if a large portion carried.

[berserkfan]

Beehatch, punishment should fit the criminal.

To you, cleaning black people�s toilets is nothing. This guy is a white supremacist. It�s torture to him.

But by having that as a punishment, your essentially agreeing with his racist opinion...

Nonsense. If I were the judge and the perp was from the UKIP/ BNP, I'd make him wipe his backside on the Union Jack for the rest of his life.

And for Muslim terrorists my toilet paper of choice would be pages from the Koran. They'd be desperately holding all their **** in...

If a black panther shot up a white church, I guess I'll sentence him to picking cotton in Uzbekistan for the rest of his life, and ban him from eating anything outside watermelon and fried chicken.

[fohat.digs]

@ berserk

A religious leader should be focused on guiding people on morality and principles.

But it's never a good idea to endorse one scientific position or other.

If he just stuck to telling Catholics that they should respect and preserve the environment, that's better.

*   *   *   *   *

That Galileo thing worked out pretty well for a previous pope.

Religion works a lot better when it accepts truth and reality and rejects superstition and politics.

Too bad that Western religions are poisoned by their insistence on clinging to their false bronze-age gods.

In prehistoric times religion and science (such as it was) were pretty much one and the same.

[beehatch]

Beehatch, punishment should fit the criminal.

To you, cleaning black people’s toilets is nothing. This guy is a white supremacist. It’s torture to him. And you don’t even need some dungeon or nasty medieval instruments to torture him for 60 years or whenever is the length of his life.

And as for the protection of black people’s neighbourhoods…  the United States is on the Federal system. Each community can organize its own security. I’m sure the Black Panthers will all be happy to supervise this very unpopular guy as he walks around cleaning toilets.

And if they get creative with a toilet plunger, Abner Louima style, well I’m sure most people won’t be rushing to defend Mr. Roof’s rights. If I were the DA I would certainly misplace that file.

Why do you think it's okay for him to be RELEASED in order to go be a janitor? It's actually insulting to black people and janitors. You're literally hoping that, by him being in a large black community, he will be tortured and killed by that community.

What would happen if this guy killed people why doing this stupid job that you think is a punishment?

You also want a violent extremist group to "supervise" him? You're so high.

I think it's seriously ****ing hilarious that you don't like death penalty or prisons, but you're all for torturing this guy.

Just go ahead and say it, you want him tortured by black people.

By the way, the Black Panthers that you are remembering from like the 80's don't even exist anymore. It's under a new name and a few different philosophies.

Go troll elsewhere, pls plssssss pls

Beehatch, punishment should fit the criminal.

To you, cleaning black people�s toilets is nothing. This guy is a white supremacist. It�s torture to him.

But by having that as a punishment, your essentially agreeing with his racist opinion...

Nonsense. If I were the judge and the perp was from the UKIP/ BNP, I'd make him wipe his backside on the Union Jack for the rest of his life.

And for Muslim terrorists my toilet paper of choice would be pages from the Koran. They'd be desperately holding all their **** in...

If a black panther shot up a white church, I guess I'll sentence him to picking cotton in Uzbekistan for the rest of his life, and ban him from eating anything outside watermelon and fried chicken.

Furthermore, you're becoming seriously obscene.

[cmadrid]

We should all carry.

I'm all for guns, but most non-professionals I've seen who want to conceal carry have delusions about playing the hero.  IMO, all gun owners should be required to have take gun safety courses before ownership and renewal courses every 5-10 years.  In order to have a conceal carry, you should have to undergo threat recognition and de-escalation training and at least biennial recertification.

Militaries have blue on blue incidents due to the confusion in the situation, it's inevitable that that would occur with poorly trained civilians if a large portion carried.

I think some cops could use a bit of extra de-escalation training too..

[iri]

Someone in SG, kick berserkfan in the balls already.

[baldgye]

@ berserk

A religious leader should be focused on guiding people on morality and principles.

But it's never a good idea to endorse one scientific position or other.

If he just stuck to telling Catholics that they should respect and preserve the environment, that's better.

*   *   *   *   *

That Galileo thing worked out pretty well for a previous pope.

Religion works a lot better when it accepts truth and reality and rejects superstition and politics.

Too bad that Western religions are poisoned by their insistence on clinging to their false bronze-age gods.

In prehistoric times religion and science (such as it was) were pretty much one and the same.

If the shooting had taken place in a WallMart would you be posting stuff from there HR department?

[heedpantsnow]

edit: nvm.  No point in arguing this.

[demik]

@ berserk

A religious leader should be focused on guiding people on morality and principles.

But it's never a good idea to endorse one scientific position or other.

If he just stuck to telling Catholics that they should respect and preserve the environment, that's better.

*   *   *   *   *

That Galileo thing worked out pretty well for a previous pope.

Religion works a lot better when it accepts truth and reality and rejects superstition and politics.

Too bad that Western religions are poisoned by their insistence on clinging to their false bronze-age gods.

In prehistoric times religion and science (such as it was) were pretty much one and the same.

If the shooting had taken place in a WallMart would you be posting stuff from there HR department?

Well this is a racial motivated shooting spree, so it wouldn't happen in Walmart.

[katushkin]

For ****'s sake... seriously?

[paicrai]

breaking news another white person in america is ****ing crazy, GH goes nuts in ways noone could imagine

[KeypressGraphics]

Imagine if the media caused such an uproar whenever a person dies in a traffic accident, of lung cancer caused by smoking, heart disease caused by overeating & inactivity, alcoholism, domestic violence, drug abuse... the point is of all the ways a person can lose their life being the target of a crazed gunman or terrorist attack must actually be close to the least likely, yet these are the incidents that fill newspaper column inches.

A lot of it has to do with creating a 'narrative' to suit an agenda. There's a lot of that going around these days as journalism has become more concerned with opinion than fact. Making a profit from traditional media has become increasingly difficult and not only are opinions attention grabbing but they are infinitely cheaper than uncovering facts and cannot be proved incorrect - "I'm just stating an opinion!".

I'm not suggesting America does not have a race problem, or more relevantly a gun problem, but I think it's important to analyze things in their proper context. Fearmongering can be a useful tool for governments to distract their populations from more weighty problems they refuse to address like poverty and inequality.