Northgate Omnikey 101-NCS AT/XT

[erricrice]

So I came across this 'board in my girlfriend's mom's storage unit and asked if I could keep it.  Of course, the answer was 'oh that old thing, sure!'

So I took it home, and of course, I don't have an AT to PS/2 adapter.
>.<

At this point I'm thinking it's just a normal Omnikey 101 with real white alps and all that jazz.

I took a look online at northgate keyboard repair, and saw that it was not just a normal 101, it was the 101-N which has dipswitches to switch between XT and AT.  So I emailed Bob to see what it's worth in it's current condition(very very yellow and some broken plastic, also missing feeties)

He emails me back confirming it's the 101-N and saying that the 101-N is a collecter's item and is quite rare.  

Cool!  At this point I'm thinking well, I'll get it working and just use this, as I looove the feel of the keys(real white alps).  

My adapter came in today and I tried it out.  D T and tab do not work.  Boo.
So since I have nothing else to lose, I took the thing apart to see what I could do.  Took off the assembly for tab, put it back together, and now tab works!  Yay!

Tried the same with d and t but it didn't work.  I even switched the assembly with the assembly from F13 to no avail though, apparently the problem is below the top part of the switch.  

Short of de-soldering the switch from where it is and taking a different switch(pause or the like) and soldering that in place, is there anything else I could try?

Also I think I remember seeing somewhere that plate-mounted switches are difficult to de-solder, is there anything on the site here explaining how to do this(haven't bothered to look yet, I will later).

I will probably end up getting an omnikey since these switches feel so good but this 'board seems to be on it's way out, but I want to play with it for a bit, and also keep it just as a collecter's item because of the complete whack layout.

Also, the 6-part ALPS switch includes the casing and the other stationary part in that 6 right?  Because when I took the switch apart, there were only 4 parts that came out(slider, upper casing, click leaf and spring).  Pics below.  Casing clearly says ALPS on it.

And yes, that's Ctrl and Alt you see switched there...

Ideas?  Thoughts?  Concerns?  Bueller?  Bueller?

[wellington1869]

nice find dude. out of curiosity, did northgate repair offer you anything for it? was it more/less than you expected?
also even if you wanted to keep it you could always send it to them to repair/cleaning. I'm sure he'd do a great job.

on the D key, with the top of the alps case off, if you plug it in and use a toothpick to try to activate the switch, does it work? if it does, your problem is in the key housing and not on the board.

[timw4mail]

If ever there was something to try retr0bright on, that keyboard is it...

Heh...the keyboard's extremely sunburned...

I have too much of a tendancy to bottom out to fully enjoy ALPS switches, but from what I understand, those are the holy grail of ALPS switches.

[erricrice]

Haha, yeah lol it is quite yellowed, and yes, I did ask if it was worth anything to Bob at northgate and he said normally he would be very interested, but since it is almost orange(as he put it lol) he said he wouldn't be able to do much with it.  He said that he has something for the 'yellow', but with as orange as this thing is he wasn't confident that he could do anything about it.  I will give the toothpick method a try in a bit and get back here.  

I am probably going to buy a normal 101 from him anyway just to have a keyboard that I know is going to work for a long time(this one is obviously not in the greatest of condition haha)

[timw4mail]

Well, if you can fnid hyrogen peroxide ~10%, and some OxyClean, you could soak the keyboard shell in that mixture, and it would eventually become more beige, and thus sellable.

http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com/Retr0Bright+Gel

I've been wanting to try it myself, but you have the prime candidate.

[erricrice]

Well, if you can fnid hyrogen peroxide ~10%, and some OxyClean, you could soak the keyboard shell in that mixture, and it would eventually become more beige, and thus sellable.

http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com/Retr0Bright+Gel

I've been wanting to try it myself, but you have the prime candidate.

Yes, I will definitely try it!

Right now I'm trying to get the switches to work, tab and D went fine, all I did was switch the actuation leaf, but T is giving me a real problem and I'm going to have to ghetto-fy it to make it work.  I switched all the components I could without soldering so far and it's still not working.  I have one last thing to try and then I'm giving up.

Given the barely-working condition of the keyboard, I don't think I would ever feel good about selling it...Plus I would love to have it as a collector type of thing.  I love the whacky layout haha.

[wellington1869]

Given the barely-working condition of the keyboard, I don't think I would ever feel good about selling it...Plus I would love to have it as a collector type of thing.  I love the whacky layout haha.

what do you mean 'barely working'? So its just down to the T key, right?
Does T work if you move the actuator with a toothpick?

[erricrice]

Yes, the T key works if I actuate it with a toothpick, but once I get the assembly back together, the slider won't actuate it.  I've switched out the actuation leaf with multiple different ones to the same result, no actuation.  I also messed around with the actuation plates(the part that is actually soldered into the pcb) and now that I've got that back together it still won't actuate using the slider.  I've also tried multiple sliders with different actuation leafs and springs(spent about 5 hours last night trying different things, geh), and again, nothing.

Now I've put a spot of epoxy on the slider to make it a little fatter so that it might actuate.  Have to wait for that to dry before I can continue.

And what I mean by barely working is that since 3 keys have already failed, who knows how long the others are going to continue to work(or how long this fix works, if at all).  I wouldn't feel good selling it that way, even if I post it in the ad.  I would rather just keep it you know?

[erricrice]

Luckily I have plenty of spare parts from the extra F keys and the omni key in the middle of the num pad.  I can also always take the randomly not used keys(sc lk, pause etc) If I need the parts.

If anyone has any ideas, please shoot, I would love to get this thing working.

[wellington1869]

Yes, the T key works if I actuate it with a toothpick,

dude, this means the main components on the pcb are fine! This simplifies your repair work immensely!

you see its now just a (comparably) simple mechanical project. Something in the upper housing is squishing or somehow preventing the contact from being made. Just look at each individual component carefully, start reassembling the upper housing one piece at a time while testing with toothpick at each stage. You'll soon isolate exactly at which point in the reassembly of the upper housing the switch fails -- thus pointing to the culprit. Its most likely a bent actuator as ripster says, but just go step by step in the reassembly and test with toothpick (or by pressing down on the slider slowly to actuate). When actuation fails, the last thing you did is the area of investigation.

use aqua's keytest if you need to, its handy for this sort of thing.

[alpslover]

bad solder joints, maybe?  by actuating the switch with a toothpick you're probably imparting more lateral force to the entire switching assembly than the slider does normally, and that might be enough to 'close' the connection between the switch and pcb.

try redoing the joints.  if that doesn't work, swap the switches.  you've already tried everything else short of that, it seems.

[erricrice]

Rip - These are the complex alps see here for parts.  But yeah I tried that.

I have tried bending the actuator leaf, tried multiple ones, etc.  I can't seem to get any of them to work.  After I played with the actuation contacts, I could get the actuator to work with a toothpick, but now the slider won't actuate it with the assembly together.  I have tried switching all the parts but the ones that are soldered in, nothing has worked.

I think what happened is the small gold foil leaf that is what is pushed by the actuator got bent out of place, and now that I've bent it back into place it will work, but is not in the proper place to work with the slider when the assembly is put together.  I am working on fixing this now, the only solution I see is making the slider a bit fatter to make it actuate easier.  I'll let you know how it works once it's dry and I'm back home(need to leave now)

Tnx for the help!

BTW: when I say actuator leaf, I mean the thing that looks like a click leaf, but is smaller and when I say actuation contacts that is the gold part that actually makes the electrical connection.

[erricrice]

bad solder joints, maybe?  by actuating the switch with a toothpick you're probably imparting more lateral force to the entire switching assembly than the slider does normally, and that might be enough to 'close' the connection between the switch and pcb.

try redoing the joints.  if that doesn't work, swap the switches.  you've already tried everything else short of that, it seems.

Yeah, once I get the time this weekend, if I haven't solved it by then I'm going to just be attaching another switch.  Not worth all this effort haha.

[wellington1869]

Yeah, once I get the time this weekend, if I haven't solved it by then I'm going to just be attaching another switch.  Not worth all this effort haha.

well call me crazy but i actually enjoyed fiddling with the actuators on the alps switches; a nice contained little project Like playing with tinkertoys or my old mechano set

i actually found it therapuetic

[itlnstln]

Welly, you're crazy.

[wellington1869]

Welly, you're crazy.

;-D I figured as much;  but thanks for the confirmation ;-D

[wellington1869]

This is one of the things i like about alps switches tho - they're so accessible. whehter for fixing or tweaking. much easier to work with than cherry switches, which half the time you cant even get to the latches on the housing.

alps are like linux. open up the hood and do what you like.
cherries are like macs. use whats in the package or go away.
bs are like, of course, ms. you can open it up, understand it, and tweak a couple of things, but careful, its delicate under there!

[itlnstln]

bs are like, of course, ms. you can open it up, understand it, and tweak a couple of things, but careful, its delicate under there!

The ensuing comments regarding this should be interesting.
 
I would disagree with the Cherry statement, though.  Provided the switches aren't plate-mounted, you can trade/modify parts all you want.

[erricrice]

well call me crazy but i actually enjoyed fiddling with the actuators on the alps switches; a nice contained little project Like playing with tinkertoys or my old mechano set

i actually found it therapuetic

Well, I loved taking apart the switches and learning about them, that was awesome, but then when there were still problems after I ruled out all possible variables, then I got kinda annoyed.  

I love learning this stuff, but when I have a lot to lose(a great keyboard) I don't want to take the risk of destroying it!  I just want it to work at that point.

And quite an insightful statement about the types of switches there welly

Epoxy still drying BTW, updates when I can put the thing back together.

[wellington1869]

I would disagree with the Cherry statement, though.  Provided the switches aren't plate-mounted, you can trade/modify parts all you want.

true, tho most boards i've seen (especially the less expensive cherry boards) are all plate mounted and so inaccessible. "Not user serviceable parts" as apple might say You know, like your hard drive, memory, or battery

[wellington1869]

epoxy does wonders.  After duct tape and velcro, its the third greatest thing in the universe.

[erricrice]

epoxy does wonders.  After duct tape and velcro, its the third greatest thing in the universe.

YES!

Except it needs to dry faster so I don't pull my hair out >.<

[timw4mail]

Epoxy that instantly dried would be a nightmare, though... Just seeing what people can do to themselves with Super Glue...

[erricrice]

Epoxy that instantly dried would be a nightmare, though... Just seeing what people can do to themselves with Super Glue...

Haha, yeah I know, but it certainly makes life suspenseful sometimes...

Anyways, so now I have a key that actuates wayyyy too early!  But at least now I know that I can just sand down the epoxy nub and get it to the right spot!  Will be working on that for the next few hours...

[JBert]

alps are like linux. open up the hood and do what you like.
cherries are like macs. use whats in the package or go away.
bs are like, of course, ms. you can open it up, understand it, and tweak a couple of things, but careful, its delicate under there!

Bah, rubber domes can be linked to MS for all I care. You can see how it works, but you can't mod it and it is boring anyway.
I would compare BS with OS/2 - technically advanced and refined, yet a bit outdated and only used by a diminishing group of people.

Anyway...

[wellington1869]

But at least now I know that I can just sand down the epoxy nub and get it to the right spot!  

now you're thinking you'll have it fully functional in no time

[erricrice]

Hooray I fixed it!

Sanded down my little JB weld nub and now it works great!

Now to get used to the layout....

So review on this one soon!

Also some retr0brighting to be done as well!

One strange thing about the keyboard though is that it repeats keys 2-3 times faster than any keyboard that I have ever used.  Just leaving a key down for half a second ends you up with this iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

I know you can change this, but I thought I'd mention it.

Switches are most definitely worn out, but they still feel great!

[timw4mail]

When you try retr0bright, be sure to have before and after pictures. I'm sure the results will be pretty impressive.

[erricrice]

When you try retr0bright, be sure to have before and after pictures. I'm sure the results will be pretty impressive.

Oh yes.

Most glorious.

[wellington1869]

congrats! nice job. looking forward to the review

[InSanCen]

just to chip in on the Retr0bright.

It works perfectly, but you will need multiple applications on that board! I've had great success with many variations on ABS plastic, but never tried anything that yellow.

[microsoft windows]

I'd just keep it yellow. It shows the keyboard has withstood the ages.