Author Topic: Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S  (Read 16973 times)

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Offline Techno Trousers

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 10:19:29 »
Some very nice mechanical keyboard love from the mainstream press! Maybe the function/media keys will help win over the Logitech/Razer crowd too.

http://www.wired.com/reviews/product/pr_das_keyboard

Offline quadibloc

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 11:10:10 »
Quote from: Techno Trousers;122553
Some very nice mechanical keyboard love from the mainstream press!


Although the statement "IBM and Lexmark have long since abandoned the Model M" must be causing sad faces over at Unicomp.

Offline Techno Trousers

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 13:10:23 »
Quote from: quadibloc;122562
Although the statement "IBM and Lexmark have long since abandoned the Model M" must be causing sad faces over at Unicomp.
Well, at least they did mention Unicomp at the end of the review.

Quote from: webwit

5. Cherry Blue switches, aimed at beginners who are impressed by clicky sounds or non-beginning douchebags who want to impress people by pressing small leafs of metal while typing. It is a b-switch.
Hey now, I happen to love my Filco 104 tactile click. We're all here for the love of mechanical switches, whatever flavor we prefer, right?

As for the controller issues, perhaps they've addressed that. They would have had to do some reprogramming to support the media functions on the F-keys. I'm going to reserve judgment until someone here gets one and really puts it through the ringer.

Offline wellington1869

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 14:08:15 »
Quote from: ripster;122576
Got around to reading Webwit's post:

Show Image


How did you get a picture of webwit's bag?

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline msiegel

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 14:13:35 »
Quote from: webwit;122558
Bernays would have been proud


i agree. beautiful marketing! :D

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Offline Rajagra

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 14:36:38 »
Quote from: webwit;122558
All in all a marketing trick aimed at uninformed people who like to show off how sophisticated they are by buying overpriced crap.


You could easily make similar cheap shots at the Datahand. Even more overpriced, fugly as hell, twice the size it needs to be, has its own inconsistent quirks. At least you can't accuse them of marketing tricks. Or any kind of marketing come to that.

Offline wellington1869

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 14:48:42 »
Quote from: Rajagra;122619
You could easily make similar cheap shots at the Datahand. Even more overpriced, fugly as hell, twice the size it needs to be, has its own inconsistent quirks. At least you can't accuse them of marketing tricks. Or any kind of marketing come to that.


you could, but then you'd become webwit's personal stalking target (on the board and maybe outside) for several months. You want to go thru that? Or expend the kind of time and energy he's willing to expend when he gets obsessed about an 'enemy' on the forum? Or match his crass guttter-personal attacks and match his disruptive thread-hijackings on the forum?

if you can or want to match him on those things, then yes,  you could easily make the same argument about the fugly overpriced datahand...

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline shortround

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 14:49:44 »
Webwit, although many of your points are very valid, you seem to have anger issues with this keyboard, did somebody swing a das at your newborn puppies or something?  Although my das III sits in my closet now, (and has  a few faults) it was a good keyboard for me.  Remember, not everybody is into ultra-progressive hand-shaped keyboards, and most people aren't going to be as keyboard savvy as you.  After all, why drive a with weird tiptronic transmission when you can have a six speed manual?  Not that a das III is a six speed, but it's all personal preference.
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 October 2009, 14:55:21 by shortround »

Offline wellington1869

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 14:53:31 »
Quote from: shortround;122624
It's all personal preference.


lol, dont say that - nothing drives him into a rage (and i'm not being euphemistic) faster than that (fairly obvious and fairly diplomatic) statement.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline msiegel

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 15:25:11 »
:behindsofa:

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Offline o2dazone

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 15:28:40 »
Every time I see a thread where people are nerd raging about webwit, it makes me realize how those people couldnt spot a troll if it kicked them in the ass

Offline wellington1869

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 15:30:23 »
trolls (and their thread hijackings) are one thing, intense and prolonged personal attacks are something else.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline d4rkst4r

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 15:30:38 »
After discovering Filcos, I wouldn't touch a DAS. I doubt it could exceed the build quality of a Filco. I also wouldn't purchase any other keyboard with a glossy black finish. Cherry blue switches are just matter of preference. They're down my list of favorites just above cherry black switches.

Webwit seems to have disdain for both Das and the switches for good reason, but I do detect a bit of additional hostility.
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Offline bigpook

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 16:11:59 »
I am typing on a cherry brown filco. What vitriol do you have for me? : )
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Offline msiegel

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 16:26:14 »
Quote from: webwit;122664
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmYGpxuYpJQ


:O webwit is secretly french!!

XD

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Offline Rajagra

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 16:28:50 »
Quote from: webwit;122654
a Cherry switch is like a metal rubber dome. ... it will never be a true SWITCH, just a poor simulation.


Webwit just lost his grip on reality. We finally pushed him over the edge. Well done everyone! :peace:

Offline bigpook

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 16:31:31 »
Quote from: webwit;122664
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmYGpxuYpJQ


nice. I think webwit is mellowing  a bit.
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Offline msiegel

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 16:32:58 »
Quote from: webwit;122654
[...] irrelevant fud from amateur trolls :)

the BS seems to be a simulation and cost-cutting effort of the buckling leaf


trolling should be left to the professionals ;)

btw, does anyone have pics of all the components of a buckling leaf switch?

if we're ever going to reproduce that technology, we need to understand the materials and construction :)

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Offline d4rkst4r

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 16:37:30 »
Quote from: webwit;122654
People call me a troll, but cannot point out a single point where I am wrong. The rest is irrelevant fud from amateur trolls :)



Troll, no. It sounds to me like you have a purist point of view.

The Cherry switch does fulfill the definition of a switch - its activation closes a circuit. I've experienced some of your complaints on my Deck. I described the action as "frictiony". We can all find issues with any key switch technology and we all have our favorites for different reasons.

What led me to GeekHack was my search for a great keyboard I used to have which was probably an original white alps board. I loved the feel of the keys, but I didn't like the layout and it had an AT interface and left it with a friend when I moved. It's long gone, and I've searched ebay for a similar board with no luck. (I have an AEKII on the way, so there is  hope)

My point is that the criteria for the ultimate keyboard is purely subjective and can include key feel, tactility, layout, looks, durability, interface, features, controller. The ideal switch technology is kind of a moot point for most of us. If everything else is there, or close to it, then we have found our ideal board. If the keyswitches have a high failure rate, or if they have an inferior activation feel, then they're not good enough regardless of the switch technology.

That said, the ultimate switch technology is probably cost prohibitive and holding out for such may be a hopeless endeavour.
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Offline timw4mail

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 16:47:49 »
I like my capacitive buckling spring, thank you very much.

That said, personally I can't stand any ALPS switches, with the exception of the damped sliders of the AEKII. I find them to have a tactile "cliff" that I always fall over the edge.

So yes, each of us has our own favorite type of switch, and least favorite.
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Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
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Offline msiegel

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 17:08:31 »
Quote from: webwit;122685
People who complain that people should be allowed to have personal opinions on keyboards in response to someone who dared to have an opinion about a keyboard.......


the ability to discern and reject self-inconsistencies is a key ingredient of good taste :)

but people don't like to hear that applied to themselves! :p

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Offline wellington1869

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 17:34:28 »
Quote from: msiegel;122693
the ability to discern and reject self-inconsistencies is a key ingredient of good taste :)

but people don't like to hear that applied to themselves! :p


Are people here complaining merely against webwit's right to have a personal opinion about a keyboard?

I could have sworn he does a few other things on a pretty regular basis.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline msiegel

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 18:02:04 »
Quote from: wellington1869;122697
Are people here complaining merely against webwit's right to have a personal opinion about a keyboard?


not me! :)

i just prefer hearing positivity directed toward people, 'cuz cynicism gets me down :D

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Offline d4rkst4r

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 18:07:50 »
Quote from: msiegel;122701
not me! :)

i just prefer hearing positivity directed toward people, 'cuz cynicism gets me down :D


Polyannas make me want to vomit. Don't be a polyanna. I want to hear a critical viewpoint. It doesn't get me down. I tend to learn something once in a while.
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Offline msiegel

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 18:17:53 »
you'd like to hear a prolonged, hyper-critical view of yourself?

suit yourself, but that sounds masochistic to me ;)

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Offline bigpook

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 18:19:24 »
Quote from: d4rkst4r;122702
Polyannas make me want to vomit. Don't be a polyanna. I want to hear a critical viewpoint. It doesn't get me down. I tend to learn something once in a while.


you must be new here : )
you should check out some of the other fine posts by webwit.
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Offline quadibloc

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 18:24:44 »
Quote from: webwit;122654
It is not that the BS is the final answer to all, as the BS seems to be a simulation and cost-cutting effort of the buckling leaf, which for starters consists of more elements and assembly.


That is not a personal opinion, that is a fact.

Back when computers cost millions of dollars, the fact that a computer terminal might cost about $5,000 - an ASR 33 Teletype cost $1,500 IIRC, and those were noisy and anything but cute - was accepted as part of the cost of computing. So it would have been pointless to try to cut costs by skimping on the keyboard. Instead, money was spent on researching the ideal tactile response for a keyboard to have to make the people working on computers more productive.

Even the 3278 keyboard, which was explored here recently in loving detail, was likely economized upon in comparison to the keyboards of IBM's earlier video terminals.

Incidentally, some people have said that the Model F has a better touch than the Model M. That may be, but it's subtle. The real reason for capacitative keyboards is that multiple capacitors in series have a lower capacitance - so the signal from "ghost keys" is weaker. They may not have true N-key rollover, but they come close.

The buckling spring keyboard causes contacts on plastic sheets to touch, just like a rubber dome keyboard, but with moving parts in an integral assembly. So one isn't assembling individual keyswitches first, and then building a keyboard out of them, in the traditional fashion. So costs are cut, provided one has mass production.

Offline quadibloc

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 18:26:02 »
Quote from: msiegel;122703
you'd like to hear a prolonged, hyper-critical view of yourself?


No, but I'd like to hear the bad points of the keyboards I should avoid, before I waste money on something I won't like.

Offline msiegel

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 18:30:59 »
Quote from: quadibloc;122708
No, but I'd like to hear the bad points of the keyboards I should avoid, before I waste money on something I won't like.


well heck yeah :)

i was only objecting to cynical views of members, not of keyboards!

there are plenty of crappy keyboards out there... or ones with hidden gotchas (one of which i happen to own, but i'm satisfied with it and ymmv)

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Offline maxlugar

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 18:51:21 »
GD it! Once again I seem to have missed out on most of the personal attack postings flying back and forth.

WTF does everyone get so worked up?  Is what webwit posts more relevant than what anyone else posts?  Or is it just the way he words his posts?

Technically, I have to agree with most of webwit's points with one exception:
This stupid American redneck douchebag loves his Filco FKBN104MC/EB keyboards with Blue Cherry key switches because they are FUN, FUN, FUN!  So much fun I had to get two.  

I still prefer the HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce 87U for prolonged typing.  It's just that the Topre key switchs are so quiet.  Most modern keyboards are toys compared to my 84-key PC AT keyboards, but aren't toys supposed to be fun?

When I do get an avatar, I will take a page from the Ripster and change my signature to: "The Dumb American" or maybe the "The Dumb and Ugly Redneck American Troll"  :)   I'm not speaking about Americans in general, just me.    ;)
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Offline ch_123

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 19:12:25 »
Quote from: quadibloc;122707
Incidentally, some people have said that the Model F has a better touch than the Model M. That may be, but it's subtle.

I would love to find a Model M that felt anything like a Model F. Having used a Unicomp and Model F side by side for quite a while, they are quite different to eachother. Maybe the earlier Model Ms felt like Model Fs, but I have never used one that wasn't in a horribly worn out condition.

Either way, the difference between the Unicomp and the Model F was sufficient to make me think "Wow..." when I pressed a key on the Model F for the first time.

Quote
The real reason for capacitative keyboards is that multiple capacitors in series have a lower capacitance - so the signal from "ghost keys" is weaker. They may not have true N-key rollover, but they come close.

It's widely acknowledged that the capacitors are not the reason why the Model F feels different to the Model M... And as for NKRO, I once mashed down pretty much every key that I could possibly cover with the palms of my hands (I had about 30+ keys registered) If that isn't NKRO, what the deuce is? =P
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 October 2009, 19:22:59 by ch_123 »

Offline maxlugar

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 19:14:57 »
Quote from: quadibloc;122707
That is not a personal opinion, that is a fact.

Incidentally, some people have said that the Model F has a better touch than the Model M. That may be, but it's subtle.



Sorry, but the Dumb American Redneck Troll is compelled to respectfully disagree with the above statement.  

I do not believe different typing experience between the IBM Model F keyboards (83 and 84 key) vs. the Model M keyboards can be described as subtle.  Buckling spring over capacitive contacts vs. buckling spring over membrane does not result in the same effect...not even close.

I have several Model Fs and over a dozen Model Ms in my collection.  My worst 84-key PC AT Model F keyboard knocks the socks off of my best Model M (a 1390120 from Jan 1986).  Side by side typing makes the Model M feel heavy and dull in comparison to the Model F.

Fact or opinion?  Maybe our favourite European troll can weigh in.   ;)
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Offline msiegel

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 19:17:01 »
Quote from: webwit;122718
I criticized a product, a company and the consumers of the product, with points which no one managed to counter. Oh and red necks just to make sure most of you were included :p (makes mental note of effect)


one day, webwit, we'll find a worthy opponent for you
XD

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Offline maxlugar

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 19:25:34 »
Quote from: webwit;122718
I did not attack or insult anyone personally ;) I grouped you neatly together. I criticized a product, a company and the consumers of the product, with points which no one managed to counter. Oh and red necks just to make sure most of you were included :p (makes mental note of effect)


I do not necessarily disagree with you, my cohort.

Maybe some were insulted by the redneck reference but it my case, it just happens to be true  ;)  I wear the label as a badge of honour.  Anyway, I thought the redneck reference was thrown in because Metadot is based in Texas and everyone knows that Texas has a disproportionate share of proud rednecks.
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Offline maxlugar

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #34 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 19:40:18 »
Quote from: webwit;122719
P.S. You may refer to me as cheese head if it makes you feel better (what the Belgiums call us - they are to the Dutch what Canadians are to you)


Thanks very much for the nice suggestion but we already have an American term for you which makes us feel better   ;)

BTW, we Americans (including the rednecks) love our fellow North American Canucks.
Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

Offline msiegel

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #35 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 19:45:02 »
Quote from: maxlugar;122725
I do not believe different typing experience between the IBM Model F keyboards (83 and 84 key) vs. the Model M keyboards can be described as subtle.  Buckling spring over capacitive contacts vs. buckling spring over membrane does not result in the same effect...not even close.

I have several Model Fs and over a dozen Model Ms in my collection.  My worst 84-key PC AT Model F keyboard knocks the socks off of my best Model M (a 1390120 from Jan 1986).  Side by side typing makes the Model M feel heavy and dull in comparison to the Model F.


i couldn't agree more. when i first received my model m mini, i was surprised and disappointed in the feel -- i was expecting the same feel as the 83-key xt model f, the only ibm board i had used before!  by comparison the mini seemed much too stiff, and not nearly snappy enough.

it would be nice to know what accounts for so much difference. this is only a guess, but maybe the model m's rubber sheet and the different hammer designs play significant parts.

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Offline maxlugar

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #36 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 19:52:26 »
Quote from: msiegel;122735

it would be nice to know what accounts for so much difference. this is only a guess, but maybe the model m's rubber sheet and the different hammer designs play significant parts.


This has been the subject of much debate and there are several geekhack threads that deal with this question.  The results of experiments by ripster, Ch_123 and others would suggest the more tightly wound springs on the Model Fs (more coils per inch) account for most of the difference, although I don't believe there is concensus yet.
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Offline ch_123

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #37 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 20:12:17 »
Someone suggested that perhaps the membrane needed to be struck more forcefully than the capacitive plates did, which may suggest why the mechanism was changed around. As far as I can see, the spring is the only thing that can account for the difference between the two designs, and that theory is the one which explains why IBM would make the mechanism feel of lower quality when there was no apparent advantage in terms of things like cost reduction.

And whatever Ripster may say, it's nothing to do with those godforsaken hammers...

Offline quadibloc

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #38 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 20:16:24 »
Quote from: ch_123;122724
I would love to find a Model M that felt anything like a Model F.

Quote from: maxlugar;122725
I do not believe different typing experience between the IBM Model F keyboards (83 and 84 key) vs. the Model M keyboards can be described as subtle.

Obviously, then, I'm mistaken. I had typed on the original IBM PC's keyboard, and then much later I used the model M, and not having noticed anything, I failed to consider the possibility that it isn't really valid to compare how keyboards feel merely based on memory over that long a period of time.

EDIT: And, as it happened, I did not even need to rely on memory. I have two IBM 122-key keyboards. One uses the Model M style of key, the other, from a 3270 PC, uses "Model F technology", as I recently read. Having it handy for photographs, I tried to type on it. Indeed, the feel of the keys is much lighter than that of a Model M.
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 October 2009, 20:21:47 by quadibloc »

Offline wellington1869

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #39 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 20:35:02 »
Quote from: msiegel;122726
one day, webwit, we'll find a worthy opponent for you
XD


xD we did but he went off keyboards and discovered typewriters ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline timw4mail

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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 21:21:40 »
Wait...what's this thread about, again?
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline maxlugar

  • Posts: 379
Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 21:25:03 »
Quote from: webwit;122737
I agree. The Model F is much better, and the best spring keyboard in existence (only counting key feel, not layout, form factor, etc.). Sandy agrees I think, and I'm a pure amateur compared to him. Never get a buckling leaf keyboard, makes you feel the same about the model F as you do now about the M (a great board if you aren't spoiled).


Agreed.  You do have some redeeming qualities webwit...rather, you do have ONE redeeming quality webwit.  :)  The 84-key PC AT Model F is one of the most sought after keyboards by the Japanese and Korean collectors.  We are all mere "grasshoppers"  next to Master Po Sandy. (reference to the American TV series Kung Fu, starring your personal hero, David Carradine, infamous for extracurricular "hobbies" which you are also guilty of partaking)

The 84-key form factor and layout are indeed archaic.  But there are moments when I almost agree with Sandy's description of the AT's key presses as "euphoric".  I have couple that are in almost NIB condition ( i.e. plastic film still on the silver IBM badge ) and I find them rather attractive for 25 year old keyboards.  I mean next to the very ugly (but sturdy) Northgate Omnikey 102, the 84-key PC AT keyboard is downright sexy. Next to the HHKB Pro 2, not so much.  


BTW, since you agree the Model F is superior to the Model M, how about selling off one or two of your industrial green Model Ms? (preferably at least one with a trackpoint).  I need a couple of those in good condition to add to my Model M collection.  I don't trust the "refurbs" I've seen lately on ebay.
(But I trust you webwit)   :)
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 October 2009, 21:36:57 by maxlugar »
Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

Offline maxlugar

  • Posts: 379
Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 21:27:16 »
Quote from: timw4mail;122749
Wait...what's this thread about, again?


Naughty hobbies shared by webwit and David Carradine.
Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

Offline maxlugar

  • Posts: 379
Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 23:22:54 »
Quote from: ripster;122765
The Model F sounds great if you like nice switches in a archaic form factor and layout.
Show Image


But I'm open minded.  Somebody tell me when a NIB one comes along.


Ah, but one press of those exquisite keys and form factor and layout are all but forgotten.

Join us young Luke...there's no going back.

You will have to pry a NIB 84-key PC AT keyboard (if any still exist) from my cold dead fingers.
Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

Offline msiegel

  • Posts: 1230
Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 23:27:45 »
*mechanical breathing sounds*


oh! uhh.... hey! come on guys, we have to think up some brave and insane model f mods, to bring this classic up to date :)

edit: i created a model f group for us to join, so we can gang up on all the cost engineered buckling-springers ;)
http://geekhack.org/group.php?groupid=5
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 October 2009, 23:34:39 by msiegel »

Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
Model F Mod Log * Open Source Generic keyboard controller

Offline quadibloc

  • Posts: 770
  • Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
  • Layout Fanatic
    • John Savard's Home Page
Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 23:44:10 »
Having looked at my 122-key Model F, I found that two of its keys had problems; the Caps Lock key, when pressed, did not click, but only made a sick sproing noise, and the Enter key in the numeric keypad did click - but tended to stick in the down position.

All I had to do with the Caps Lock key was remove it and replace it, then it worked normally.

With the Enter key, the problem was the levelling device, so removing it and replacing it carefully, and getting the levelling device right (I had to do it twice to get the spring right; the first time, it didn't do anything) eliminated the sticking problem.

Now I will see if this keyboard can be connected to a PC without too much in the way of conversion electronics; I am hopeful, from some of the information seen here.

There is, of course, no fundamental technical reason why Unicomp couldn't make 104-key keyboards using Model F technology, but that would be very unlikely. For one thing, the Model F is significantly noisier than the Model M: I had forgotten that little detail about how you could actually hear the springs springing back on the older keyboards.

Offline maxlugar

  • Posts: 379
Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 23:46:39 »
Quote from: msiegel;122773
*mechanical breathing sounds*


oh! uhh.... hey! come on guys, we have to think up some brave and insane model f mods, to bring this classic up to date :)

edit: i created a model f group for us to join, so we can gang up on all the cost engineered buckling-springers ;)
http://geekhack.org/group.php?groupid=5


I'm in.  I don't expect more than a handful of geekhackers will want to be associated with this dark subculture. Who needs em anyway?
(as I type this post on my Filco blue Cherry keyboard)

I guess you're planning on lumping the 83-key PC/XT diehards in with the 84-key PC AT  fans.  Technically, they both use Model F technology, but the 84-key was never referred to as a Model F by IBM.
Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

Offline msiegel

  • Posts: 1230
Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #47 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 00:17:29 »
mine is open as we speak :)

i'm planning a space bar transplant, adding real Alt and Ctrl keys to the bottom row, a model m key transplant to get a closer-to-ansi layout, hacking off the function and numpad sections, and a new usb controller (the open source one!)

muahahahaaa

Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
Model F Mod Log * Open Source Generic keyboard controller

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 04:49:12 »
Quote from: quadibloc;122777
There is, of course, no fundamental technical reason why Unicomp couldn't make 104-key keyboards using Model F technology, but that would be very unlikely. For one thing, the Model F is significantly noisier than the Model M: I had forgotten that little detail about how you could actually hear the springs springing back on the older keyboards.

The noise is a reason why they should make them again. I think the comparative levels of over-engineering are reasons why they can't be made again. You could probably buy a Filco with the amount of money it would cost to manufacture one, even in mass production.

Quote from: ripster;122781
Hah!  I've yet to see a successful Model F mod.  You guys are too scared to open them up because the foam keeps oozing out.

Might want to start with Retrobrite.  Watch out, 30 year old plastic will probably melt.

And they call Webwit a troll...

Offline quadibloc

  • Posts: 770
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Wired Magazine Reviews the Das Keyboard Professional Model S
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 09:19:58 »
Quote from: ripster;122781
Hah!  I've yet to see a successful Model F mod.


I was thinking that I really didn't want to do anything that involved opening up my rare and irreplaceable 122-key Model F, and this somewhat encourages me in that position.

I suspect that one could do a mod successfully, though... if one were prepared to make one's own printed circuit board to replace the one in the keyboard. I was never that advanced an electronics hobbyist to do such things, and I don't think they sell printed circuit do-it-yourself etching kits in that size anyways, if they even still have such things, at the local Radio Shack. (Now usually known as The Source by Circuit City.)