AEKII muddy feeling?

[roadblock2thesun]

Hey everyone,

I'm am currently playing with a few boards trying to decide what I like. I recently picked up a two AEKII's with dampened white alps, I have a dell AT101 with black alps, some other wierd board with white alps and a filco zero with XM's.

The AEKII's sound nice, but they seem to be kind of muddy, as though pressing the switch requires more effort and produces some drag. I liken it to there being a rubber membrane underneath, some resistance, not much, but just enough to be annoying (to me anyway) I didn't notice this on either the dell or the weird board... is it just me or is this the effect that the "dampeners" have.

[msiegel]

is this the effect that the "dampeners" have.

as far as i know, aekii alps should have the same feeling as black alps during the stroke.

the dampers only affect the top and bottom of the stroke -- they cushion the switch housing against the impact of the slider.

[roadblock2thesun]

So should I still hear the audible click of the switch actuation on the AEK?

[msiegel]

So should I still hear the audible click of the switch actuation on the AEK?

yes, there's a little click near actuation... i think the electrical contacts themselves are silent, but the slider rubs past a bump on the tactile leaf

[wellington1869]

Hey everyone,

I'm am currently playing with a few boards trying to decide what I like. I recently picked up a two AEKII's with dampened white alps, I have a dell AT101 with black alps, some other wierd board with white alps and a filco zero with XM's.

The AEKII's sound nice, but they seem to be kind of muddy, as though pressing the switch requires more effort and produces some drag. I liken it to there being a rubber membrane underneath, some resistance, not much, but just enough to be annoying (to me anyway) I didn't notice this on either the dell or the weird board... is it just me or is this the effect that the "dampeners" have.

just to make sure - do your aekII serial numbers begin with "A" or "M"? They're not mitsumis right? Alps aekII's have serial numbers that begin with "A" and mitsumi aekii serial numbers begin with "M". If you had mitsumis by any chance, that might explain the radical key feel difference as compared to the at101w and some of the other symptoms you're describing.

[roadblock2thesun]

just to make sure - do your aekII serial numbers begin with "A" or "M"? They're not mitsumis right? Alps aekII's have serial numbers that begin with "A" and mitsumi aekii serial numbers begin with "M". If you had mitsumis by any chance, that might explain the radical key feel difference as compared to the at101w and some of the other symptoms you're describing.

They both have A serial numbers, and are definitely Alps switches, I'm guessing they are just "worn out" or maybe full of junk, I still have to clean them...

[wellington1869]

They both have A serial numbers, and are definitely Alps switches, I'm guessing they are just "worn out" or maybe full of junk, I still have to clean them...

interesting. ya a good cleaning might help. you might have to open up each switch to see whats going on in there.
i cant imagine the sliders have worn out, but who knows. I suppose anything's possible.
let us know what you find.

[itlnstln]

There have been reports of ALPS getting stiff as they age.  It might be that the switches are just well-worn.

[wellington1869]

There have been reports of ALPS getting stiff as they age.  It might be that the switches are just well-worn.

does anyone have a theory as to why alps might stiffen (rather than get softer/loosen) with age?  (ie, if it is the case that they stiffen). Seems counterintuitive.
Repeated compression of a spring - leaf spring or coil spring - wouldnt that make it bend/compress over time (thus making the feel seem softer, less resistance)?

[wellington1869]

Dunno WHY but I measure 80g on my well used NeXT and 70g on my NIB Dell AT101W  - both Black complicated ALPS.  I assumed it was because of all the dirt that gets into the switch.

is the assumption then that alps "get dirty"? Or was it the particular conditions under which those particular boards were used? I've used some pretty old alps (the old aekII's i've bought for instance) and I didnt find their internals to be either particularly dirty or particularly stiff or rough or anything else.

I mean wondering if the running theory here is that dirt is 'inherent' to alps. I'm not seeing anything about the alps design for instance that might explain why they'd be any more or less susceptible to dirt than, say, cherries, which similarly have a slider/plunger capped by a key.

just wondering. Alps have been around long enough to be worthwhile in either case, AFAI'm concerned anyway

[roadblock2thesun]

Well, I spent some time playing with these switches last night. They did not seem to be dirty at all, but one thing that I did try was exchanging the springs with one from a board that has seen less use, and they feel much better... It also seems to me that the leaf has been compressed somewhat, but I dont really have enough experience to make that judgment. After switching out several of the springs and playing with some of the less often used switches, it seems to me that what I'm feeling is a matter of the springs having lost their springiness for lack of a better term.

I found these boards in pile, literally of other keyboards. Who knows how long they have been stored in a compressed state, or what kind of use they had gotten in the past...

I once had a boss who kept an extra keyboard around for his toddler. His wife would come in with the baby every now and then, and the kid would just sit and bang away on that keyboard... The things people do.

[itlnstln]

After switching out several of the springs and playing with some of the less often used switches, it seems to me that what I'm feeling is a matter of the springs having lost their springiness for lack of a better term.

This is probably why they feel stiffer over time.  I wonder, too, if there is a change in the springs' metal composition over time where the metal gets harder due to "tempering," so to speak.  I suppose one leads to the other; the loss of springiness being caused by the hardening of the metal.

[wellington1869]

After switching out several of the springs and playing with some of the less often used switches, it seems to me that what I'm feeling is a matter of the springs having lost their springiness for lack of a better term.

I found these boards in pile, literally of other keyboards. Who knows how long they have been stored in a compressed state, or what kind of use they had gotten in the past...

interesting. well loss of springiness would feel muddy alright. Like you say, who knows how they were stored or used etc. It might also just be a form of metal fatigue?

another example tho here of how "fixable" and "moddable" alps switches are by an end-user; if one is committed to repairing their alps board, one can usually do it relatively easily, in this case by swapping springs. It all comes back to how simply the switch is opened and how logically its four component parts go together.

By the way roadblock, I can prolly send you (for free) a ziplock bag full of aekII springs.  If you want them, pm me.

[ch_123]

just to make sure - do your aekII serial numbers begin with "A" or "M"? They're not mitsumis right? Alps aekII's have serial numbers that begin with "A" and mitsumi aekii serial numbers begin with "M". If you had mitsumis by any chance, that might explain the radical key feel difference as compared to the at101w and some of the other symptoms you're describing.

I dont think this is true. I have before me an AEKII of model number M3051 which definitely has 100% genuine and original cream Alps switches.

[msiegel]

I dont think this is true. I have before me an AEKII of model number M3051 which definitely has 100% genuine and original cream Alps switches.

check the serial number (not the model number

[ch_123]

Sure enough, the serial numbers ends with an "A"... I feel like a right idiot now

[msiegel]

ehh, what are you gonna do

[wellington1869]

Sure enough, the serial numbers ends with an "A"... I feel like a right idiot now

begins with an A, you mean

[msiegel]

d'oh! wellington!! XD

[wellington1869]

Where's the emoticon for kicking a man while he's down?

(sorry ch123!)  

[msiegel]

Where's the emoticon for kicking a man while he's down?

(sorry ch123!)  

there's only :deadhorse:

[wellington1869]

there's only :deadhorse:

lol! it'll do i guess

[ch_123]

begins with an A, you mean

Nope, ends.

My example was actually made in Ireland. Perhaps the serial numbering was different for boards made over here.

[wellington1869]

Nope, ends.

My example was actually made in Ireland. Perhaps the serial numbering was different for boards made over here.

interesting; tho since my serial numbers end in numbers, it seems its the starting letter that indicates mistumi vs alps. Does yours also have a starting A on the serial?

if it doesnt, then irish-made aekii's follow some different numbering system (and so i feel pretty foolish

[ch_123]

Dont have it to hand, but as far as I remember, it went like xxxx-xxxx-A, where the Xs represent numbers.

The Cream sliders themselves are quite interesting. When I felt the AEKII for the first time, they felt kinda like some worn out AT102Ws I have typed on. But after swapping the slider into the mechanism of a new-ish Dell AT (and using the spring of the Dell's Black Alps and the Dell's keycap) it felt better. A bit mushier, but quieter and with a better landing. Keycaps seem to account for quite a big difference with these Alps keyboards.

[wellington1869]

Keycaps seem to account for quite a big difference with these Alps keyboards.

also with cherry boards

[timw4mail]

Keycaps account for a large difference in feel regardless of switch.