Author Topic: Is it just me or processing power is stalling?  (Read 24501 times)

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Offline BucklingSpring

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 07:51:25 »
Is it just me or the overall progress in processing power is stalling since couple years?

The Moore’s law seams healthy for transistor counts and storage. Stuff keeps getting greener and smaller… But how about speed?

Today’s top processors are only marginally faster than 3 years ago.

Ok we have re-introduced the good old “parallel computing” well mastered during the golden age of mainframes but our applications are slow to make the move and our domestic OS’ are wasting way too much resources to manage multicores.

Any thoughts?
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Offline timw4mail

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 07:55:29 »
That, and software keeps getting more and more inefficient. If it weren't for such a lazy software industry, perhaps computers would actually feel somewhat faster each generation. But no, the bloat continues, and you need a high end computer to run what should be a simple program.

Size of software programs has risen to absurd levels. The speed has frozen to glacial levels. Is it so much to ask for some optimization so that newer hardware actually seems faster?
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Offline microsoft windows

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 08:15:31 »
That's why I use Windows 2000. I've almost filled up half of my 10-gigabyte hard disk. It's more efficient than Windows XP, and a LOT more efficient than Vista, but still does everything I need. Imagine Vista taking 2 seconds total for the complete shutdown process on a 10-year-old computer!
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Offline BucklingSpring

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 08:15:42 »
Right... I think the top priority for the software industry now is
Making money and protecting money (DRM - Digital Right Management)

When you are large enough and hold the population by the balls (MS), making a good product is not the right solution to make money. Because it would be a one time deal.

A crappy product always need support and improvements. Make sure your client pay for it and you generate a constant stream of income.

But I think the population realizes that and that is why we are also seeing another shift in the software industry. What used to be products models are slowly but surely moving to the service models. No more buy once and use forever. Pay per use is much more revenue efficient.
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Offline ch_123

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 08:23:37 »
My theory is that once CPUs hit the Gigahertz mark, CPU speed became irrelevant. RAM is slowly but surely becoming like this, within the past year or two, it has become quite feasible to stuff your motherboard to it's max capacity of RAM without having to re-mortgage your home.

I think this is going to kill the PC market as we know it. There used to be a time when there was a tangible benefit to average people to buy the latest and greatest computer. Now there just isn't. Also, now that PCs can handle just about every form of multimedia under the sun, there just isn't that need for more powerful machines. Manufacturers are struggling to convince people of the merits of things that they don't need. Gaming is the main driver of demand for high end hardware, but sadly the PC gaming industry is a shadow of what it used to be. As consoles become more popular and capable, I think PC gaming will become more and more of a niche market, and thus not as influential as it used to be.

MS artificially pushed along the hardware market with bloat and (probably deliberately) poor quality OSes, but people have long since copped onto the game, the result of which is Windows 7 - a real throwback to the spartan Windows NT days. I'd say that Windows 7 will be kicking around for a long time, probably longer than Windows XP (basically a downgrade of Windows 2000) so MS now really has to go out of it's way to make it worth people's time and money to adopt a new OS.

Now of course, most of the things that 99% of people need computers for are now hosted elsewhere, so the computer is little more than an appliance for accessing the internet. It's almost cliched at this stage, but the cloud is where it is at. And alot of the traditional establishment is rather scared of things like smart phones and netbooks. The problem here is that people don't need or want fancy PCs, a fact that is exacerbated by the fact that a lot of services have moved to the net, and thus the market share of more profitable machines has taken a huge hit. Intel dislikes the Atom because its eating into the potential target market for it's higher end chips. MS is trying to castrate netbooks with things like Windows 7 Starter Edition and XP licences that restrict how powerful of a machine it can be installed on. In effect, they are telling people how they should use their computers, and what for.

I think it will come back to haunt them. Once ARM releases their dual-core CPUs, and Google comes out with it's Chrome OS, I'd say the likes of Intel and MS are going to have some pretty serious problems. People don't need bloated 1990s workstation OSes and Quad Core CPUs, they want something to read mail, download porn and whatever else takes their fancy.
« Last Edit: Sun, 04 October 2009, 10:10:58 by ch_123 »

Offline BucklingSpring

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 08:24:32 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;122805
That's why I use Windows 2000. I've almost filled up half of my 10-gigabyte hard disk. It's more efficient than Windows XP, and a LOT more efficient than Vista, but still does everything I need. Imagine Vista taking 2 seconds total for the complete shutdown process on a 10-year-old computer!


No kidding. At work we made the move to Office 2007 this year but we didn't renew our computer park. We are back at the dark age when clicking pagedown was like ordering pizza: If you don't get it in 30minutes, delivery is free.

Ok... So for you guys, the processing power is still growing normally but it is the software industry that is slowing the overall progress?

How do you explain pure mhz and BUS speed stalling at the hardware level?
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Offline BucklingSpring

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 08:31:22 »
Quote from: ch_123;122808
(A) Manufacturers are struggling to convince people of the merits of things that they don't need.

(B) I'd say the likes of Intel and MS are going to have some pretty serious problems.


A- What a shocker... hehehehe Welcome to the 1900's
B- GOOOOOOOOD! Can't wait to see  that. It's about f-beep-g time to see law of nature ruling again.

And I buy your explanation for CPU power.
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Offline AndrewZorn

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 10:44:26 »
this is not what moore's law is about
besides the fact that moore's law is more like a attention-grabbing prediction
"how fast game X can be run" does not come close to showing off the technical merits of processors that HAVE in fact been growing quickly

EDIT and the software industry IS the problem
everyones getting lazy
slap together a new game, OS, whatever, but by god don't optimize it or anything, don't fix the bugs (we can just patch it later), and don't pick up the phone when they call because the 2010 version will be out soon.

exceptions exist, google actually makes software look like it is doing its job, but seeing people think Crysis runs slow because the graphics are so good, or that grandma *NEEDS* to update her computer so she can continue emailing for another 5yrs...
just the software guys at work
« Last Edit: Sun, 04 October 2009, 10:47:22 by AndrewZorn »

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #8 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 11:41:11 »
Crysis is one thing, general programs are another. Crysis has two issues: LOTS of graphical detail, and a complex game engine. Engine optimizations are there, but I see that as more of a time thing than neglect.

On the other hand, game textures are huge. I still don't see how you need so many gigabytes of files to play a game.
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Offline williamjoseph

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 11:49:15 »
well, atleast the manufactures have decided to go in a horizontal rout with CPU with multi core units.  it may not be the total power of the unit but the power of multiplication for work done with multi-core cpu's.  i would even think that sex-core or octo-core units will be available within the next 2 years... AMD has currently an experimental line of 8core units they are working out for server applications.

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #10 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 11:55:20 »
Really, I wish multi-core had happened earlier, as I'm a fairly heavy multitasker. Being on my VIA rig right now, with a single core processor, really makes me appreciate multiple cores. Too bad there aren't any dual socket consumer boards anymore...

What's scary is that it is possible to bog down a quad core even with the same sort of software that you have for single cores.
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Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #11 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:03:30 »
crysis has good graphics but not that good.  the textures arent even great.  its pretty much hailed as an extremely poorly coded game.  look at how nice source is, HL2ep2 isnt quite Crysis but runs wayyyy better

just seems like there is less coding voodoo anymore to get performance, just more video cards and nvidia saying "the way it's meant to be played" on a fake video card, and everyone reusing the same old engines just to get some new ideas out to shelves

Offline Hak Foo

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:08:17 »
Quote from: BucklingSpring;122806
Right... I think the top priority for the software industry now is
Making money and protecting money (DRM - Digital Right Management)

When you are large enough and hold the population by the balls (MS), making a good product is not the right solution to make money. Because it would be a one time deal.

A crappy product always need support and improvements. Make sure your client pay for it and you generate a constant stream of income.

But I think the population realizes that and that is why we are also seeing another shift in the software industry. What used to be products models are slowly but surely moving to the service models. No more buy once and use forever. Pay per use is much more revenue efficient.



I recall being incensed when they said very early on, "expect the next version after Vista soon, to ensure people who are paying the annual subscription licenses don't feel ripped off and go back to buying permanent copies for a better value for money."
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Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #13 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:10:33 »
Quote from: timw4mail;122803
That, and software keeps getting more and more inefficient. If it weren't for such a lazy software industry, perhaps computers would actually feel somewhat faster each generation.

I don't know if the software industry is necessarily "lazy," though the end result is the same.  A lot of software is getting much more complicated with the need to interact with more and more 3rd party applications and a bonanza of online interfaces that didn't exist five years ago. Then factor in backward compatibility. Stuff that you were running on Windows 2000 probably has no business running on Windows 7, but a lot of it does and it does so at a cost. Apple, with their smaller market share (especially going back a few years), could dare to say that they were making a total break with their old OS and move to a new generation OS. They suffered some backlash, but came out of it just fine. I'm not sure if Microsoft could have done the same thing without setting off riots.

Then there are all sorts of software that have to process tasks in the background. You gotta have mini programs listening for all sorts of events. All this eats up cycles.

The amount of talent is also a problem. There are a lot more programmers than there were ten years ago, but the number of good programmers is probably a lot less impressive. A lot of software engineers have a tight specialty that they do over and over again. That doesn't lend itself well to contributing to innovation that requires a lot of different kind of code working together in unison and because of that you have a lot of code whose sole purpose is just to bridge messages between related programs or even within the same program.

Add to all of these problems the pressures of the product release cycle and you have the modern software industry.

I just installed Snow Leopard on my two Macs. If you're not familiar with it, Snow Leopard is mostly just a rewrite of Mac OS Leopard to make it more effient and improve its ability to use multiple cores. I like the idea that they'd devote an entire product just to revising a previous work so that it runs leaner.

The migration was a royal pain in the ass as I had a custom webserver on that thing that I use for all my Web development work and I had to rebuild my development environment from scratch after the upgrade. Some stuff still isn't running right with that, but everything is notably faster now. Over time, it'll be worth the hassle. Start-up and shut down are already much much faster on my heavily loaded rig.
« Last Edit: Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:13:47 by hyperlinked »
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Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #14 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:11:53 »
id be totally fine with subscription as long as i was actually paying for something dynamic

as in
not paying $xxx a year to use something they made once and is no different after year 5 than year 3

could be neat if it was just "microsoft windows" as a constantly evolving environment, like a linux install, and you either got in on it early and saw the changes or late and don't know any better

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #15 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:14:10 »
Crysis runs well enough to be playable on a Via Nano 1.6GHz, 2GB of memory, and an S3 Chrome 440 GTX.

Whether you consider that good or not, I don't really care, but there is a limit to optimization when you have the complexity of such a game engine. The amount of physics simulation in Crysis is definitely one of the most impressive I've seen.

Theres a thing about "good" code that I should probably mention. "Good" code is human readable, and is therefore abstracted from the computer, therefore it is by definition less optimized.

Optimized code often uses weird hacks, lower level languages, et cetera, that make it "bad" code, but actually runs better.
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Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #16 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:19:19 »
not that i program professionally but surely that is opinion
it can be human readable and optimized
and i dont think anyone is saying crysis runs badly because they used too many comments and made it easy to follow the logic

i cant even argue this, its a fact that crysis is poorly put together, and that is the reason the hardware requirements are insane, everyone is amazed at 60fps, etc.

despite owning it since release day i finally installed and played it a couple weeks ago and thoroughly enjoyed it.  but when fps drops from 40ish to about 5 just because i am fighting a large spider, hard to defend it technically.
crysis had some vistas but hl2ep2 i still think is more visually pleasing overall (not technically)
« Last Edit: Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:23:15 by AndrewZorn »

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #17 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:32:55 »
Not to say that I'm not impressed with the source engine, but have you not noticed the amount of trees, grass blades, and other objects that have to be rendered?

I understand the feeling that Crysis is poorly optimized, or "poorly put together," but I can't see how it isn't more or less so than any other game. Since it was a game designed for the PC platform exclusively, it definitely would seem to have less of an excuse.  But for the sheer amount of polygons on the screen, the game runs pretty well, I'd say.

The source engine is nice, but its quickly looking its age. The textures are low quality, it doesn't have the number of polygons to properly complement larger textures, and generally runs at larger framerates than are needed. (Except on Intel graphics, which have always been pathetic)
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Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #18 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:55:09 »
well, not necessarily should you be FORCED to upgrade
you can still use a non-current linux install, and ignore feature updates, just use security updates

i dont think the "ownership" thing will happen anytime soon
if you owned it you could legally copy and sell it

funny part is i do not see how their logic does not defeat them in some situations,
for instance,
you buy a copy of windows, you have a key
it is illegal to download (like, "illegally") a copy and use that key
but why?  you have the right to use it...

the whole not-owning thing and legal mumbo jumbo raises so many paradoxes it is impossible to really side either way
is it wrong to skip the commercials on free television?
what about tell a friend the outcome of a football game without the written consent of NBC and the NFL?
wrong to borrow a game from a friend and beat it?
used games?
etc
« Last Edit: Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:58:35 by AndrewZorn »

Offline JBert

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« Reply #19 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 13:29:07 »
Quote from: timw4mail;122803
That, and software keeps getting more and more inefficient. If it weren't for such a lazy software industry, perhaps computers would actually feel somewhat faster each generation. But no, the bloat continues, and you need a high end computer to run what should be a simple program.

Size of software programs has risen to absurd levels. The speed has frozen to glacial levels. Is it so much to ask for some optimization so that newer hardware actually seems faster?
Yes, it is asking too much. Unless you find your niche product, software development is a business with loads of suppliers, each willing to push something that bearably works out of the door (with "bearably" depending on the type of software).

Currently, due to the wages most developers and administrators expect, it is far easier to throw extra hardware at a problem instead of thoroughly fixing it. The problem becomes even nicer when you factor backwards-compatibility in all of this - that's basically why Windows is becoming so large to install.

Anyway, I'm simplifying but that's probably the core issue.
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #20 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 13:35:27 »
i tend to agree with jbert:
building software is currently very difficult (e.g., time consuming), and "easy" solutions to problems that arise during development often carry with them horrendous inefficiencies.

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Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #21 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 13:57:08 »
software is definitely not easy and relies a lot on creativity and lots of people working together, esp when talking about compatibility issues and a complete working system

which is why free software is the key to success



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Offline JBert

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« Reply #22 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 14:11:39 »
Well, no. Free software is something noble to strife for but it is probably not viable just to make open-source software.

After all, everyone likes to get paid. So to run a company on it, you do have to find a market in which you can gather enough interest to get developers yet still have not enough contenders so you can live from the support packages you sell with your software.

Library writers probably are the ones who deserve an awful lot of respect: their products are mostly incorporated in a lot of software bundles, yet they only rarely get repaid for their effort. Its mostly by selling books or consulting services that they can keep working on their code.
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Offline timw4mail

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 14:27:19 »
Stallman is scary. Linus Torvalds is the picture I want to see next time.
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Offline msiegel

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 14:34:31 »
Quote from: ripster;122909
Ugh.  Whatever happened to pics of babes in bikinis around here?


yeah...

note: *nobody post pics of stallman in a bikini*

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Offline timw4mail

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 14:35:24 »
Quote from: msiegel;122915
yeah...

note: *nobody post pics of stallman in a bikini*

(*Scarred for life*)
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Offline BucklingSpring

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 15:27:49 »
Quote from: ripster;122909
Ugh.  Whatever happened to pics of babes in bikinis around here?


Tell me about it.
Chubaka in thong... No thanks
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Offline kode

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 16:03:48 »
If you mean cpu frequency when you say processing power, then yeah, it's sort of stalled. For one thing, even intel figured out eventually that more hertz doesn't necessarily mean more computing, which is sort of why they went back to the pentium m architecture and more or less abandoned the P4 line. Now, there's also the fact that, yes, we are entering what could be called "the great computing depression". Multiple processors/cores is the way to go, and has been for quite some time now. Vector processing (which made Crays so darn awesome) has entered a renaissance as well, with GPGPU and the PS3 and so on. Here's a report from which a bunch of the stuff in that earlier link was taken. It is quite clear that things have changed from the earlier, and there are other problems that set the boundaries now.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #28 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 17:34:36 »
Quote from: ripster;122909
ugh.  Whatever happened to pics of babes in bikinis around here?




The PC I'm on now is getting progressively slower (as in frequent pauses). I'm sure it's caused by Windows XP updates, they are the only real change happening. There is a reason MS wants everyone online, it gives them control of their revenue stream.

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #29 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 19:04:14 »
That...just doesn't work with Legos...
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Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #30 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 12:48:46 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;122877
you buy a copy of windows, you have a key
it is illegal to download (like, "illegally") a copy and use that key


Erm... no it itn't. And that's from an M$ rep himself.

We do a lot of F&R's in work, and as such, encounter a large variety of keys (XP SP1, SP2, Vista, Vista SP2 etc). All of which will not install off each others disc ( A Key for XP SP1 will not work on an install from a SP2 disc). When visited in my previous work by M$, which also did the same (And is the UK's largest PC retailer, however much they suck and I hate them), were told that it is fine, as long as the key is genuine.

Joe Public is not allowed to walk in with his mates key written on a piece of paper, and get us to reinstall that for him. Jane Public walks in for an F&R, and has  the OEM sticker on the side of her machine, but no install media? Fine.

Just for reference, although I'm not a raving fan of M$ and Windows, I'm not of the mind that they are the root of all evil either. It does what it does, usually adequately. It's just not for me most of the time.
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Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #31 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 13:12:14 »
so why do people get 'caught' for DOWNLOADING windows, not trying to activate?

and even if you are able to disprove my example my points still remain

and yes free software is not the key to money but it is best for all, it does not inspire competition but linux right now is not the result of competition anyway

Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #32 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 13:33:21 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;123145
so why do people get 'caught' for DOWNLOADING windows, not trying to activate?

and even if you are able to disprove my example my points still remain

and yes free software is not the key to money but it is best for all, it does not inspire competition but linux right now is not the result of competition anyway


Although the term "downloading software" is in common use (Likely from the Music Industry), what they are actually prosecuted with is more along the lines of  usage without a valid license, infringement of Intelluctual Property etc... it depends on your locality.
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Currently Own :- 1391406 1989 & 1990 : AT Model F 1985 : Boscom 122 (Black) : G80-3000 : G80-1800 (x2) : Wang 724 : G81-8000LPBGB (Card Reader, MY) : Unitek : AT102W : TVS Gold :
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Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #33 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 14:15:45 »
downloading a movie you already own will get you in trouble

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #34 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 14:18:54 »
I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble for downloading Windows.  All you pay for is the key.  There was a rash of people getting in "trouble" for illegal keys/activation, but not for d/ling the actual program.  Hell, I just bought 2 keys (one 64-bit, one 32-bit) for Win7 ($30 ea.) from MS, and they are having me download the software from them.  I am not even getting a pressed CD.  The only thing I can think of is that some ISPs were throttling/monitoring P2P traffic awhile back, and maybe somthing came out of that, but downloading Windows, in and of itself,  is not illegal.


Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #35 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 14:19:30 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;123171
downloading a movie you already own will get you in trouble

So will ripping a movie you already own.  Apples and oranges.


Offline hyperlinked

  • Posts: 924
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« Reply #36 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 16:03:40 »
Quote from: JBert;122904
Well, no. Free software is something noble to strife for but it is probably not viable just to make open-source software.

I don't believe that free software is necessarily that noble of a cause. It's just one model to publish a work and gain leverage into a market. It sometimes results in fantastic products that are above and beyond anything that one organization or person could have done, but let's not confuse open source with good software just because there are some notable examples of good open source software. There's maybe an example or two of good software that isn't free too.

When the open source model of distribution doesn't work for a product, all it does is make it easy for script kiddies to violate the people who were unfortunate enough to adopt the software. Whenever I make use of free software, I always contribute money to the core authors if they're accepting donations. Just in case if their product doesn't catch on, they may at least be motivated to keep supporting their work as a business.
« Last Edit: Mon, 05 October 2009, 16:07:05 by hyperlinked »
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #37 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 16:09:34 »
what's cool about open source licensing is that it enables software evolution by tiny random contributions, rather than relying on expensive product-as-a-whole intelligent design :)

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Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #38 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 17:24:50 »
Quote from: itlnstln;123176
I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble for downloading Windows.  All you pay for is the key.  There was a rash of people getting in "trouble" for illegal keys/activation, but not for d/ling the actual program.  Hell, I just bought 2 keys (one 64-bit, one 32-bit) for Win7 ($30 ea.) from MS, and they are having me download the software from them.  I am not even getting a pressed CD.  The only thing I can think of is that some ISPs were throttling/monitoring P2P traffic awhile back, and maybe somthing came out of that, but downloading Windows, in and of itself,  is not illegal.

Yep. I have bought plain keys of M$ before (Win XP IIRC), and it was a bit cheaper than getting an OEM copy from an E-tailor

Quote from: msiegel;123208
what's cool about open source licensing is that it enables software evolution by tiny random contributions, rather than relying on expensive product-as-a-whole intelligent design :)

It is indeed great. You can have someone go off on a tangent, and develop something that ultimately turns into a "killer feature" whereas it may well get voted down in a "design by comitee" environment.
« Last Edit: Mon, 05 October 2009, 17:27:09 by InSanCen »
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Offline Hak Foo

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 20:10:57 »
I used to admire the Free Software (tm) concept, but then I realized that the desire to force their terms on everyone else is actually costing it utility.

I think the only sensible license choice is the WTFPL.
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Offline timw4mail

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 20:22:41 »
Quote from: Hak Foo;123271
I used to admire the Free Software (tm) concept, but then I realized that the desire to force their terms on everyone else is actually costing it utility.

I think the only sensible license choice is the WTFPL.

Or you could just use the BSD license, which is basically the same thing.
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Offline Hak Foo

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Is it just me or processing power is stalling?
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 21:28:27 »
Quote from: timw4mail;123277
Or you could just use the BSD license, which is basically the same thing.



They still expect you to include indication you took their work.  Too much!

My dream is a world where nobody makes any patent or copyright claim, and so the only driving force to market success is "how can we manufacture cheaper and more efficiently and in higher quality".

Very Stalinist, I know.
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Offline rdh

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« Reply #42 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 21:38:57 »
Quote from: Hak Foo;123298
They still expect you to include indication you took their work.  Too much!


Actually, that's no longer true:

Quote from: www.opensource.org

Historical Note: The original license used on BSD Unix had four clauses. The advertising clause (the third of four clauses) required you to acknowledge use of U.C. Berkeley code in your advertising of any product using that code. It was officially rescinded by the Director of the Office of Technology Licensing of the University of California on July 22nd, 1999. He states that clause 3 is "hereby deleted in its entirety." [...] The license below does not contain the advertising clause.


See http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php for all the gories.
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Offline vyshane

  • Posts: 136
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« Reply #43 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 22:02:19 »
Quote from: timw4mail;122803
That, and software keeps getting more and more inefficient. If it weren't for such a lazy software industry, perhaps computers would actually feel somewhat faster each generation. But no, the bloat continues, and you need a high end computer to run what should be a simple program.


It's not about laziness. Hardware is cheap whereas developer time is expensive. It used to be the other way round.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #44 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 22:06:18 »
Quote from: vyshane;123310
Hardware is cheap whereas developer time is expensive.


Software can be copied at zero cost. What is an expensive cost divided by an infinite number of copies?

Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #45 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 22:25:21 »
i bought my windows 7 key(s) as well, no disc
but still pretty sure it is illegal to get it from nonapproved sources even using your own key
im forgetting where we are going with this anyway

Offline msiegel

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« Reply #46 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 22:32:25 »
omg!
guys, processing power is stalling!!

edit: what's just as bad is, the mysql server on my machine is now consuming 50% of the cpu, but it's under almost no load! this has been a problem for 5 years, and no one has yet figured out why. i say software complexity and current methods of program construction lead inevitably to increasing numbers of irresolvable bugs :(
« Last Edit: Mon, 05 October 2009, 22:38:53 by msiegel »

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Offline vyshane

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« Reply #47 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 22:40:48 »
Quote from: Rajagra;123313
Software can be copied at zero cost. What is an expensive cost divided by an infinite number of copies?


Sure, you can duplicate software at very little cost. However, this does not mean that you will sell an infinite number of copies. The reality is that every software project has a development budget. Also, a lot of software are custom one offs, non-consumer products.

Software is hard. We try to make it work right before trying to make it work fast. However, too often the budget is already spent, and the deadline past before you even contemplate optimisation. In the real world, optimisation tends to be done only if we have a real speed problem. Otherwise, software correctness trumps speed. Software maintainability also trumps speed. And of course, users are constantly clamoring for features.

Offline vyshane

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« Reply #48 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 22:46:45 »
John Siracusa has a good write up about this. It is framed within the context of a Snow Leopard review, but he does a great job of explaining the issues at hand.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/08/mac-os-x-10-6.ars/8

Offline msiegel

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« Reply #49 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 23:01:59 »
those guys are making a heroic effort.

i just can't help feeling that the future lies in another direction...

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