Author Topic: Recommendations for retro/vintage kbs similar to Model M? Or just buy another M? (Read 4346 times)

SpartanD63 · « **on:** Sat, 18 July 2015, 20:13:45 »

Hello! I've been away for a while, enjoying my Model M and trying not to spend money xD

But now, I have need for a USB keyboard for a new computer, as well as a backup for if my 88 Model M dies (doubt it)

I'm looking for:
USB, or convertible to USB with minimal cost (so PS2 would be ok)
Heavy-ish, clicky, tactile keys.
Durable
Preferably older and fairly inexpensive, like how Model M's can be had for cheap (less than $50+shipping on ebay)

Or just pick up a Model M off ebay or something?

Any input would be great, and if anyone can think of any suggestions of keyboards to look out for or try, other than a Model M, I'd appreciate it

fohat.digs · « **Reply #1 on:** Sat, 18 July 2015, 20:22:54 »

The only rational upgrade from a Model M is a Model F.

Soarer's Converter / Teensy will make it USB and programmable.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #2 on:** Sat, 18 July 2015, 20:28:47 »

Quote from: fohat.digs on Sat, 18 July 2015, 20:22:54

The only rational upgrade from a Model M is a Model F.

Soarer's Converter / Teensy will make it USB and programmable.

Is there anything I should watch out for while looking at Model F's? Like how M's have odd terminal versions and non BS versions?

chyros · « **Reply #3 on:** Sat, 18 July 2015, 20:31:42 »

Note that if you're dealing with old keyboards with PS/2 connectors, you will need an active converter to run them on USB. This is distinct from the £1 adapters you can buy online; they will not work. An active adapter is more expensive than one of them, though not terribly so.

The Model F is the logical answer, but it's hard to get one for anything near the price bracket you're looking for. With old, clicky and inexpensive, a White Alps board immediately comes to mind (there is a large variety of boards with these in them).

There are non-BS Model Ms, but they are rubber dome. Good rubber dome apparently, but still rubber dome. Terminal versions are simply less practical and will need either a complex homemade converter or a quite expensive, premade one.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat, 18 July 2015, 20:50:54 »

An active PS2 converter is already on my list, because I fear that, at some point, my future "upgraded" hardware will lack PS2 ports.

A quick ebay search revealed a couple of listings for Model Fs right at $50+shipping. All of them untested, seemingly. Do you guys think it would be worth it? How liable are F's to be dead?
The White Alps sound interesting too, I'll have to look into those.

jdcarpe · « **Reply #5 on:** Sat, 18 July 2015, 21:17:32 »

With a Model F, you want to avoid the 83-key XT keyboard, unless you are a glutton for punishment. You would need a Soarer's converter or xwhatsit controller to even get it speaking a protocol your modern PC will understand. You want an 84-key AT Model F, if you're not looking to mod it other than to convert the AT connector to PS/2, and then optionally to USB.

Another good vintage keyboard with white Alps would be the Northgate Omnikey. It's built like a tank.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #6 on:** Sat, 18 July 2015, 21:34:30 »

Quote from: jdcarpe on Sat, 18 July 2015, 21:17:32

With a Model F, you want to avoid the 83-key XT keyboard, unless you are a glutton for punishment. You would need a Soarer's converter or xwhatsit controller to even get it speaking a protocol your modern PC will understand. You want an 84-key AT Model F, if you're not looking to mod it other than to convert the AT connector to PS/2, and then optionally to USB.

Another good vintage keyboard with white Alps would be the Northgate Omnikey. It's built like a tank.

The 83 key XT seems to be all I can find within that price. Hmmm...

And that Northgate, if ebay is anything to go by, is way out of my price range. Does look pretty nice though, so I'll keep it in mind when money isn't as tight xD

Snowdog993 · « **Reply #7 on:** Sat, 18 July 2015, 21:56:16 »

Quote from: SpartanD63 on Sat, 18 July 2015, 20:13:45

Hello! I've been away for a while, enjoying my Model M and trying not to spend money xD

But now, I have need for a USB keyboard for a new computer, as well as a backup for if my 88 Model M dies (doubt it)

I'm looking for:
USB, or convertible to USB with minimal cost (so PS2 would be ok)
Heavy-ish, clicky, tactile keys.
Durable
Preferably older and fairly inexpensive, like how Model M's can be had for cheap (less than $50+shipping on ebay)

Or just pick up a Model M off ebay or something?

Any input would be great, and if anyone can think of any suggestions of keyboards to look out for or try, other than a Model M, I'd appreciate it

Get another Model M. Take a look at the keyboards in my sig.

CPTBadAss · « **Reply #8 on:** Sat, 18 July 2015, 22:01:21 »

Quote from: jdcarpe on Sat, 18 July 2015, 21:17:32

Another good vintage keyboard with white Alps would be the Northgate Omnikey. It's built like a tank.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD! I was going to suggest the Omnikey too!

Altis · « **Reply #9 on:** Sat, 18 July 2015, 22:29:38 »

If you ultimately want a Model M but with on-board USB connector, Unicomp Model M is a solid bet.

Ludovician · « **Reply #10 on:** Sat, 18 July 2015, 23:56:39 »

Acer KB-101A. Good luck finding one, though.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #11 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:37:04 »

I think I might go with the Model F XT. I've become strangely entranced by the bizarre layout and the ancient protocol, I guess. xD And the Big-Ass Enter keys are a MASSIVE eyesore to me, so the AT is off the list.

Model M: Good, but too much of the same. (I like weird stuff, which is why I have an '88 1393464)
OmniKey: Looks great, but quite expensive. I'll have to pick one up at some point though, I think. The Dvorak change on the DIP switches is pretty cool too.
Acer: I can hardly find any information on it, let alone find one.

Ultimately, I think that the Model F would scratch the itch the best right now. I've also been looking into getting into electronics, so making a Soarer's converter might be a bit fun, if a bit more expensive than anticipated.

Snowdog993 · « **Reply #12 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:43:36 »

Quote from: SpartanD63 on Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:37:04

I think I might go with the Model F XT. I've become strangely entranced by the bizarre layout and the ancient protocol, I guess. xD And the Big-Ass Enter keys are a MASSIVE eyesore to me, so the AT is off the list.

Are you sure about this? I believe the Model F XT has a big ass enter as well as the Model F AT. I think you may have seen a modified F XT model instead.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #13 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:52:36 »

Quote from: Snowdog993 on Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:43:36

Quote from: SpartanD63 on Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:37:04
I think I might go with the Model F XT. I've become strangely entranced by the bizarre layout and the ancient protocol, I guess. xD And the Big-Ass Enter keys are a MASSIVE eyesore to me, so the AT is off the list.

Are you sure about this? I believe the Model F XT has a big ass enter as well as the Model F AT. I think you may have seen a modified F XT model instead.

From the Deskthority wiki, http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/8/84/IBM_XT_top.JPG/800px-IBM_XT_top.JPG the XT had an unusual, ISO-like enter. That wiki image matches the one I'm looking at getting.

rowdy · « **Reply #14 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:58:58 »

That is unusual.

Also the alignment of the modifiers to the left of the keyboard would irk me

Snowdog993 · « **Reply #15 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 02:01:25 »

Quote from: SpartanD63 on Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:52:36

Quote from: Snowdog993 on Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:43:36
Quote from: SpartanD63 on Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:37:04
I think I might go with the Model F XT. I've become strangely entranced by the bizarre layout and the ancient protocol, I guess. xD And the Big-Ass Enter keys are a MASSIVE eyesore to me, so the AT is off the list.

Are you sure about this? I believe the Model F XT has a big ass enter as well as the Model F AT. I think you may have seen a modified F XT model instead.
From the Deskthority wiki, http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/8/84/IBM_XT_top.JPG/800px-IBM_XT_top.JPG the XT had an unusual, ISO-like enter. That wiki image matches the one I'm looking at getting.

That's interesting. I guess I was thinking of the AT keyboard. There is just no separation of the numpad from everything else. I would find that keyboard awkward for me to use. But I suppose it would be pretty cool with the XTAnt mod I have read about.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #16 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 02:10:19 »

I just pulled the trigger. Hopefully, I like it. If not, it'll be a pretty good example of why you don't see keyboards like it anymore. $:-\$

Quote from: rowdy on Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:58:58

That is unusual.

Also the alignment of the modifiers to the left of the keyboard would irk me

Yeah... They're already pretty bad on most boards, but the stepping of the keys makes it pretty bad xD

Quote from: Snowdog993 on Sun, 19 July 2015, 02:01:25

That's interesting. I guess I was thinking of the AT keyboard. There is just no separation of the numpad from everything else. I would find that keyboard awkward for me to use. But I suppose it would be pretty cool with the XTAnt mod I have read about.

The XTAnt mod looks pretty promising, assuming I can't get used to the keyboard layout.

Ludovician · « **Reply #17 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 02:15:33 »

I guess it's a bit late now, but one of the things you can do with the AT is mod it either to ANSI or ISO, which is a fairly simple procedure once you get the case often. That said, mine has been sitting in the garage for months in a disassembled state because I'm too lazy to do it.

Enjoy your ancient keyboard.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #18 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 02:23:35 »

Quote from: Ludovician on Sun, 19 July 2015, 02:15:33

I guess it's a bit late now, but one of the things you can do with the AT is mod it either to ANSI or ISO, which is a fairly simple procedure once you get the case often. That said, mine has been sitting in the garage for months in a disassembled state because I'm too lazy to do it.

Enjoy your ancient keyboard.

I honestly figured it wouldn't be too difficult to convert, but BAEs honestly immediately put me off

and the chaotic design of the XT, it's format which I've never seen, and its "ugly stepchild" reputation make it a bit more interesting to me. That, and the XT seems to be a LOT cheaper for those reasons.

Thanks for the tip though. I'll have to keep it in mind.

Snowdog993 · « **Reply #19 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 02:32:59 »

Quote from: SpartanD63 on Sun, 19 July 2015, 02:23:35

I honestly figured it wouldn't be too difficult to convert, but BAEs honestly immediately put me off and the chaotic design of the XT, it's format which I've never seen, and its "ugly stepchild" reputation make it a bit more interesting to me. That, and the XT seems to be a LOT cheaper for those reasons.

Thanks for the tip though. I'll have to keep it in mind.

Are you going to use it? Or just put it on display in a glass case? The reason why I say this is because I would find that keyboard difficult to use as a daily driver. How much use will you find with a keyboard that is clumsy and awkward to use in the first place? Maybe it's just me, but if it were me, I would have to do something pronto to make it comfortable to use.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #20 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 02:51:26 »

If the layout is honestly that unusable, it'll be relegated to my lesser used machine and I'd keep the Model M as the daily driver. Though looking at it, aside from a couple lesser pressed keys (For me at least) the keys shouldn't be that awkward. Biggest issue would be the left shift, and the control is right where I'd like it. And if it is completely unusable, I'll either do the XTAnt mod, or sell it. I'll have to wait and see.

fohat.digs · « **Reply #21 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 09:21:03 »

Depending on how much blood, sweat, and tears you are willing to invest, along with how much money, it might be worth saving up to do this, to get everything you want, and more:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.msg1048948#msg1048948

ander · « **Reply #22 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 20:03:26 »

Quote from: SpartanD63 on Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:37:04

I think I might go with the Model F XT. I've become strangely entranced by the bizarre layout and the ancient protocol...

Quote from: rowdy on Sun, 19 July 2015, 01:58:58
[re F-AT] That is unusual... Also the alignment of the modifiers to the left of the keyboard would irk me ;)

I think I have to go along with Spartan on this. I don't have an XT, but as they're the most easily obtained F, I've often been tempted.

Concerning its layout: Familiarity and convenience are fine, but there's also a lot to be said about changing things up now and then to keep our brains sharp. (Especially for us older guys—now where'd I leave my walker??)

As a KB-history enthusiast, I also look at the XT and see a significant, influential stage in the PC keyboard's evolution. Many people swore by that layout and bemoaned the Model M's subsequent "tidying up" of the two supplemental key areas.

Finally, there's the geeky joy of having such an unusual piece of hardware on your desk that people see it and go, "Wow, where'd you get that?" It happens. :?)

ander · « **Reply #23 on:** Sun, 19 July 2015, 20:24:24 »

"The 'OK Plateau' is that place we all get to where we just stop getting better at something. Take typing, for example. You might type and type and type all day long, but once you reach a certain level, you just don't get appreciably faster. That's because it's become automatic. You've moved it to the back of your mind's filing cabinet."

– Joshua Foer, journalist, 2006 U.S.A. Memory Champion, author of Moonwalking with Einstein: The Art and Science of Remembering Everything

False_Dmitry_II · « **Reply #24 on:** Mon, 20 July 2015, 00:05:29 »

If ya were still takin suggestions, I'dve told ya to get one of the space invaders from the keypocalypse.

shut up · « **Reply #25 on:** Mon, 20 July 2015, 11:19:19 »

Dell At101w with black alps, if not that just another Model M. Really depends on how much you want to spend on one.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #26 on:** Tue, 21 July 2015, 12:40:09 »

ander nailed it, I think.

False_Dmitry_II, I hadn't even heard of space invader switches. Fascinating and inexpensive, from what I can see. Might be the next board I get.

shut up, I had considered the Dell AT101W, but it seems most prefer the salmon switches to the black ones?

As a side note, the Model F should be here tomorrow (Wed) I'll have to get a teensy and make a converter. (Slightly more expensive than I was planning, but I can use a converter with other boards too, so I don't mind.)

fohat.digs · « **Reply #27 on:** Tue, 21 July 2015, 17:21:22 »

Quote from: SpartanD63 on Tue, 21 July 2015, 12:40:09

I'll have to get a teensy and make a converter. (Slightly more expensive than I was planning, but I can use a converter with other boards too, so I don't mind.)

If you are thinking about getting into the hobby, a versatile box can be very helpful.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58941.msg1348717#msg1348717

PS - I have a few extra 240-degree DIN sockets in black that will fit on a cable for a few bucks shipped US. PM me

bcredbottle · « **Reply #28 on:** Tue, 21 July 2015, 17:29:27 »

Quote from: SpartanD63 on Sat, 18 July 2015, 20:13:45

Hello! I've been away for a while, enjoying my Model M and trying not to spend money xD

But now, I have need for a USB keyboard for a new computer, as well as a backup for if my 88 Model M dies (doubt it)

I'm looking for:
USB, or convertible to USB with minimal cost (so PS2 would be ok)
Heavy-ish, clicky, tactile keys.
Durable
Preferably older and fairly inexpensive, like how Model M's can be had for cheap (less than $50+shipping on ebay)

Or just pick up a Model M off ebay or something?

Any input would be great, and if anyone can think of any suggestions of keyboards to look out for or try, other than a Model M, I'd appreciate it

If you're OK with tactile but non-clicky, I highly recommend an Apple M0116 w/ Salmon Alps. The board is 30 years old and it feels better than the MX clears I'm typing on right now. It's kind of heavy but has an amazing tactile bump. You will need an ADB converter though, which can be had for about $30.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #29 on:** Thu, 23 July 2015, 13:28:43 »

The keyboard arrived yesterday. I'm currently cleaning it up. (waiting for the keys to air dry) I had a minor panic attack when looking it over, as there was what looked to be a small dead spider inside the hole where the leg was. Or maybe just decayed foam. xD

Aside from a little but of rust on the top plate, (which I plan to fix soon) it looks pretty decent. Just need a converter now.

Due to my lack of familiarity with Apple's stuff, I wouldn't have even considered an Apple board.

EDIT: Nope. Dead spider. I took it apart to find a decent number of webs inside. Currently, the most pressing issue for me is not having any reference marks on the f and j keys. The layout isn't too terrible, as I find myself trying to type on it with it on my lap and still hitting the button I intend to.

ANOTHER EDIT TO AVOID A DOUBLE POST: I found this http://i.imgur.com/JxZjH7i.jpg while researching. Turns out that people did have issues with the design that's been standard for the past 30 years, compared to the clumsy design of the XT.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #30 on:** Tue, 04 August 2015, 01:22:38 »

Forgive me for the double post.

I've finally had enough time to get the keyboard set up and get some typing time on it. So far, barring a few minor inconveniences, the layout isn't actually half bad. This entire post has been touch typed on it, and I've tried some gaming.

In terms of layout, the enter key is a bit of a stretch, but due to the way that the key is stepped, it's offset from the rows halfway, allowing it to be easily distinguished by feel. The lack of arrow keys is remedied by using NumLock as it was intended, off for arrows and commands, on for numbers. Aside from that, the layout has felt largely "normal."

In terms of key feel, I give it to the F. Sound is a tossup for me.The M is more muted and plasticky, the F is loud and obnoxiously metallic.

Unexpected bonus? the F takes up less space on my desk, which I kinda like, as it's stupidly cluttered half the time.

So, for less than the cost of the M, if you don't count the converter, which could be used for many boards, I'd say the F XT is worth a try and don't mind an odd layout.

Nai_Calus · « **Reply #31 on:** Tue, 04 August 2015, 01:30:44 »

Model F is love. Model F is life.

Also better for gaming than Model M due to not being stuck with 2KRO.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #32 on:** Tue, 04 August 2015, 01:45:16 »

Quote from: Nai_Calus on Tue, 04 August 2015, 01:30:44

Model F is love. Model F is life.

Also better for gaming than Model M due to not being stuck with 2KRO.

To be honest, for gaming, I never really had issues with 2KRO. Not sure if it was my play style or what. I must say it's nice to not even have a concern about it though.

fohat.digs · « **Reply #33 on:** Tue, 04 August 2015, 07:07:51 »

Quote from: SpartanD63 on Tue, 04 August 2015, 01:22:38

The M is more muted and plasticky, the F is loud and obnoxiously metallic.

The floss-mod is a given for me, on any F I own. It corrects the overtones in exactly the right way.

Shaussman · « **Reply #34 on:** Tue, 04 August 2015, 07:28:42 »

Quote from: SpartanD63 on Tue, 04 August 2015, 01:45:16

Quote from: Nai_Calus on Tue, 04 August 2015, 01:30:44
Model F is love. Model F is life.

Also better for gaming than Model M due to not being stuck with 2KRO.

To be honest, for gaming, I never really had issues with 2KRO. Not sure if it was my play style or what. I must say it's nice to not even have a concern about it though.

It's really going to depend on what games you play/how you play them. I actually ended up getting my first mech because my Dell Quietkey was 2kro and I kept having issues playing GW2+TF2 with it.

SpartanD63 · « **Reply #35 on:** Tue, 04 August 2015, 11:15:19 »

Quote from: Shaussman on Tue, 04 August 2015, 07:28:42

It's really going to depend on what games you play/how you play them. I actually ended up getting my first mech because my Dell Quietkey was 2kro and I kept having issues playing GW2+TF2 with it.

Yeah, most of my games are FPS and I play with a... twitchy(?) style, so that may work around such a low rollover.

Quote from: fohat.digs on Tue, 04 August 2015, 07:07:51

The floss-mod is a given for me, on any F I own. It corrects the overtones in exactly the right way.

I'll have to do that one, especially as it looks easy enough to undo.

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Author Topic: Recommendations for retro/vintage kbs similar to Model M? Or just buy another M? (Read 4346 times)