MA52: Sub 50% Keyboard with a Numpad and Arrows

[Joey Quinn]

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[Joey Quinn]

Reserved

[vivalarevolución]

Compact keyboard prodigies here, Gees guys.

[Norman_the_Owl]

You prefer a number pad to a number row? You dinosaur

[Joey Quinn]

You prefer a number pad to a number row? You dinosaur

I'm happy being a dinosaur if it means maximizing efficiency.

[vivalarevolución]

What about making the columns a solid 15 wide and having the numpad in three columns to access the FN layer for any column?  Could a 15x4 fit into a 60% case?

Overall, love the idea. I'm not a huge fan of the number row, either.

[vivalarevolución]

I guess the trouble with 15 wide is maintaining the stagger, now that I think about it. A 15x4 matrix style layout, like an elongated Planck is doable, though.
 

[Joey Quinn]

Yeah when you start messing with layouts you realize that maintaining a stagger becomes difficult. Could you make a mockup of the first idea you listed?

[vivalarevolución]

Yeah when you start messing with layouts you realize that maintaining a stagger becomes difficult. Could you make a mockup of the first idea you listed?

Maybe, if you could provide me a link to a keyboard layout mockup editor.  I'm not too familiar with those and I'm feeling too lazy to look at the moment.

I noticed that I did not word my first idea very well.  I meant that a third numpad column would allow the user to access all the numbers without having to go through the FN layer.

Although I'm quite sure a third left numpad column on your board can't be done in 15 units without screwing up the staggering.  It would require taking away a half unit elsewhere in each row or just make it 15.5 units wide.  By that point, it's just as wide as or wider than a 60%, which kinda voids the whole idea of an ultra compact.

I really like your idea, though.  I find it easier to move to the side than reach to the top row for numbers and such.

[vivalarevolución]

Actually, I just noticed your stagger is a little off.  Your third row is shifted a quarter unit to the left of the usual shift row stagger, similar to the Filco Minila.  The third row should have a 1.75 shift, not 1.5, in order to mimic the usual stagger.  Not sure if that was intentional.  Seems that you guys did that with the MA42 as well.  Do you notice that slight shift in staggering to cause a problem when typing?

There basically doesn't seem to be a way to make my idea work with less than 15.5 units without screwing up the staggering or sacrificing keys.  I think 12 keys per row is about the minimum to make a keyboard usable.

[Joey Quinn]

Actually, I just noticed your stagger is a little off.  Your third row is shifted a quarter unit to the left of the usual shift row stagger, similar to the Filco Minila.  The third row should have a 1.75 shift, not 1.5, in order to mimic the usual stagger.  Not sure if that was intentional.  Seems that you guys did that with the MA42 as well.  Do you notice that slight shift in staggering to cause a problem when typing?

There basically doesn't seem to be a way to make my idea work with less than 15.5 units without screwing up the staggering or sacrificing keys.  I think 12 keys per row is about the minimum to make a keyboard usable.

Apple M whatever stagger bro! No I didn't notice a difference in stagger. It was done to allow for "better looking" mods and a shorter board.

As far as length is concerned I'm not sure how I feel about 14.5u. It may be too long but in order to shorten the board I'd need to mess with the stagger or accept that the 3rd num pad column be staggered. Neither one sounds like a great option. I want the board shorter but I feel like I've removed every key possible.
All I know is my min requirement is a 10u home row because Dvorak uses 10 unlike qwerty's 9. 12 seems like a good number, unless someone only uses mods on one side.

) I may try that last idea and see how it goes. The MA42 will be a pretty good test bed for ideas like that.

[vivalarevolución]

Cool.  Using mods on one side seems like it would be tiring.  Can't wait to see how things develop.  Sub 60% or bust, right? 

In the meantime, I think that I'm going to play around with a non-staggered 4x15.  Kinda like a Dihedral 79, except without all the large mods and a fifth row.  I ditched the large mods on the sub 60%, and didn't find it to be a problem.

I'll stop thread crapping now.

[Joey Quinn]

Sub 60% or bust is right!

I'm excited to see what you try.

[vivalarevolución]

Sub 60% or bust is right!

I'm excited to see what you try.

I put in an order with Jack at Ortholinear Keyboards.  Inspired by your idea, I just went with a 4x15 matrix.  That way, I can put a 3x4 numpad area to the left or right of the main typing area. We'll see how I like it.  I will track my progress on a thread here.

[Joey Quinn]

Sub 60% or bust is right!

I'm excited to see what you try.

I put in an order with Jack at Ortholinear Keyboards.  Inspired by your idea, I just went with a 4x15 matrix.  That way, I can put a 3x4 numpad area to the left or right of the main typing area. We'll see how I like it.  I will track my progress on a thread here.

Honestly even messing with how your board is programmed can really change how typing feels. I spend the first week with my boards reprogramming them several times every day, just trying weird ideas. Hopefully you like the matrix layout, it doesn't really work for me.

[vivalarevolución]

I had a Planck, which I just sold, so I am accustomed to the matrix layout.  While not exactly ergonomic, it's not too bad, and allows the maximum amount of keys to fit into a small footprint. 

[Joey Quinn]

I may go with this layout just to see if it'll work. I removed the right mods and changed the planned layout a bit.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a39ec720234225b7bd4f998d1a5bce15

[Jujucohn]

I have muscle memory for my right hand for the num pad so I would rather a 60/40/???  keyboard + a number pad on the other side of my mouse.

[Joey Quinn]

I have muscle memory for my right hand for the num pad so I would rather a 60/40/???  keyboard + a number pad on the other side of my mouse.

I think you just want a keyboard with a separate numpad placed to the right of your mouse. Unless you're willing to take risks there isn't much you can change other than reprogramming a board.

[Jujucohn]

I may go with this layout just to see if it'll work. I removed the right mods and changed the planned layout a bit.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a39ec720234225b7bd4f998d1a5bce15

What about space centerd but smaller with backspace and enter flanking it. 

[Joey Quinn]

I may go with this layout just to see if it'll work. I removed the right mods and changed the planned layout a bit.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a39ec720234225b7bd4f998d1a5bce15

What about space centerd but smaller with backspace and enter flanking it.

That gave me a few ideas. I'd prefer to keep enter in-between space and backspace because it'll allow my thumbs to press those keys from their resting positions. One of my goals is for the board to fit a standard keyset so I'll see what I can pull off.

Edit: the reason I have enter where off to the left is so it can be used with the numpad like you normally would.

[Joey Quinn]

I may go with this layout just to see if it'll work. I removed the right mods and changed the planned layout a bit.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a39ec720234225b7bd4f998d1a5bce15

I'm trying the MA52 test layout this week on my MA42 and it'll determine the final layout for the MA52.

[vivalarevolución]

I was thinking about this again.  My latest idea was basically a JD45 with three straight columns thrown on the right side as a miniature number pad.  I can share a layout when I have time later this evening.

The total amounts to 16 units wide & 4 units tall, but that's the smallest size I can get while maintaining proper staggering, keeping a usable number of keys (in my view), and without relegating any numbers to the FN layer.  So rather than a number row, you have a number pad to the side, in a less than 65% package.

[Joey Quinn]

I was thinking about this again.  My latest idea was basically a JD45 with three straight columns thrown on the right side as a miniature number pad.  I can share a layout when I have time later this evening.

The total amounts to 16 units wide & 4 units tall, but that's the smallest size I can get while maintaining proper staggering, keeping a usable number of keys (in my view), and without relegating any numbers to the FN layer.  So rather than a number row, you have a number pad to the side, in a less than 65% package.

If you want a PCB for that let me know, I have all the JD45 KiCAD stuff and the modification would be pretty quick.

Still a bit too big for me, I think I'll go ahead on the no right mods MA52 (Which now needs to be renamed....)  )

[joey]

Is the KLE in the first post the final design? How would this look for qwerty?

[Joey Quinn]

Is the KLE in the first post the final design? How would this look for qwerty?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a39ec720234225b7bd4f998d1a5bce15

This is the final layout or at least the one I'm testing. You can rearrange it to be qwerty if you'd like.

[joey]

Made a start: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/ffa76a91afcfc8a7c797 in case anyone wants to finish it off. Otherwise I'll try finish it over the next few days.

[vivalarevolución]

I was thinking about this again.  My latest idea was basically a JD45 with three straight columns thrown on the right side as a miniature number pad.  I can share a layout when I have time later this evening.

The total amounts to 16 units wide & 4 units tall, but that's the smallest size I can get while maintaining proper staggering, keeping a usable number of keys (in my view), and without relegating any numbers to the FN layer.  So rather than a number row, you have a number pad to the side, in a less than 65% package.

If you want a PCB for that let me know, I have all the JD45 KiCAD stuff and the modification would be pretty quick.

Still a bit too big for me, I think I'll go ahead on the no right mods MA52 (Which now needs to be renamed....)  )

I might take you up on that offer.  Although the design that I have scratched out is a little different.  Left shift would be 1.5 units instead of 1.75 units, therefore making right shift 1.5 units as well.  That messes up the stagger, but if I am experimenting with a layout for myself, I don't care about messing up the stagger.

In the center of my bottom row would be a 1 unit key, with 1.5 unit keys on either side of that center key.  Still trying to figure out the other bottom row modifiers.  I don't like 1.75 unit keys, because they aren't stable when pushed on the edges.  That said, the far right key probably will be a 1.75 unit key.

I imagine that your PCB design skills are up to the task, though.

[neverused]

I was thinking about this again.  My latest idea was basically a JD45 with three straight columns thrown on the right side as a miniature number pad.  I can share a layout when I have time later this evening.

The total amounts to 16 units wide & 4 units tall, but that's the smallest size I can get while maintaining proper staggering, keeping a usable number of keys (in my view), and without relegating any numbers to the FN layer.  So rather than a number row, you have a number pad to the side, in a less than 65% package.

If you want a PCB for that let me know, I have all the JD45 KiCAD stuff and the modification would be pretty quick.

Still a bit too big for me, I think I'll go ahead on the no right mods MA52 (Which now needs to be renamed....)  )

I would love to get a copy of the files if they are available.

[Joey Quinn]

I was thinking about this again.  My latest idea was basically a JD45 with three straight columns thrown on the right side as a miniature number pad.  I can share a layout when I have time later this evening.

The total amounts to 16 units wide & 4 units tall, but that's the smallest size I can get while maintaining proper staggering, keeping a usable number of keys (in my view), and without relegating any numbers to the FN layer.  So rather than a number row, you have a number pad to the side, in a less than 65% package.

If you want a PCB for that let me know, I have all the JD45 KiCAD stuff and the modification would be pretty quick.

Still a bit too big for me, I think I'll go ahead on the no right mods MA52 (Which now needs to be renamed....)  )

I would love to get a copy of the files if they are available.

Sorry but I can't do that. I could maybe send you the gerbers if you want to have one produced but I need to check with JD because despite the files being mine the board is still "his".

[neverused]

That's fair, maybe I can get some pointers on making my own in the future, but I would still like the gerbers as a reference.

[Joey Quinn]

That's fair, maybe I can get some pointers on making my own in the future, but I would still like the gerbers as a reference.

I'd happily help you, I know a few other people who want PCB help so I guess I can work on a lesson or something. 

As a start just watch and follow the making blinky videos on youtube. They'll help you get more comfortable with KiCAD.

[neverused]

Awesome thank you!

[Joey Quinn]

I might take you up on that offer.  Although the design that I have scratched out is a little different.  Left shift would be 1.5 units instead of 1.75 units, therefore making right shift 1.5 units as well.  That messes up the stagger, but if I am experimenting with a layout for myself, I don't care about messing up the stagger.

In the center of my bottom row would be a 1 unit key, with 1.5 unit keys on either side of that center key.  Still trying to figure out the other bottom row modifiers.  I don't like 1.75 unit keys, because they aren't stable when pushed on the edges.  That said, the far right key probably will be a 1.75 unit key.

I imagine that your PCB design skills are up to the task, though.

All of that sounds perfectly doable. Only thing is if it requires more work than expected or you want a fully custom one I may ask for a PCB or 2 as payment.

[vivalarevolución]

I might take you up on that offer.  Although the design that I have scratched out is a little different.  Left shift would be 1.5 units instead of 1.75 units, therefore making right shift 1.5 units as well.  That messes up the stagger, but if I am experimenting with a layout for myself, I don't care about messing up the stagger.

In the center of my bottom row would be a 1 unit key, with 1.5 unit keys on either side of that center key.  Still trying to figure out the other bottom row modifiers.  I don't like 1.75 unit keys, because they aren't stable when pushed on the edges.  That said, the far right key probably will be a 1.75 unit key.

I imagine that your PCB design skills are up to the task, though.

All of that sounds perfectly doable. Only thing is if it requires more work than expected or you want a fully custom one I may ask for a PCB or 2 as payment.

Understandable.  I don't expect you to help me out for free.

[Joey Quinn]

I might take you up on that offer.  Although the design that I have scratched out is a little different.  Left shift would be 1.5 units instead of 1.75 units, therefore making right shift 1.5 units as well.  That messes up the stagger, but if I am experimenting with a layout for myself, I don't care about messing up the stagger.

In the center of my bottom row would be a 1 unit key, with 1.5 unit keys on either side of that center key.  Still trying to figure out the other bottom row modifiers.  I don't like 1.75 unit keys, because they aren't stable when pushed on the edges.  That said, the far right key probably will be a 1.75 unit key.

I imagine that your PCB design skills are up to the task, though.

All of that sounds perfectly doable. Only thing is if it requires more work than expected or you want a fully custom one I may ask for a PCB or 2 as payment.

Understandable.  I don't expect you to help me out for free.

That's not really what I meant, if it's a quick mod I'll do it for free but if I need to take a few days to get everything rearranged I'd like a PCB.

[vivalarevolución]

Alright, we can chat and figure everything out.

[Joey Quinn]

The new MA52 test layout is awkward to get used to, backspace is where enter used to be and you press enter with your left thumb.