Topre Realforce worth it?

[cheebs]

What does posture have to do with it?  I'm not comparing it to posture...

Posture is ergonomics.  This reminds me of the old (ok, not so old) adage of the guy that visits his doctor:

Guy: "Doc, should I eat organic or cage-free eggs?  I heard they can really help lower your risk of heart disease."
Doc: "You should stop smoking.."

And yet, your comment is still irrelevant.  If you have good/bad posture that doesn't change the relevance of the mouse position. 
I agree with you 100% that posture is important. It just isn't important to the discussion about mouse position with TKL vs. Full Size.

They're both ergonomic factors, one of which is more significant than the other.  Are you lost, or confused?

And that has to do with the superiority of the mouse position with TKL how?  That's right..it doesn't.

So you're lost, then.  The discussion is (was) about TKL vs full size, and the compromises made when choosing either.  In most cases, the minor ergonomic improvement a TKL offers is so insignificant it's not worth sacrificing a boatload of programmable keys for.  If you really want to improve ergonomics at your desk, improve your posture, get a chair or get a palm rest or something.   That's the gist of what I'm saying, reworded a bit.  Don't be purposely dense just for the sake of
argument.  We're talking about the same subject.  Obviously your seating position is different than the mouse position on your desk.  No ****.  Think about what you were discussing in the first place.

[Polymer]

So you're lost, then.  The discussion is (was) about TKL vs full size, and the compromises made when choosing either.  In most cases, the minor ergonomic improvement a TKL offers is so insignificant it's not worth sacrificing a boatload of programmable keys for.  If you really want to improve ergonomics at your desk, improve your posture, get a chair or get a palm rest or something.   That's the gist of what I'm saying, reworded a bit.  Don't be purposely dense just for the sake of
argument.  We're talking about the same subject.  Obviously your seating position is different than the mouse position on your desk.  No ****.  Think about what you were discussing in the first place.

You're saying there is a minor improvement with TKL..I think it is quite significant.  You're saying you're sacrificing a boatload of programmable keys..for you...for everyone else, that is a complete non factor.  It would be nice if you could actually think outside of your little world, I know it is hard but everyone has to grow up at some point...

What I find funny is you're saying..think about what you were discussing in the first place..which is TKL vs. Fullsize..and the position of the mouse is one of those things.....and YOU are bringing up posture. 

[cheebs]

So you're lost, then.  The discussion is (was) about TKL vs full size, and the compromises made when choosing either.  In most cases, the minor ergonomic improvement a TKL offers is so insignificant it's not worth sacrificing a boatload of programmable keys for.  If you really want to improve ergonomics at your desk, improve your posture, get a chair or get a palm rest or something.   That's the gist of what I'm saying, reworded a bit.  Don't be purposely dense just for the sake of
argument.  We're talking about the same subject.  Obviously your seating position is different than the mouse position on your desk.  No ****.  Think about what you were discussing in the first place.

You're saying there is a minor improvement with TKL..I think it is quite significant.  You're saying you're sacrificing a boatload of programmable keys..for you...for everyone else, that is a complete non factor.  It would be nice if you could actually think outside of your little world, I know it is hard but everyone has to grow up at some point...

What I find funny is you're saying..think about what you were discussing in the first place..which is TKL vs. Fullsize..and the position of the mouse is one of those things.....and YOU are bringing up posture.

That is my take, you don't have to agree.  Ah, well, it seems you've degraded the discussion to insults on character.  I'm done, then.  Good night.

[Polymer]

I have no issues with you feeling full is superior..and for whatever reasons you have.

But you're bringing up posture...I guess when your own words come back to bite you the only thing to do is run.  I guess I'm not the only "lost" one...

[cheebs]

I have no issues with you feeling full is superior..and for whatever reasons you have.

But you're bringing up posture...I guess when your own words come back to bite you the only thing to do is run.  I guess I'm not the only "lost" one...

Alright, I guess I'll keep going..  My words aren't "coming back to bite me", I say what I mean, and that's it.  You're misunderstanding.  Any fool can determine that mouse position is independent of your posture.  Yes, they're two separate things.  Red is not blue, water is not grass.  Congratulations, astonishing discovery.  That's clear.  You know I'm aware of that, yes?  The point I'm making, is that if your overall posture improves, the mouse position difference of a couple of inches becomes inconsequential, and the "problem" of minor mouse distance goes away.  At this point, your overall ergonomics at the desk are really good, and the minor distance from mouse to keyboard being reduced is negligible.  This doesn't deny the fact that the mouse is slightly closer to the keyboard, it just makes it a moot point.

[Polymer]

I have no issues with you feeling full is superior..and for whatever reasons you have.

But you're bringing up posture...I guess when your own words come back to bite you the only thing to do is run.  I guess I'm not the only "lost" one...

Alright, I guess I'll keep going..  My words aren't "coming back to bite me", I say what I mean, and that's it.  You're misunderstanding.  Any fool can determine that mouse position is independent of your posture.  Yes, they're two separate things.  Red is not blue, water is not grass.  Congratulations, astonishing discovery.  That's clear.  You know I'm aware of that, yes?  The point I'm making, is that if your overall posture improves, the mouse position difference of a couple of inches becomes inconsequential, and the "problem" of minor mouse distance goes away.  At this point, your overall ergonomics at the desk are really good, and the minor distance from mouse to keyboard being reduced is negligible.  This doesn't deny the fact that the mouse is slightly closer to the keyboard, it just makes it a moot point.

I know what you're trying to say...that doesn't change the fact that the mouse is in a much better position.

Now obviously, both are opinions.  You're saying with other proper ergonomics it doesn't matter.  I'm saying regardless of other proper ergonomics, it does matter. 

Given you rarely use the mouse at all(according to you), you're probably not well suited to make this judgement right?   Not from an experience standpoint anyways...and yet most people that have made the switch will comment on how much better the mouse position is....I mean, given your need for the numberpad, have you even used TKL extensively? 

[nuzey]

Isn't it obvious that Topre is worth it if you (thread starter) post it in GH? Use some common sense. I am sure you already know many people here in GH have Topre boards as their daily driver.

And I don't understand why some people always fight over this. All these are just personal preferences, some may like it and some don't, so please don't take it the wrong way guys. Understand what is personal preference. Be mature and not brawl over different opinions because it is OPINION. Grow up kids 

[Hypersphere]

Another way of calculating the worth of a RF87u occurred to me. I recently completed a mod of my CM Novatouch that included installing 55g domes and silencing rings along with lubing the stabilizers and topping it off with a blend of two sets of Vortex double-shot PBT caps. It is just my opinion of course, but these modifications have made the Novatouch as much of a pleasure to use as my RF 87ub 55g.

Considering the cost of the Novatouch, used donor board for the 55g domes, silencing rings, keycaps, and my time and effort, if I were to consider the modified Novatouch as the functional equivalent of my RF 87ub 55g, then the Realforce board  is certainly more than worth its price.

OTOH, I prefer not trying to put a price on the fun I had modding my Novatouch. By the same token, the "worth" of my RF is not something I compute in dollars and cents, but by the incalculable pleasure I derive from using a high-quality computer interface for work and play.

[maroder]

Isn't it obvious that Topre is worth it if you (thread starter) post it in GH? Use some common sense. I am sure you already know many people here in GH have Topre boards as their daily driver.

Of course many here on GH probably are using Topre switches - what better place to ask for an opinion on this switches. I am very thankful for all the input and options I got in this thread so far. I am quite certain now I will have to get a Realforce. If only to see what all the fuss is about .-)

[Macsmasher]

Get a 55g and never look back..

Hm, ok I was planing on getting the 45g, as this is the only one available with the Layout in ISO/German.
45g not worth it then?

I currently own a 55g 87U, a variable 87U and a 45g HHKB. The 55g is my least favorite. I like the lighter switches.

[Polymer]

I can see why some might like 55g on RF..45g on the RF seems slightly lighter than on the HHKB...not sure why.  I think 55g is a bit too heavy though..

If you're used to reds/browns/blues you'll probably want 45g Topre.
As you start approaching Clears, Blacks, etc...you'll probably want 55g Topre

Although everyone's preferences may vary..I'm just looking at comparable weight and effort.

[apolotary]

If I got sick of bottoming out on FC660C, would I want a RF87u 55g or a 55g version of Royal Kludge?

[Polymer]

If you're sick of bottoming out with Topre, stop using Topre..

You're going to bottom out...you can make it so you're just bottoming lightly, but you're not going to stop bottoming out...

30g Topre, you might be able to..because it is so light at the drop is so minor, you can probably type really lightly with that and not bottom out...but then what would be the point?

[apolotary]

If you're sick of bottoming out with Topre, stop using Topre..

You're going to bottom out...you can make it so you're just bottoming lightly, but you're not going to stop bottoming out...

30g Topre, you might be able to..because it is so light at the drop is so minor, you can probably type really lightly with that and not bottom out...but then what would be the point?

True, maybe I should just get a break from Topre

[Polymer]

But I think you should ask yourself why it is such a big deal if you bottom out..

[apolotary]

But I think you should ask yourself why it is such a big deal if you bottom out..

The key travel is what bothering me. It takes me a while to reach the bottom compared to ALPS or Cherry MX switches.

I used to like that when I just bought it, but now, for some reason, it gets annoying after a few hours of typing.

[Polymer]

The travel distance is the same...

And if you mean time wise, are you sure you're finding a measurable difference?  If so it should impact people's typing speed right?  But I think you'd find that some people actually type faster on Topre (and some type slower) so they're probably very similar. 

If it is just a feel thing..that's fair enough...but if you think not bottoming out helps you type faster...It doesn't..

[apolotary]

The travel distance is the same...

And if you mean time wise, are you sure you're finding a measurable difference?  If so it should impact people's typing speed right?  But I think you'd find that some people actually type faster on Topre (and some type slower) so they're probably very similar. 

If it is just a feel thing..that's fair enough...but if you think not bottoming out helps you type faster...It doesn't..

Yeah it's very subjective, although I don't care that much about typing speed. It's just the Topre switches feel like I'm overcoming the surface tension of some liquid, and when I do it and I reach the bottom, my fingers get stuck for a fraction of a second, right when the "thock" sound happens. That delay annoys me, it feels like my keys are about to get stuck and not bounce back.

Again, that's just my opinion, pretty sure if I try typing on 55g Topre in Yodobashi camera, I'll sell all my other keyboards just to get my hands on it.

[Polymer]

The travel distance is the same...

And if you mean time wise, are you sure you're finding a measurable difference?  If so it should impact people's typing speed right?  But I think you'd find that some people actually type faster on Topre (and some type slower) so they're probably very similar. 

If it is just a feel thing..that's fair enough...but if you think not bottoming out helps you type faster...It doesn't..

Yeah it's very subjective, although I don't care that much about typing speed. It's just the Topre switches feel like I'm overcoming the surface tension of some liquid, and when I do it and I reach the bottom, my fingers get stuck for a fraction of a second, right when the "thock" sound happens. That delay annoys me, it feels like my keys are about to get stuck and not bounce back.

Again, that's just my opinion, pretty sure if I try typing on 55g Topre in Yodobashi camera, I'll sell all my other keyboards just to get my hands on it.

You're still going to bottom out.  You might feel it is snappier though...

There isn't a delay there, it is probably the sound or something with the feel..I'm not saying it isn't important to you, it is and that is a perfectly valid reason.....I'm just saying there isn't a delay...

[strict]

I find the bottom out feel more pleasant on 45g Topre, it requires less force to activate and you end up with less momentum/force at the bottom of the keystroke. I think 55g is a little more harsh due to the increased amount of force required.

[Sed8op8]

I find the bottom out feel more pleasant on 45g Topre, it requires less force to activate and you end up with less momentum/force at the bottom of the keystroke. I think 55g is a little more harsh due to the increased amount of force required.

the sound of my spacebar on my rf87/w/55g literally is music to my ears I just want to hit it all day long. I feel like 55g better sounds and feels better. There is a little bit more of a bottom out due to the extra force on the dome when it collapses but I love that. It's all subjective and I feel 45 g has its merits

[romevi]

Just a quick follow-up.

After a few days of using this, I'm not going to beat around the bush: this keyboard actually is pretty awesome. I love the way it feels on the fingers, and doesn't seem to give my fingers fatigue as my previous two keyboards did. The caps feel pretty darn smooth, and I don't seem to type as many errors as I did previously (could be placebo, but hey).

That said, I still miss my numpad, but that can be remedied by buying another one. I'm using this Realforce at work (I'm the only one here with a non-104 keyboard), and having a numpad where I work is almost required.

I still seem to accidentally press "D" and "S," as I like to keep my left hand on home row while using my mouse. I guess I'm a severely heavy typist after all. My previous two keyboards are a Unicomp and QuietKey, and those, in my opinion, require much more force than this Topre does.

Also, it may just be me being super picky, but are any of the other caps ABS? I know the space bar is advertised as being the only ABS cap on the board, but it seems to me that the Shifts, Enter, Back Space, Caps Lock, and Ctrl seem to have the same black color and shine on top as the space bar.

That said, after just a few days, I'm already seeing why the bandwagon for cup rubber is so loud and big. I'm already eyeing the anniversary edition just to have the different-colored caps and slightly off-black case!

[nuzey]

That said, after just a few days, I'm already seeing why the bandwagon for cup rubber is so loud and big. I'm already eyeing the anniversary edition just to have the different-colored caps and slightly off-black case!

Hahaha this is why GH makes your wallet thin  )

[Air tree]

Nope, all the keys beside the spacebar are PBT, and the PBT spacebar is being made at the moment, if you hadn't noticed.


And on the different keycaps front, just wait for the topre-mx sliders that bunny and JT are producing. Just check out the Jt debut GB thread for more information.

[romevi]

Nope all the keys beside the spacebar are PBT, and the PBT spacebar is being made at the moment, if you hadn't noticed.


And on the different keycaps front, just wait for the topre-mx sliders that bunny and JT are producing. Just check out the Jt debut GB thread for more information.

Yeah, I definitely noticed the PBT space bar. I wasn't too concerned about that as I'm getting it eventually (Massdrop), but just wanted to know about the other caps.

Definitely keeping an eye out for the MX sliders.

[ssdt]

Nope, all the keys beside the spacebar are PBT, and the PBT spacebar is being made at the moment, if you hadn't noticed.


And on the different keycaps front, just wait for the topre-mx sliders that bunny and JT are producing. Just check out the Jt debut GB thread for more information.

Made by who? This is awesome!

[Air tree]

Nope, all the keys beside the spacebar are PBT, and the PBT spacebar is being made at the moment, if you hadn't noticed.


And on the different keycaps front, just wait for the topre-mx sliders that bunny and JT are producing. Just check out the Jt debut GB thread for more information.

Made by who? This is awesome!

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71630.0

More are going to be on the CTRL ALT store later, and probably with other CTRL alt keycap sets.

[ssdt]

Nope, all the keys beside the spacebar are PBT, and the PBT spacebar is being made at the moment, if you hadn't noticed.


And on the different keycaps front, just wait for the topre-mx sliders that bunny and JT are producing. Just check out the Jt debut GB thread for more information.

Made by who? This is awesome!

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71630.0

More are going to be on the CTRL ALT store later, and probably with other CTRL alt keycap sets.

Thanks, dude

[Macsmasher]

Anyone here like the variable weight version? I don't see anyone who likes it...

I have a 55g 87U, a variable silent 87U and an HHKB. I've been mostly been using the HHKB lately because of the form factor, but the variable is my favorite by far. I should also point out that I'm Colemak touch typist, which greatly reduces finger travel. If I were still qwerty, I might favor the 55g.

[apolotary]

Does anyone like Realforce 86u with variable switches? Suddenly got one for like super cheap at one of the local auctions.

Gotta give a try to lighter Topre switches. If I still don't like them, I'll sell/trade my Topre boards.

[ander]

Re the first two pages of this thread: I'm into KBs as much as anyone—but when I see people spending days ranting at each other about which KB feature is superior to another, I can't help thinking, "Is it possible you guys need to, you know, get out a bit more...?"  :?)

After a few days of using this, I'm not going to beat around the bush: this keyboard actually is pretty awesome... After just a few days, I'm already seeing why the bandwagon for cup rubber is so loud and big.

You're echoing what my friends have said about Topres, and what I've experienced. They feel so different from other mechanicals, they can take some getting used to. But that doesn't mean they're not good.

I think a fair number of people who buy Topres turn around and resell them without taking adequate time to "tune into" them. This gives the rest of us chances to get them cheaply. (I got my barely-used Type Heaven locally for $50!)

I have a 55g 87U, a variable silent 87U and an HHKB. I've been mostly been using the HHKB lately because of the form factor, but the variable is my favorite by far... I should also point out that I'm Colemak touch typist, which greatly reduces finger travel...

Not to drift the topic (at least I referred to it a bit above, right?), but I'm really curious about the Colemak layout. Like most people I know, I learned QWERTY in high school, I switched to Dvorak years ago and have never regretted it. (It's hard not to LOL at people who say it's no better!) Did you give Dvorak a go, or did you go directly to Colemak? Or maybe you never used QWERTY? I'm just wondering if you can give me a comparison between D. and C. If C.'s that much better, I'd consider switching to it myself.

[TopreFan333]

(I got my barely-used Type Heaven locally for $50!)

That's a steal! I got one barely-used for $100 and quite happy with it.

[ander]

(I got my barely-used Type Heaven locally for $50!)

That's a steal! I got one barely-used for $100 and quite happy with it.

There are many wealthy people in Vancouver who get tired of stuff and don't really care how much they get for it. (I'm not one of them.)

[romevi]

Used it for a little over a week, and I'm actually having Topre withdrawal. I've been on vacation now for over a week and I'm counting the days I can go back to the office just to use my Topre.

I was with a friend around my office and gave the excuse that we should head there so I can use the bathroom. While he waited I snuck to my desk and did some typing for a few seconds.

What have I become...

[cheebs]

The travel distance is the same...

And if you mean time wise, are you sure you're finding a measurable difference?  If so it should impact people's typing speed right?  But I think you'd find that some people actually type faster on Topre (and some type slower) so they're probably very similar. 

If it is just a feel thing..that's fair enough...but if you think not bottoming out helps you type faster...It doesn't..

Incorrect.  I actually type roughly 10% - 15% faster on MX switches, even after a few month's worth of using exclusively Topre.  So, not bottoming out actually does help me type faster.  I do bottom out a lot of my keystrokes, but some either don't bottom out at all, or do very lightly.  With Topre, although you have a nice tactile response and certainty that the key was pressed, it is a bit of a hindrance.  The tactile bump is so large that it drags the finger down with it, and it's quite hard to move on to the next key quickly.  On browns, for example, I don't have this problem as I can just lightly tap the key and move on to the next one.  I don't have a problem with scissor switches either, because the travel distance is so short.  My guess would be that the enormous tactile bump Topre provides is great if you're learning to type, or just aren't typing all that fast, but for me it just gets in the way.

[Polymer]

Incorrect.  I actually type roughly 10% - 15% faster on MX switches, even after a few month's worth of using exclusively Topre.  So, not bottoming out actually does help me type faster.  I do bottom out a lot of my keystrokes, but some either don't bottom out at all, or do very lightly.  With Topre, although you have a nice tactile response and certainty that the key was pressed, it is a bit of a hindrance.  The tactile bump is so large that it drags the finger down with it, and it's quite hard to move on to the next key quickly.  On browns, for example, I don't have this problem as I can just lightly tap the key and move on to the next one.  I don't have a problem with scissor switches either, because the travel distance is so short.  My guess would be that the enormous tactile bump Topre provides is great if you're learning to type, or just aren't typing all that fast, but for me it just gets in the way.

It isn't incorrect.  It might not apply to you (I even say for some they'll type slower) but for others , they're finding they type just as fast if not faster.  Even one user here that was a big proponent of not bottoming out, claiming you had to not bottom out to type your fastest, finally used Topre and did so at the same speeds and sometimes faster....thus permanent killing his theory even for his own usage. 

People will type differently with different setups.  If you type your fastest without bottoming out then that works for you..but if you look at the fastest typers out there, they're bottoming out...but forgetting about them, there is nothing to suggest that bottoming out slows people down as a general statement because it doesn't. 

[cheebs]

Incorrect.  I actually type roughly 10% - 15% faster on MX switches, even after a few month's worth of using exclusively Topre.  So, not bottoming out actually does help me type faster.  I do bottom out a lot of my keystrokes, but some either don't bottom out at all, or do very lightly.  With Topre, although you have a nice tactile response and certainty that the key was pressed, it is a bit of a hindrance.  The tactile bump is so large that it drags the finger down with it, and it's quite hard to move on to the next key quickly.  On browns, for example, I don't have this problem as I can just lightly tap the key and move on to the next one.  I don't have a problem with scissor switches either, because the travel distance is so short.  My guess would be that the enormous tactile bump Topre provides is great if you're learning to type, or just aren't typing all that fast, but for me it just gets in the way.

It isn't incorrect.  It might not apply to you but for others, they're finding they type just as fast if not faster.  Even one user here that was a big proponent of not bottoming out, claiming you had to not bottom out to type your fastest, finally used Topre and did so at the same speeds and sometimes faster....thus permanent killing his theory even for his own usage. 

People will type differently with different setups.  If you type your fastest without bottoming out then that works for you..but if you look at the fastest typers out there, they're bottoming out...but forgetting about them, there is nothing to suggest that bottoming out slows people down as a general statement because it doesn't. 

"If it is just a feel thing..that's fair enough...but if you think not bottoming out helps you type faster...It doesn't.."

That is incorrect.  You're making a general statement about what does / doesn't make all of us type faster.  It doesn't apply to all, I am at least one counterexample, so yeah, it's incorrect.  Logic 101 bruh.  I'm curious as to what bull**** you're going to come up with next, lol.

[Polymer]

"If it is just a feel thing..that's fair enough...but if you think not bottoming out helps you type faster...It doesn't.."

That is incorrect.  You're making a general statement about what does / doesn't make all of us type faster.  It doesn't apply to all, I am at least one counterexample, so yeah, it's incorrect.  Logic 101 bruh.  I'm curious as to what bull**** you're going to come up with next, lol.

Read the whole post.   

But if you want to go the logic 101...You typing 10% faster on MX and not bottoming out doesn't mean that (not bottoming out) is the reason you're typing faster.  Some people hate browns and will type 15% faster on them compared to their favorite reds...There are many different reasons for that.  You are, of course, associating MX and you not bottoming out to the increase in speed and that might be the case for you..or it might not.

Or we can flat out just say, you're giving up speed in not bottoming out...that's probably very true..you don't think so..but what is your wpm?

And for clarification..I do believe you type faster on MX...but that has nothing to do with bottoming out...That might be how you want to type but pretty much as a proven fact, no one is typing at high speed (120wpm) without bottoming out somewhat....look at the super fast typers and they all bottom out...

To show you how flawed your "logic" is...you are fine with Scissor switches yet you bottom out with them...so you can bottom out and type just as fast...It isn't bottoming out that is the issue...

[Elrick]

Used it for a little over a week, and I'm actually having Topre withdrawal. I've been on vacation now for over a week and I'm counting the days I can go back to the office just to use my Topre.

I was with a friend around my office and gave the excuse that we should head there so I can use the bathroom. While he waited I snuck to my desk and did some typing for a few seconds.

What have I become...

YES we now see here a typical Thorpie Addict needing some urgent remedial care  .

Need to purchase MORE RealForce keyboards, STAT  .

[cheebs]

"If it is just a feel thing..that's fair enough...but if you think not bottoming out helps you type faster...It doesn't.."

That is incorrect.  You're making a general statement about what does / doesn't make all of us type faster.  It doesn't apply to all, I am at least one counterexample, so yeah, it's incorrect.  Logic 101 bruh.  I'm curious as to what bull**** you're going to come up with next, lol.

Read the whole post.   

But if you want to go the logic 101...You typing 10% faster on MX and not bottoming out doesn't mean that is the reason you're typing faster.  Some people hate browns and will type 15% faster on them compared to their favorite reds...There are many different reasons for that.  You are, of course, associating MX and you not bottoming out to the increase in speed but there is actually nothing to indicate that is actually the reason.

Hahaha, yep, I knew you were going to say that, knew it.  Ok, just think about it practically.  What is the reason I'm typing faster, can you tell me?  You can't, because you can't observe.  I can.  For some people, that's simply it.  The bottoming out "encouragement" that Topre provides messes with some individuals' response and recognition of a key press.  It slows them down.  For me, when I try to type fast on a Topre keyboard, that characteristic of the switch makes me feel like I have to totally bottom out for the stroke to register.  It feels as though a necessary delay has been introduced to my typing speed.  We're not robots, we're humans.  Maybe the keypress was actually registered long before I bottomed out?  Does that change the way my brain and fingers react?  NO.  So when I tell you that yes, I am typing faster on these switches because I feel that I don't have to completely bottom out every keystroke, that's it.  It's what I feel, and how I react.  It's an axiom of my typing process.

EDIT: You asked how fast I type.  The fastest I've been able to hit is 135 wpm, although typically day to day I am at 115 to 120.  Also you mentioned that I bottom out on scissor switches.  While that's true, my brain's reaction to bottoming out on scissor switches vs. bottoming out on Topre is quite different, likely due to the difference in travel distance and actuation force.  Bottoming out on a scissor switch does not slow me down nearly as much as bottoming out on a Topre switch.

[Polymer]

"If it is just a feel thing..that's fair enough...but if you think not bottoming out helps you type faster...It doesn't.."

That is incorrect.  You're making a general statement about what does / doesn't make all of us type faster.  It doesn't apply to all, I am at least one counterexample, so yeah, it's incorrect.  Logic 101 bruh.  I'm curious as to what bull**** you're going to come up with next, lol.

Read the whole post.   

But if you want to go the logic 101...You typing 10% faster on MX and not bottoming out doesn't mean that is the reason you're typing faster.  Some people hate browns and will type 15% faster on them compared to their favorite reds...There are many different reasons for that.  You are, of course, associating MX and you not bottoming out to the increase in speed but there is actually nothing to indicate that is actually the reason.

Hahaha, yep, I knew you were going to say that, knew it.  Ok, just think about it practically.  What is the reason I'm typing faster, can you tell me?  You can't, because you can't observe.  I can.  For some people, that's simply it.  The bottoming out "encouragement" that Topre provides messes with some individuals' response and recognition of a key press.  It slows them down.  For me, when I try to type fast on a Topre keyboard, that characteristic of the switch makes me feel like I have to totally bottom out for the stroke to register.  It feels as though a necessary delay has been introduced to my typing speed.  We're not robots, we're humans.  Maybe the keypress was actually registered long before I bottomed out?  Does that change the way my brain and fingers react?  NO.  So when I tell you that yes, I am typing faster on these switches because I feel that I don't have to completely bottom out every keystroke, that's it.  It's what I feel, and how I react.  It's an axiom of my typing process.

EDIT: You asked how fast I type.  The fastest I've been able to hit is 135 wpm, although typically day to day I am at 115 to 120.  Also you mentioned that I bottom out on scissor switches.  While that's true, my brain's reaction to bottoming out on scissor switches vs. bottoming out on Topre is quite different, likely due to the difference in travel distance and actuation force.  Bottoming out on a scissor switch does not slow me down nearly as much as bottoming out on a Topre switch.

So it isn't the act of bottoming out but Topre itself...which is fair enough...and what I said..some people are going to type just as fast or faster..and some will type slower.  The act of bottoming out is not the cause of you typing slower.  You're associating the two but that isn't the cause of it...

But would love to see someone type at 130wpm and not bottom out....Be the first to prove people can!

And before you mention what you observe..people don't always know what is going on..they think they do...In their mind it is working a certain way but it isn't. 
Perfect example - Jack Nicklaus - one of the greatest golfers ever.  Would say you would set up a certain way and have your club face a certain way to get a draw or fade...Basically, path determined starting point and the ball would turn the way the face was...it ends up he had it 100% wrong and it was actually the other way around.  In his head, this was exactly what he was doing.  The reality though, was completely different. 

I'm sure you believe what you see 100%...but you're also the one commenting about TKL right?

[cheebs]

"If it is just a feel thing..that's fair enough...but if you think not bottoming out helps you type faster...It doesn't.."

That is incorrect.  You're making a general statement about what does / doesn't make all of us type faster.  It doesn't apply to all, I am at least one counterexample, so yeah, it's incorrect.  Logic 101 bruh.  I'm curious as to what bull**** you're going to come up with next, lol.

Read the whole post.   

But if you want to go the logic 101...You typing 10% faster on MX and not bottoming out doesn't mean that is the reason you're typing faster.  Some people hate browns and will type 15% faster on them compared to their favorite reds...There are many different reasons for that.  You are, of course, associating MX and you not bottoming out to the increase in speed but there is actually nothing to indicate that is actually the reason.

Hahaha, yep, I knew you were going to say that, knew it.  Ok, just think about it practically.  What is the reason I'm typing faster, can you tell me?  You can't, because you can't observe.  I can.  For some people, that's simply it.  The bottoming out "encouragement" that Topre provides messes with some individuals' response and recognition of a key press.  It slows them down.  For me, when I try to type fast on a Topre keyboard, that characteristic of the switch makes me feel like I have to totally bottom out for the stroke to register.  It feels as though a necessary delay has been introduced to my typing speed.  We're not robots, we're humans.  Maybe the keypress was actually registered long before I bottomed out?  Does that change the way my brain and fingers react?  NO.  So when I tell you that yes, I am typing faster on these switches because I feel that I don't have to completely bottom out every keystroke, that's it.  It's what I feel, and how I react.  It's an axiom of my typing process.

EDIT: You asked how fast I type.  The fastest I've been able to hit is 135 wpm, although typically day to day I am at 115 to 120.  Also you mentioned that I bottom out on scissor switches.  While that's true, my brain's reaction to bottoming out on scissor switches vs. bottoming out on Topre is quite different, likely due to the difference in travel distance and actuation force.  Bottoming out on a scissor switch does not slow me down nearly as much as bottoming out on a Topre switch.

So it isn't the act of bottoming out but Topre itself...which is fair enough...and what I said..some people are going to type just as fast or faster..and some will type slower.  The act of bottoming out is not the cause of you typing slower.  You're associating the two but that isn't the cause of it...

But would love to see someone type at 130wpm and not bottom out....Be the first to prove people can!

The act of bottoming out (on Topre) is exactly the cause of me typing slower.  If I could just turn off the "switch feeling" area of my brain and type like a robot, maybe I would type just as fast, but that's obviously not possible.  My brain is unable to accurately predict exactly when to release my finger when I actuate the switch, so it just keeps going until I hit the bottom.  This bottoming out slows me down, as I have to do it for every press to be sure that I actually pressed the key.  On an MX switch, I don't need to do that.  The tactile response is different, and tells my brain "you can let go now", before the bottoming out occurs.  The result for me is less time and effort, which yields a higher speed.

I still bottom out on MX switches, just not on every press.  If I had to guess, I'd say about 30% of my keypresses do not bottom out.

EDIT: Regarding the "I don't know what's going on in my brain" comment.  It's inconsequential.  I don't need to understand the complex neurological processes that cause this to happen, because the end result is that it happens, I bottom out the switch, and that prevents me from releasing my finger quickly and pressing the next key.  I purposely bottom out the keys on Topre, because that is the response I receive from the switch, telling me that press needs to be complete before I press the next switch.  I am unable to reliably press the key halfway on a Topre keyboard while typing fast.  I cannot perform this action (as I can on an MX switch) which saves me time and effort.  I have to bottom out the Topre switch.  That slows me down.  To isolate the problem further, this only occurs on the bottoming out action of a Topre switch.  If your next response is something along the lines of "Well, that's your brain, not the Topre switch" I will remind you that we are humans using keyboards, not robots.  These characteristics of the switch are meaningless without the context of a human mind.  A machine would never bottom out a switch, as it's not technically required.  For many humans, it is.

[sami77]

does feeling different from Noppoo Capacitive Or the same ?

[daerid]

The act of bottoming out (on Topre) is exactly the cause of me typing slower.  If I could just turn off the "switch feeling" area of my brain and type like a robot, maybe I would type just as fast, but that's obviously not possible.  My brain is unable to accurately predict exactly when to release my finger when I actuate the switch, so it just keeps going until I hit the bottom.  This bottoming out slows me down, as I have to do it for every press to be sure that I actually pressed the key.  On an MX switch, I don't need to do that.  The tactile response is different, and tells my brain "you can let go now", before the bottoming out occurs.  The result for me is less time and effort, which yields a higher speed.

I still bottom out on MX switches, just not on every press.  If I had to guess, I'd say about 30% of my keypresses do not bottom out.

EDIT: Regarding the "I don't know what's going on in my brain" comment.  It's inconsequential.  I don't need to understand the complex neurological processes that cause this to happen, because the end result is that it happens, I bottom out the switch, and that prevents me from releasing my finger quickly and pressing the next key.  I purposely bottom out the keys on Topre, because that is the response I receive from the switch, telling me that press needs to be complete before I press the next switch.  I am unable to reliably press the key halfway on a Topre keyboard while typing fast.  I cannot perform this action (as I can on an MX switch) which saves me time and effort.  I have to bottom out the Topre switch.  That slows me down.  To isolate the problem further, this only occurs on the bottoming out action of a Topre switch.  If your next response is something along the lines of "Well, that's your brain, not the Topre switch" I will remind you that we are humans using keyboards, not robots.  These characteristics of the switch are meaningless without the context of a human mind.  A machine would never bottom out a switch, as it's not technically required.  For many humans, it is.

I type measurably faster on Topre switches than on MX switches.

Everybody's different.

[cheebs]

The act of bottoming out (on Topre) is exactly the cause of me typing slower.  If I could just turn off the "switch feeling" area of my brain and type like a robot, maybe I would type just as fast, but that's obviously not possible.  My brain is unable to accurately predict exactly when to release my finger when I actuate the switch, so it just keeps going until I hit the bottom.  This bottoming out slows me down, as I have to do it for every press to be sure that I actually pressed the key.  On an MX switch, I don't need to do that.  The tactile response is different, and tells my brain "you can let go now", before the bottoming out occurs.  The result for me is less time and effort, which yields a higher speed.

I still bottom out on MX switches, just not on every press.  If I had to guess, I'd say about 30% of my keypresses do not bottom out.

EDIT: Regarding the "I don't know what's going on in my brain" comment.  It's inconsequential.  I don't need to understand the complex neurological processes that cause this to happen, because the end result is that it happens, I bottom out the switch, and that prevents me from releasing my finger quickly and pressing the next key.  I purposely bottom out the keys on Topre, because that is the response I receive from the switch, telling me that press needs to be complete before I press the next switch.  I am unable to reliably press the key halfway on a Topre keyboard while typing fast.  I cannot perform this action (as I can on an MX switch) which saves me time and effort.  I have to bottom out the Topre switch.  That slows me down.  To isolate the problem further, this only occurs on the bottoming out action of a Topre switch.  If your next response is something along the lines of "Well, that's your brain, not the Topre switch" I will remind you that we are humans using keyboards, not robots.  These characteristics of the switch are meaningless without the context of a human mind.  A machine would never bottom out a switch, as it's not technically required.  For many humans, it is.

I type measurably faster on Topre switches than on MX switches.

Everybody's different.

Yup.  I wish I could type faster on Topre, but it just doesn't seem to jive with me.  Are you faster on Topre than any MX switch, or just specific ones?

[Macsmasher]

Re the first two pages of this thread: I'm into KBs as much as anyone—but when I see people spending days ranting at each other about which KB feature is superior to another, I can't help thinking, "Is it possible you guys need to, you know, get out a bit more...?"  :?)

After a few days of using this, I'm not going to beat around the bush: this keyboard actually is pretty awesome... After just a few days, I'm already seeing why the bandwagon for cup rubber is so loud and big.

You're echoing what my friends have said about Topres, and what I've experienced. They feel so different from other mechanicals, they can take some getting used to. But that doesn't mean they're not good.

I think a fair number of people who buy Topres turn around and resell them without taking adequate time to "tune into" them. This gives the rest of us chances to get them cheaply. (I got my barely-used Type Heaven locally for $50!)

I have a 55g 87U, a variable silent 87U and an HHKB. I've been mostly been using the HHKB lately because of the form factor, but the variable is my favorite by far... I should also point out that I'm Colemak touch typist, which greatly reduces finger travel...

Not to drift the topic (at least I referred to it a bit above, right?), but I'm really curious about the Colemak layout. Like most people I know, I learned QWERTY in high school, I switched to Dvorak years ago and have never regretted it. (It's hard not to LOL at people who say it's no better!) Did you give Dvorak a go, or did you go directly to Colemak? Or maybe you never used QWERTY? I'm just wondering if you can give me a comparison between D. and C. If C.'s that much better, I'd consider switching to it myself.

Never tried Dvorak. I went from 30+ years of qwerty to Colemak. I'm glad I switched. However, the transition took longer than I anticipated. It took about six months to get completely comfortable with it. I know some guys switch between layouts without issues, but I decided needed to be 100% Colemak for it to be second nature and haven't typed qwerty for several years now. I even have Colemak on my phone hahaha. I'm a strong 80 wpm on 10FastFingers, so not a lot faster than what I was. But it is more comfortable. It was worth it to me.

[daerid]

Yup.  I wish I could type faster on Topre, but it just doesn't seem to jive with me.  Are you faster on Topre than any MX switch, or just specific ones?

Most anything but Clears. I'm just about comparable on Clears w/ Topre.

[didjamatic]

I've tried all varieties of Realforce and for me it's either all 45g or the 45g variable.
55g is fun but if you type A LOT like I do, all day long every day, it can be taxing on your pinkies. 

I sold my 55g and have used 45g and variables for years and love them.   

[mikes41720]

Okay, so I just got in my Realforce 87U 55g keyboard today. No buyers remorse here! Here are some of my first impressions with the keyboard:

1.) Boy, this thing is heavy. Really well built like a tank!
2.) The stock keycaps feel so nice to type on. Even though they aren't the thick PBT, they still feel fairly secure.
3.) I love the patented Topre thock! It sounds amazing.
4.) Typing on these 55g switches is a really great feeling experience. The keys feel so secure when you bottom out on them, it's a smooth and buttery experience.
5.) I like how quiet they are but they still offer so much tactility in the press. They're definitely much quieter than my MX Browns, which I'm sure my office mates will appreciate as well.

[digi]

Okay, so I just got in my Realforce 87U 55g keyboard today. No buyers remorse here! Here are some of my first impressions with the keyboard:

1.) Boy, this thing is heavy. Really well built like a tank!
2.) The stock keycaps feel so nice to type on. Even though they aren't the thick PBT, they still feel fairly secure.
3.) I love the patented Topre thock! It sounds amazing.
4.) Typing on these 55g switches is a really great feeling experience. The keys feel so secure when you bottom out on them, it's a smooth and buttery experience.
5.) I like how quiet they are but they still offer so much tactility in the press. They're definitely much quieter than my MX Browns, which I'm sure my office mates will appreciate as well.

Welcome to perfection