Yet another "noob needs a keyboard" thread

[ehird]

The story as it is:

Circa 2006, I buy a new Model M for cheap. Months later, I stop using it due to buying an iMac; they lack PS/2 ports and I didn't have a converter (still don't, or rather not one that works).

Skipping forwards to a few months ago, I thought mechanical keyswitches were another name for buckling springs. Remembering that the clicks were too loud, and the force required to press a key was too great, I decided that I respected them for their engineering, but wouldn't want to use one. A few months ago, I read the HotHardware article and watched the accompanying video, and was enlightened. I decided I'd like one!

A few days ago, I started browsing around for them. About two days ago, I hit on my first geekhack link. Yesterday, I became addicted.

I have narrowed it down to three contenders: the Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Touch, the Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Click Otaku, and the Realforce 87U (the Happy Hacking Keyboard's position of modifier keys is unacceptable to me; I do not swap the caps lock and control key).

For the non-Otaku Filco, I'd buy a set of blank replacement keycaps. Can anyone confirm that all the bottom-row modifiers have the same size, so that I could buy a set (in the case of the Otaku; another, otherwise) and rid myself of that horrible orb?

I know I've given scant information, but does anyone have any suggestions?

P.S. In case anyone doesn't know, you can turn off the highly-irritating WYSIWYG editor here; search for "Message Editor Interface".

[o2dazone]

And heres the average response to the noob question:

What type of stuff do you do on your computer? What do you do mostly?

Topre switches are horrible for gaming (like any switch, it's acceptable, but I definitely found more joy on cherry browns and even cherry blues). On the contrary I make less typing mistakes on my HHKB - because of the crisper collapse of actuation.

[ehird]

And heres the average response to the noob question:

What type of stuff do you do on your computer? What do you do mostly?

I code and blather on the internet. (Slowing the latter is probably good for humanity, bad for me.)

Topre switches are horrible for gaming (like any switch, it's acceptable, but I definitely found more joy on cherry browns and even cherry blues). On the contrary I make less typing mistakes on my HHKB - because of the crisper collapse of actuation.

In theory, I like games, but I'm not sure I'm good enough at them to warrant them changing my keyboard choice.

Unless the right switches will turn my 7 kills, 33 deaths into soundcards with my name on them?

[xfocus]

I code and blather on the internet. (Slowing the latter is probably good for humanity, bad for me.)

I'm a coder and own both a topre and blue cherry board.  They both have their advantages.  The topre feels much more down to business when I'm trying to get work done.  It's a comfortable soft feel.  The blue cherry board on the other hand is more of an "experience" and gives you an ego boost with each clicky stroke.  It's almost as if each click announces that you've accomplished something very important.  Well...that is until you compile and reality sets in, but that's another story.

[patrickgeekhack]

Here are my thoughts. Keep in mind that I have not tried the Topre yet, so this is based on pre-Topre experience.

If I had to choose between the blue Cherries and the brown Cherries, I would pick the blue Cherries. They both have their own merits, but I like the auditive feedback and the more pronounce tactile feedback, although I would love to try a switch similar to the blue Cherries, but a tad lighter. The brown Cherries are nice too, they produce a quite soothing friction sound.

All in all, I would say that there's a big difference between the blue and the brown cherries. It's not like the brown is the blue minus the click. It much more than this. Which one you want to buy will depend if you like the click (some don't) and if you can use it in an environment which tolerates the click. While the click can be music to the ears of the typer, they can be cacophony to the ears of others close by.

That being said, if you got infected by the keyboard virus, you'll end up buying both and maybe the Topre as well like most of us just to try them all.   Why? Because, if you have never tried these switches before and don't know what they feel like, there will always be something in the back of your mind nagging you. You'll be asking yourself what it's like to try the other switch, and if you would have liked it better. Too many choices causes unhappiness instead of happiness (Barry Schwartz).

[ehird]

I'm a coder and own both a topre and blue cherry board.  They both have their advantages.  The topre feels much more down to business when I'm trying to get work done.  It's a comfortable soft feel.  The blue cherry board on the other hand is more of an "experience" and gives you an ego boost with each clicky stroke.  It's almost as if each click announces that you've accomplished something very important.  Well...that is until you compile and reality sets in, but that's another story.

Soft may be nice, but does it imply mushy?

The whole "clicky victory" thing is amusing but not desirable. I'd attribute the same thing to my initial "wow, this Model M is awesome!" feelilng.

All in all, I would say that there's a big difference between the blue and the brown cherries. It's not like the brown is the blue minus the click. It much more than this. Which one you want to buy will depend if you like the click (some don't) and if you can use it in an environment which tolerates the click. While the click can be music to the ears of the typer, they can be cacophony to the ears of others close by.

To be honest, I'm leaning closer to the Brown. I don't mind clicks, as long as they're nothing like the Model M in volume, but the Brown's "cluck" seems nicer than the Blue's "clack" (based on YouTube videos of them, never mind that I know they're inaccurate because videos of Model Ms never sound like mine do).

That being said, if you got infected by the keyboard virus, you'll end up buying both and maybe the Topre as well like most of us just to try them all.   Why? Because, if you have never tried these switches before and don't know what they feel like, there will always be something in the back of your mind nagging you. You'll be asking yourself what it's like to try the other switch, and if you would have liked it better.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm a goner. Who'd have thought that keyboards could be (a) a hobby and (b) an expensive hobby?

Too many choices causes unhappiness instead of happiness (Barry Schwartz).

So true. But I have to admit that researching every little item on the customisation form when ordering a computer is fun...

[ehird]

I'm a coder and own both a topre and blue cherry board.  They both have their advantages.  The topre feels much more down to business when I'm trying to get work done.  It's a comfortable soft feel.  The blue cherry board on the other hand is more of an "experience" and gives you an ego boost with each clicky stroke.  It's almost as if each click announces that you've accomplished something very important.  Well...that is until you compile and reality sets in, but that's another story.

Soft may be nice, but does it imply mushy?

The whole "clicky victory" thing is amusing but not desirable. I'd attribute the same thing to my initial "wow, this Model M is awesome!" feelilng.

All in all, I would say that there's a big difference between the blue and the brown cherries. It's not like the brown is the blue minus the click. It much more than this. Which one you want to buy will depend if you like the click (some don't) and if you can use it in an environment which tolerates the click. While the click can be music to the ears of the typer, they can be cacophony to the ears of others close by.

To be honest, I'm leaning closer to the Browns. I don't mind clicks, as long as they're nothing like the Model M in volume, but the Brown's "cluck" seems nicer than the Blue's "clack" (based on YouTube videos of them, never mind that I know they're inaccurate because videos of Model Ms never sound like mine does).

That being said, if you got infected by the keyboard virus, you'll end up buying both and maybe the Topre as well like most of us just to try them all.   Why? Because, if you have never tried these switches before and don't know what they feel like, there will always be something in the back of your mind nagging you. You'll be asking yourself what it's like to try the other switch, and if you would have liked it better.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm a goner. Who'd have thought that keyboards could be (a) a hobby and (b) an expensive hobby?

Too many choices causes unhappiness instead of happiness (Barry Schwartz).

So true. But I have to admit that researching every little item on the customisation form when ordering a computer is fun...

[xfocus]

I wouldn't say mushy.  It's not as crisp as a mechanical switch but it's definitely not like typing on a membrane board.  I'd say it has the feel of typing on wet clay tablets.  The stroke is linear all the way down and bottoms out with a soft velvet finish.  There's slight tactile feedback but it takes a while for your fingers to actually recognize it.  The more I type on mine the more I like it.  My initial impression was probably 7/10 but now I'd rate it closer to a 9/10.  I realized that I really liked it after I tried switching back to my blue cherry board and saw that I wasn't as efficient.

[ehird]

So, the feel something like a scissor-switch if you removed the bump?

[ehird]

So, the feel is something like a scissor-switch if you removed the bump and made it deeper?

[wellington1869]

if you're really interested in blues, browns, and topres, then believe me, its only a matter of time before you're a proud owner of each of them.    This site is like quicksand.

[xfocus]

So, the feel is something like a scissor-switch if you removed the bump and made it deeper?

All scissor switches I've ever used (mostly laptops) have a light plasticy feel to them.  The realforce has a heavier much more solid feel.  Also, the scissor switches don't have the soft landing to them (I'd say the scissors are bit squishier) and the topres have a more pronounced bounce/pushback to them after the key is fully pressed.

It's much harder to describe than a mechanical switch which isn't as subtle.

[wellington1869]

So, the feel is something like a scissor-switch if you removed the bump and made it deeper?

the topres? they're like a crisper microsoft keyboard. not a bad thing, just depends on what you want.

browns - very much like topres, a touch lighter.

blues - out of these three, the most mechanical, but compared to buckling springs, they wouldnt even register on the scale. Quite light and not even close in volume to buckling springs.

if you want a mechanical experience (without the key resistance or volume), blues is what you want.

If you dont care about the clicking that much, and want two of the lightest 'mechanical' keyboards sold today, then browns or topres will do. Topres have a softer landing than browns ("velvety" is the right word, I think), are smoother than browns, but also twice as expensive.

btw everyone's going to give you a different take on these things. Thats why ultimately you'll wind up owning all three and then make up your own mind  Not a bad thing really, you can always sell off the boards you dont want. Or just start a collection and stay for the long run

[o2dazone]

I wouldn't say mushy.  It's not as crisp as a mechanical switch but it's definitely not like typing on a membrane board.  I'd say it has the feel of typing on wet clay tablets.  The stroke is linear all the way down and bottoms out with a soft velvet finish.  There's slight tactile feedback but it takes a while for your fingers to actually recognize it.  The more I type on mine the more I like it.  My initial impression was probably 7/10 but now I'd rate it closer to a 9/10.  I realized that I really liked it after I tried switching back to my blue cherry board and saw that I wasn't as efficient.

Nice description, pretty much what I feel. It's not squishy at all. It travels like a Cherry switch (not quite as much), and then it collapses like a rubber dome. It's definitely different, and not quite as impressionable right away. Once you get your fingers on it, you start noticing differences between a typical rubber dome and a topre switch.

I'm very biased, and I have shallow switch experience, but +1 to topre switches for coding.

[roadblock2thesun]

browns - very much like topres, a touch lighter.

blues - out of these three, the most mechanical, but compared to buckling springs, they wouldnt even register on the scale. Quite light and not even close in volume to buckling springs.

I was under the impression that the blues were quite clicky... I've also hadn't heard the browns compared to topre before... thats good news for me

[ehird]

There seems to be no way to buy replacement keycaps for the Realforce 87U, which means I'd be stuck with the orbs on the Windows key (and also, you know, those pesky label things). Woe...

Does it only come with a red Esc key? The EliteKeyboard pictures include ones with non-coloured WASD keys, so I guess that's something you pop on yourself, but they all have the ugly red Esc key.

[xfocus]

There seems to be no way to buy replacement keycaps for the Realforce 87U, which means I'd be stuck with the orbs on the Windows key (and also, you know, those pesky label things). Woe...

Does it only come with a red Esc key? The EliteKeyboard pictures include ones with non-coloured WASD keys, so I guess that's something you pop on yourself, but they all have the ugly red Esc key.

The labeling isn't noticeable unless you get close to the board, the black on charcoal might as well be blank.

The red escape key is optional and it comes with a black one installed.

You can probably find replacement keys for the orbs but you might have to import them and it'll probably end up costing $20-40 just to get those two keys.

[wellington1869]

I was under the impression that the blues were quite clicky...

well there's clicky and then there's clicky...  I like the old school alps and bs, which are clicky xD

I've also hadn't heard the browns compared to topre before... thats good news for me

well, they're comparable in a broad way (both fairly light, fairly quiet, and if you get a good brown board, it can be pretty smooth too).  The toprists here will tell you i'm nuts of course. xD  Its true that topres are the smoothest switch you can buy, but look, in my case, I actually like some 'character' in my switches and found the topres so perfect as to be bland. So as with everything YMMV.

[ehird]

Huh, they are practically unlabelled. I didn't notice those minor labels, just forgot that detail of the pictures! I'm more worried about the labels due to their (admittedly, minor) impact on feel; although of course that tends to be more of a problem with cheaper boards.

Yay for the escape key, for the replacement keys. Oh well, this thing is expensive enough already; maybe if I need to replace a few more keys I could buy the Empire State Building instead.

[xfocus]

Huh, they are practically unlabelled. I didn't notice those minor labels, just forgot that detail of the pictures! I'm more worried about the labels due to their (admittedly, minor) impact on feel; although of course that tends to be more of a problem with cheaper boards.

Yay for the escape key, for the replacement keys. Oh well, this thing is expensive enough already; maybe if I need to replace a few more keys I could buy the Empire State Building instead.

You won't feel the key labels because the Realforce uses dye sublimation.  I can't feel it even if I'm looking for it.

[ehird]

They really went all-out on the quality front huh.

Just from pictures I've seen, the Realforce 87U seems to look a bit "dusty", so to speak; are the keys more matte/slightly lighter than the board?

[xfocus]

They really went all-out on the quality front huh.

Just from pictures I've seen, the Realforce 87U seems to look a bit "dusty", so to speak; are the keys more matte/slightly lighter than the board?

Yea :-(  In terms of build quality it's the ONLY thing I can knock the Realforce on.  I'd rather they made the keys the same color as the main board, but I'm sure they have a reason for doing it that way.  Other than the coloring though, it's the most solid board I've laid my hands on.

[ehird]

Haha, and I just found your review when you note that both the matte and lighter colour speculations are true. It just looks cheap to my eye.

Taking into account the cost, I think my best bet will be to get a Brown Filco and then, due to addiction — I mean, erm, if I find it inadequate in any way — look into the Realforce 87U.

[patrickgeekhack]

if you're really interested in blues, browns, and topres, then believe me, its only a matter of time before you're a proud owner of each of them.    This site is like quicksand.

Good description. Had I stop reading this forum after I got my review on the Customizer and got my Customizer, I would not own 7 keyboards today.

[msiegel]

Had I stop reading this forum after I got my review on the Customizer and got my Customizer, I would not own 7 keyboards today.

as if a warning is gonna do any good

[patrickgeekhack]

as if a warning is gonna do any good

You're right. A warning here seems to have the opposite desired effect. Usually, when someone is choosing between two products that do the same thing, I tell he or she to get the one his/her heart truly wants even if it means paying more. Otherwise, he/she will always wonder what the other one would have been like.

[timw4mail]

You're right. A warning here seems to have the opposite desired effect. Usually, when someone is choosing between two products that do the same thing, I tell he or she to get the one his/her heart truly wants even if it means paying more. Otherwise, he/she will always wonder what the other one would have been like.

And yet somehow, you and I have resisted getting Topre keyboards...

[timw4mail]

"DAMN, this is GOOOOOD food!".

This is a GOOOOOOD keyboard, this Model F.

[patrickgeekhack]

I have no problems resisting Model Fs and HHKB2s.  Ya gotta know what you like and dislike.  

Some people order food at a restaurant and always say, "I should have ordered what you got".  When they do I spend the whole meal saying, "DAMN, this is GOOOOOD food!".

If you did not do this, I would have asked "What did you do to Ripster?"

[patrickgeekhack]

And yet somehow, you and I have resisted getting Topre keyboards...

Do as I say not as I do :-) Seriously, my Topre is on its way. In my case (maybe in hindsight), the Topre was not what my heart truly desired. The example I gave applied more to my choice between a blue Cherry and a buckling spring keyboard. The price of the Das seemed too steep to me. But, at that time, I also thought that all mechanical keyboards were made equal. That is until I started reading more about keyboards here. After I got my Customizer, I still wanted a keyboards with blue Cherries. Eventually I got my G80-3000. In a way, I'm glad I waited for the G80-3000 was much cheapter to get than the Das III.

Again maybe in hindsight, but I think I would still want to get a brown Cherries even if I had bough the Topre first. This is because when I got to the point of deciding between a Topre or a Filco, it was a question of what to get first. I just knew it was not a matter of if, but of when I will be getting a Topre.

[wellington1869]

hey sometimes you have to sample the menu before you know what your favorites are.
Its like sushi. So far i've sampled various kinds and so far I know i like spicy tuna, salmon, avocado, and yellowtail. The rest not so much (so far), but i had to waste some money on trying them before I knew.

Its like the process of self-discovery that people sometimes mention, it applies to the keyboard-search too.

[msiegel]

hey wellington -- non-noob keyboard alert
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=124594#post124594

[ehird]

(apologies)