Author Topic: Cherry MX Linear (Black) switches (Read 18279 times)

d2v · « **on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 08:53:27 »

I have read quite a few reviews of keyboards with Cherry MX linear black switches. AFAIK, all of them suggest that these switches are not good for everyday typing, but are recommended for gaming. The sound clips and video reviews sound like switches are bottoming out every time.

Questions:
1. Can anyone comment on the experience of typing without bottoming out? I understand that the switch actuation is difficult to gauge, as there is no feedback at all. This probably lends to the habit of bottoming out to be sure about actuation.

2. The force diagram of linear cherry switch shows no hysteresis, which means the key will stick to the rising fingertip. I suppose this is good for quicker typing. (as claimed by BS users) What do you think ?

3. The Cherry G81-1800 keyboard (with linear switches) retails for about $58 (source: amazon website), while a filco tenkeyless linear is twice the price.
Does anyone here own the cherry board ? How is the typing experience ?
Is the filco board worth the extra dough ?

itlnstln · « **Reply #1 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 09:00:40 »

On a strictly Cherry vs. Filco standpoint, get the Cherry. The extra money, IMO, is not worth it unless you want the NKRO as the Cherry does not have it. I like my Cherry better than the Filco from a typing perspective (better feel and lower noise), and the keycaps are much better (read: durable) on the Cherry than the Filco. I can't speak to the switches, themselves, but as far as the 'boards go, the Cherry has my vote. The Filco is heavier and has a much smaller footprint. In the end, though, your money will be well spent either way you go.

timw4mail · « **Reply #2 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 09:05:16 »

Well, you have to be very perceptive to how much force, or how far you push down the key, if you don't want to bottom out. Otherwise, yes, its common to bottom out.

They do have hysteresis, its just a lot less pronounced than other Cherry keyboard switches.

Cherry keyboards are great, just don't be too surprised if it squeaks or creaks a little.

JBert · « **Reply #3 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 09:07:59 »

Quote from: d2v;124939

3. The Cherry G81-1800 keyboard (with linear switches) retails for about $58 (source: amazon website), while a filco tenkeyless linear is twice the price.
Does anyone here own the cherry board ? How is the typing experience ?
Is the filco board worth the extra dough ?

Hold that thought. I have a G81-3000 and I can tell you that they don't use Cherry MX switches but Cherry MY (also referred to as FTSC).
They are also linear, but they aren't so interesting to type on. They feel stiff, but I don't know if they are actually stiffer as the blacks.

erricrice · « **Reply #4 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 09:13:06 »

The cherry MY switches are also linear, but are very very heavy. They are mostly only used for POS 'boards for people who are just punching a single key at a time. Force diagram here. Black's actuate at 60g and stop at 80g. These things just keep on truckin.

If you want a cherry linear 'board, take a look here. I got one of these a few weeks ago and it was in great condition, and the 'board feels great. Price went up since I got mine, but it's still a great deal! I've also been told that this 'board feels better with the blacks than some of the other cherry 'boards do due to the construction.

d2v · « **Reply #5 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 09:26:47 »

Quote from: erricrice;124952

The cherry MY switches are also linear, but are very very heavy. They are mostly only used for POS 'boards for people who are just punching a single key at a time. Force diagram here. Black's actuate at 60g and stop at 80g. These things just keep on truckin.

If you want a cherry linear 'board, take a look here. I got one of these a few weeks ago and it was in great condition, and the 'board feels great. Price went up since I got mine, but it's still a great deal! I've also been told that this 'board feels better with the blacks than some of the other cherry 'boards do due to the construction.

Yes, the G80-11900 looks great. I was checking the G81-1800 because I don't want to pay extra for the trackpad which I won't use. This board (as sold new) retails for about $120, and is sold with black switches (don't know if other switches are available).

Which is the best/recommended keyboard for these switches ?
How is DSI SMK-88 ? I see that it comes in two versions - mac only and pc/mac. Any one have this particular board ?

d2v · « **Reply #6 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 09:31:08 »

Quote from: ripster;124956

Back to the OPs question.

I think the Cherry Blacks suck for everyday typing. The G81s are worse.

Heard that one before :smile: Care to elaborate ? :eyebrows:

itlnstln · « **Reply #7 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 09:37:54 »

Quote from: d2v;124960

Heard that one before :smile: Care to elaborate ? :eyebrows:

The G81s don't have MX blacks, they use MY switches. Here are some common Cherry product code prefixes:

G80 = MX switches
G81 = MY switches
G84 = ML switches

There are others, but these are the ones you find quite often around here.

timw4mail · « **Reply #8 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 09:40:29 »

G83 = rubber dome

texteur · « **Reply #9 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 10:07:45 »

I own a DSI Switch Mac Keyboard, which uses black Cherry switches. That's true: the keys stick to the rising fingertip and as there isn't a feedback, it lends to bottoming out.

To work all day on it is definitely not a good option. I hundred times prefer the brown switches of the Filco Majestouch Tactile Touch.

timw4mail · « **Reply #10 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 10:49:26 »

That is, if you want to open 104 switches, in order to have a linear keyboard.

sixty · « **Reply #11 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 11:05:16 »

I actually ended up loving Cherry blacks for occasional typing. I don't think I bottom out a lot. The resistance is so high that I end up naturally not bottoming out much. I also share huha's experience and prefer the blacks on the g80-1800 much more than on the g80-3000. It seems the case design has a lot to do with the overall switch feel.

itlnstln · « **Reply #12 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 11:10:43 »

Since the 1800 is a smaller 'board, it might flex a little less than the 3000 (although I never experienced flexing in my 3000)

I want an 1800 with browns. Bad.

lowpoly · « **Reply #13 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 11:25:18 »

Just converted my Mini to Cherry Blacks and enjoy it so far.

lowpoly · « **Reply #14 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 11:47:47 »

No, the Mini in my avatar.

I don't have a 'board with Cherry Clears.

d2v · « **Reply #15 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 12:06:59 »

Quote from: sixty;124986

I actually ended up loving Cherry blacks for occasional typing. I don't think I bottom out a lot. The resistance is so high that I end up naturally not bottoming out much. I also share huha's experience and prefer the blacks on the g80-1800 much more than on the g80-3000. It seems the case design has a lot to do with the overall switch feel.

My thoughts exactly. The reason I am looking at cherry blacks is because they have higher activation force and quick return. In theory, once you train your finger muscles to type without bottoming out on them, these should be as enjoyable as BS boards, sans the machine gun rattle.

Rajagra · « **Reply #16 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 12:14:17 »

Quote from: d2v;124959

Which is the best/recommended keyboard for these switches ?

To try them out watch eBay for Cherry MX11900 or Compaq MX11800 boards, they are often very cheap.

sixty · « **Reply #17 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 14:30:29 »

Quote from: ripster;124990

60 - like your new avatar!

Haha, yeah I found it quite cute. It is actually part of a wallpaper:

ds26gte · « **Reply #18 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 15:33:05 »

Quote from: d2v;124959

Yes, the G80-11900 looks great. I was checking the G81-1800 because I don't want to pay extra for the trackpad which I won't use. This board (as sold new) retails for about $120, and is sold with black switches (don't know if other switches are available).

Which is the best/recommended keyboard for these switches ?
How is DSI SMK-88 ? I see that it comes in two versions - mac only and pc/mac. Any one have this particular board ?

Can't answer your question re Cherry blacks in an SMK-88, but I do have this board. I bought it some years ago (from DSI) because I wanted a compact yet reasonable-quality "Mac" keyboard for my first Mac, a Mac mini (when Macs were still PPC). And this was the most prominent non-Apple keyboard to hit my eye that explicitly targeted the nascent Mac mini, if you can believe it!

I never really tested it much because I was using the mini mostly to store photos. I had no idea about the different types of Cherry switches until I came across geekhack, where I learned about force/travel diagrams and why the Cherry blacks were no joy for typing, and that the SMK-88 was mostly likely using blacks. I suffered a bit thinking I may have spent some good cash on the one mechanical keyboard that was not for me! I then pried loose a keycap to see what was underneath... and hallelujah it was blue! I have been typing on it rather more nowadays to see what the fuss is all about. Not bad at all, though I should probably try the quieter Cherry browns...

Unlike some here, I don't mind the layout on the SMK-88. I use Colemak on it, but with Control rather than Backspace on the CapsLock. Although it makes a nod to the Mac with an unsightly vertical strip of volume-control keys, it has an almost Happy Hacking look to it, but with explicit arrow keys that are not much smaller than the regular keys. It is not a heavy keyboard, but it stays put. It is easy to carry around, to work, say -- but I have avoided doing so because it is such a lively noisemaker.

erricrice · « **Reply #19 on:** Tue, 13 October 2009, 21:03:37 »

Quote from: sixty;125046

Haha, yeah I found it quite cute. It is actually part of a wallpaper:

Show Image

That's awesome! Do you have it in higher res? Or do you have the source link?

And I really like the feel of Blacks, but they seem to make me type slowly, even if I use them for a long time. I'm trying it out again, because occasionally I'll really get rolling on it and I think I might just need some more time to get used to not having a tactile point.

MY 'board coming soon because I absolutely must try it out. A whole $20 for it too! lol

keyb_gr · « **Reply #20 on:** Wed, 14 October 2009, 07:12:59 »

Quote from: ripster;125001

And is it you or Keyb_gr that has a Cherry Clear keyboard. I'm curious about those now.

I have two actually. The older one with two-shot keycap goodness is my work board (yep, the one with the switch cleaning fun), the newer one is used on a secondary machine.

Unfortunately I don't have any board with browns, nor have I ever typed on one. They're pretty much the hardest to come by here.

ds26gte · « **Reply #21 on:** Wed, 14 October 2009, 10:58:40 »

Quote from: ripster;125178

Ooooo - SMK88 with Cherry Blues. Sell me yours and try those wonderful quiet Cherry Browns.

I will try the Browns eventually (peer pressure here seems guaranteed to make me buckle), but I can't imagine parting with this small blue keyboard, sorry! (You do want me to have a decent excuse to vote for the blues in any and all polls, don't you? As I have been doing -- you're welcome!)

I don't mind the sound, but people around me might. It recalls the chirping of multitudes of smallish peace-loving button-faced forest creatures in some Miyazake anime film (Mononoke?). Impossible to ignore, but cute rather than creepy. It's sad that this keyboard is not being made any more -- the Modular one that's replacing it has too much framing space (perhaps inevitable in a modular design), and I don't like the way its surface pulls in suddenly under the Plimsoll line. Looks like four axes for the keyboard to rock on...

Rajagra · « **Reply #22 on:** Wed, 14 October 2009, 12:29:46 »

Quote from: sixty;125046

Haha, yeah I found it quite cute. It is actually part of a wallpaper

Can anyone join in?

d2v · « **Reply #23 on:** Wed, 14 October 2009, 22:50:31 »

Whats next, the king board beating up inferior challengers ? :ballchain:

d2v · « **Reply #24 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 11:21:17 »

Quote from: itlnstln;124961

The G81s don't have MX blacks, they use MY switches. Here are some common Cherry product code prefixes:

G80 = MX switches
G81 = MY switches
G84 = ML switches

There are others, but these are the ones you find quite often around here.

Does anyone know which switches are used in the G86 series ? I was eyeing the Cherry SPOS rows and columns keyboard, which is not too far from the price of a G80-11900. This board has fully programmable and relegendable keys, which should make a great toy! One can implement the humble hacker keyboard with it, I think.

timw4mail · « **Reply #25 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 11:32:24 »

Quote from: d2v;125654

Does anyone know which switches are used in the G86 series ? I was eyeing the Cherry SPOS rows and columns keyboard, which is not too far from the price of a G80-11900. This board has fully programmable and relegendable keys, which should make a great toy! One can implement the humble hacker keyboard with it, I think.

I know G83 = rubber dome

I don't know of any other keyboard switches that Cherry makes, besides those four categories, so I haven't a clue what those have in them.

d2v · « **Reply #26 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 11:48:59 »

Quote from: ripster;125662

Rubber Dome. Chloe is always right.

Sounds like we talked you out of Cherry Blacks.

I didn't commit to the blacks ! No sir, not at all :smile:

On a side note, I was looking at this website, which talks about low force microswitches for keyboards. The author says that lower activation force is better, among other things. What do you guys think ?

CX23882 · « **Reply #27 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 11:49:21 »

G85 = Scissor switch.
G86 = Rubber dome, but feels different to regular Logitech rubber domes. These are used in "Cymotion" boards

itlnstln · « **Reply #28 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 11:56:08 »

Quote from: d2v;125666

The author says that lower activation force is better, among other things. What do you guys think ?

I would agree to an extent. There comes a point, though, where the switch would be so light that you would constantly press keys on accident. IMO, that's the point where it's probably just as uncomfortable to hold your hands over the keys as it is to type on a stiffer switch. For me, Cherry browns are light enough that I don't tire during long sessions, but they have enough resistance where I can rest my fingers on the keys without accidently pressing one.

timw4mail · « **Reply #29 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 12:02:10 »

Let me get this straight:

G80 = MX
G81 = MY
G82 = ??
G83 = rubber dome
G84 = ML
G85 = scissor switch
G86 = better rubber dome

d2v · « **Reply #30 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 12:25:36 »

Quote from: ripster;125684

I like Tim Tyler. His goal is admirable and I like the wacky lab aspect of it all.

He's the guy in front.
Show Image

You need to find some lego spectacles for the bearded guy in the front now.

Does anyone have any experience with cherry programmable boards ?

d2v · « **Reply #31 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 12:29:19 »

The cherry website says that the programmable G86 series keyboard has keyswitch life of 25 million actuations ? Can a rubber dome last that long ? I thought it was about a million on average.

timw4mail · « **Reply #32 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 12:42:25 »

Quote from: d2v;125689

The cherry website says that the programmable G86 series keyboard has keyswitch life of 25 million actuations ? Can a rubber dome last that long ? I thought it was about a million on average.

It might be more of a hammer-over-membrane sort of rubber dome, which tends to last longer.

JBert · « **Reply #33 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 13:39:44 »

I have a G86 Cymotion at work, but I obviously can't open it without upsetting the IT infrastructure guys.
It is a decent rubber-dome though.

In Cherry's descriptions, the G86 is referred to as ATK technology whereas the G83 is NTK. Don't know what it stands for...

timw4mail · « **Reply #34 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 21:36:51 »

I added some information I gleaned from a Cherry employee about their model number scheme to the wiki.

d2v · « **Reply #35 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 21:52:46 »

Quote from: ripster;125703

D2V - boy you're bouncing from one keyswitch to another. What's your goal?

And BTW I betcha the new Das Silent will be a Cherry Black. They are trying to stomp on the gaming boards.

The goal is to find a silent (relatively) keyboard, preferably a compact one, for office use. I first considered Cherry Browns, then the sound clips show that they are not silent enough, and are very light. Thus I started looking for Cherry Blacks.

I got distracted by possibility of a programmable board with cherry blacks (appears to be a dead end). Now I am contemplating the choice between SMK-88, Filco tenkeyless linear and Cherry G80-11900.

Reading about low force microswitches makes me rethink the idea of Cherry Blacks. I have had mild RSI trouble in the past, which went away after reducing the amount of typing. Maybe Cherry Browns are not so bad after all, as one can make them linear with a little surgery. Correct me if I am wrong here.

Bouncing between choices is great fun !

d2v · « **Reply #36 on:** Fri, 16 October 2009, 06:57:54 »

Has anyone tried making the brown switches linear ? I recall reading about this somewhere on GH.

JBert · « **Reply #37 on:** Fri, 16 October 2009, 07:09:38 »

Well, Tim Tyler once did some Keyboard surgery to have a lighter keyboard. I think it is possible to do something similar to get a linear keyboard.

lowpoly · « **Reply #38 on:** Fri, 16 October 2009, 07:27:54 »

The standard mod to get lighter linear switches would be to take black stems and the springs from blues or browns.

Here is how the stems look like:

http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm

itlnstln · « **Reply #39 on:** Fri, 16 October 2009, 08:24:57 »

This makes me wish we had Cherry reds here. It would be nice if we had a source for Cherry-made keyboards.

timw4mail · « **Reply #40 on:** Fri, 16 October 2009, 08:41:17 »

Quote from: itlnstln;125952

This makes me wish we had Cherry reds here. It would be nice if we had a source for Cherry-made keyboards.

Hmm...maybe I can ask them.

itlnstln · « **Reply #41 on:** Fri, 16 October 2009, 09:18:28 »

I think lowpoly said they aren't producing many of the red switches right now. I think they are only available in Cherry-made 'boards in Asia. 3rd parties can't get reds yet, and I don't think Cherry is exporting them outside of Asia. That was awhile ago, though, so I hope this is changing.

lowpoly · « **Reply #42 on:** Fri, 16 October 2009, 11:44:48 »

I ordered some reds but my order bounced because the distributor couldn't find the model number.

Have to order again.

itlnstln · « **Reply #43 on:** Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:03:27 »

Quote from: ripster;126030

Just think if we could find a source of crystal clear keys to go with them.

We'd be back in the 80's. Everything seemed to have a clear case back then. Phones, remotes, you name it.

timw4mail · « **Reply #44 on:** Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:07:44 »

Quote from: itlnstln;126040

We'd be back in the 80's. Everything seemed to have a clear case back then. Phones, remotes, you name it.

Right around 1998 or so, there seemed to be a small re-emergence of see-through electronic devices. I've got a transparent Gameboy Pocket from around then.

d2v · « **Reply #45 on:** Sat, 17 October 2009, 00:10:50 »

Ordered a SMK-88 today.. need dem black cherries.

jkkhop · « **Reply #46 on:** Sat, 17 October 2009, 11:02:40 »

Loving my Black Cherry, 87-key Filco. Though, I have it mainly for gaming, I think it's nicer for typing than the Cherry Browns I had before. The higher actuation force makes me do less mistakes and not bottom out that much AND it is quieter.

d2v · « **Reply #47 on:** Sat, 17 October 2009, 11:40:40 »

Quote from: jkkhop;126352

Loving my Black Cherry, 87-key Filco. Though, I have it mainly for gaming, I think it's nicer for typing than the Cherry Browns I had before. The higher actuation force makes me do less mistakes and not bottom out that much AND it is quieter.

Good to know you like it. I haven't used black cherries before, but I started looking at them for the same reasons you mentioned. There is a long waiting period for me till the SMK-88 lands here.
Did you every measure your typing speed (WPM) on the Filco and other boards ? How does it compare ?

shortround · « **Reply #48 on:** Sun, 18 October 2009, 00:32:21 »

I never liked the rebound feel (or lack of it) with cherry blacks. It always felt like the keys were going to come back up too slowly. I think that was more feel than fact on my part, but I like to feel the key wanting to come back up quickly.

d2v · « **Reply #49 on:** Sun, 18 October 2009, 01:32:48 »

I suppose its a matter of perspective. Some people find the black cherry switch to rebound quickly, almost pushing the rising finger, while some find it too slow to retrieve. Can we actually measure this in different switches ?

There are two separate aspects to this, IMO
1. Starting from the bottomed out position, how long does it take for the bare switch stem to rise to the top dead position ? (Different keycaps have different weights, thus changing inertia of the moving assembly)

2. We compress the switch to the point of actuation, starting from top dead position, and then suddenly release it. How long will it take to reach resting position from there ?

Anyone volunteering to measure this ?

News:

Author Topic: Cherry MX Linear (Black) switches (Read 18279 times)