Spit Aces: the solution to modifiers?

[VVhitel2abbit]

I have been working on a design for a split keyboard similar to the ergo dox. The modifier keys have always been a problem, I think. They need to be easy to combine together. They need to be accessible.
I was playing video games the other day and realized that the A, B, X, and Y keys of an Xbox controller are pretty easy to combine. What if I used those for the modifiers?



Below is an example of what it could look like. The keybard maker doesn't have round keys, so you will just have to imagine round keys :


I would put them at a bit of an incline, so the pad of the thumb could be flat against them.

Anyway, your feedback would be appreciated. The rest of the layout is still in the early stages, but feel free to comment on it too if you would like.

[suicidal_orange]

If those are to scale what are you planning to use for the switches and caps?  And what does the ^^ one do?  I was thinking shift until I saw the big one right next door )

[VVhitel2abbit]

If those are to scale what are you planning to use for the switches and caps? ...

 My plan is to buy an xbox controller, (a cheap one) and harvest the buttons and part of the pcb, then just wire those into the teensy like regular buttons.

... And what does the ^^ one do?  I was thinking shift until I saw the big one right next door )

It is shift. I figure it may be nice to have a big one for typing more comfy and the small just for key combos (like Ctrl-Shift-Esc) That is a lot of shift buttons, huh? I am just unsure if using the xbox buttons would get irritating and tiresome if they had to be used too frequently.

[neverused]

I like the idea, it's different. Xbox controller pads have discreet buttons, would you wire each to a separate pin on the teensy or add in diodes to extend them into the existing matrix?

[VVhitel2abbit]

I like the idea, it's different. Xbox controller pads have discreet buttons, would you wire each to a separate pin on the teensy or add in diodes to extend them into the existing matrix?

I would like to add them to the existing matrix, but I haven't really looked into it much. The idea is still pretty new. I am waiting to see if time will degrade this to novelty or if it will stand as a good solution. If it still seems good in a week or so, I will start pulling stuff apart for a cardboard prototype.

[vvp]

Oobly's thumb cluster is optimized for pressing two keys at once:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49721

[jeffgran]

I think that's a great idea. In my opinion no one has quite figured out the best way to make use of your thumbs.  A whole lot of people seem to be interested in the idea, and things like the Ergodox and Kinesis Advantage and a slew of customs here have been circling around a solution. I think you're smart to think of console controllers... even as far back as the original nintendo I was holding down and tapping multiple buttons with my thumbs... console makers have obviously spent years working on the design of thumb buttons that can be both held and tapped, like we need. I'm almost ashamed I didn't think of this before. Seems like the biggest challenge with this will be aligning the angle of the plane where the buttons sit so that it feels natural to hit them. A big part of why the dual-shock or the xbox controller feel nice is the overall shape of the controller, not just the buttons themselves. Interested to hear your impressions if you make some cardboard mockups and test it out.

[jacobolus]

Some thoughts about game console controllers:

(1) They are designed to be as cheap as possible to mass produce, much like the keyboards that come with $400 desktop PCs. As a result, any feature which doesn’t have obvious marketing value is going to be cut. Most relevant here, the buttons on game controllers are really crappy little rubber domes which are in general pretty unpleasant, too stiff with poor feedback, easy to wear down / break, and usually requiring a pretty good mash to consistently actuate. However, you could definitely use better buttons for this kind of project, whether keyboard switches or some kind of tactile switches or other micro switches. There’s a whole world out there of nice switches of various types to explore.

(2) They are designed to be pressed with the hands and arms in a very specific orientation. If you having your hands in a typing position, I think you’ll find it somewhat tough to find a good position and orientation for a standard game controller button pad to be comfortable to press all day long, especially if you want to use it as a modifier for finger keys.

Still though, having several smaller thumb buttons oriented out of the plane of the rest of the keyboard is a reasonable idea.

Definitely try to build a prototype and let us know how it goes!

[Melvang]

I like the idea, it's different. Xbox controller pads have discreet buttons, would you wire each to a separate pin on the teensy or add in diodes to extend them into the existing matrix?

I would like to add them to the existing matrix, but I haven't really looked into it much. The idea is still pretty new. I am waiting to see if time will degrade this to novelty or if it will stand as a good solution. If it still seems good in a week or so, I will start pulling stuff apart for a cardboard prototype.

Harvesting switches from an actual xbox controller is going to be difficult at best to add to an existing matrix, they are rubber domes, similar to every other console controller.

Oobly's thumb cluster is optimized for pressing two keys at once:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49721

I was thinking this as I was reading through the thread.

[neverused]

I like the idea, it's different. Xbox controller pads have discreet buttons, would you wire each to a separate pin on the teensy or add in diodes to extend them into the existing matrix?

I would like to add them to the existing matrix, but I haven't really looked into it much. The idea is still pretty new. I am waiting to see if time will degrade this to novelty or if it will stand as a good solution. If it still seems good in a week or so, I will start pulling stuff apart for a cardboard prototype.

Harvesting switches from an actual xbox controller is going to be difficult at best to add to an existing matrix, they are rubber domes, similar to every other console controller.

Oobly's thumb cluster is optimized for pressing two keys at once:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49721

I was thinking this as I was reading through the thread.

Well the pcb could be harvested and the pin holes for the rubber dome under the x, y, a, and b could be retained. Many controllers have points on the pcb that allow the rubber dome to be poked through to keep it in place, then it would be a simple matter of adding diodes in line with each trace.

[Oobly]

Oobly's thumb cluster is optimized for pressing two keys at once:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49721

Thanks for the shout out!

Some thoughts about game console controllers:

(1) They are designed to be as cheap as possible to mass produce, much like the keyboards that come with $400 desktop PCs. As a result, any feature which doesn’t have obvious marketing value is going to be cut. Most relevant here, the buttons on game controllers are really crappy little rubber domes which are in general pretty unpleasant, too stiff with poor feedback, easy to wear down / break, and usually requiring a pretty good mash to consistently actuate. However, you could definitely use better buttons for this kind of project, whether keyboard switches or some kind of tactile switches or other micro switches. There’s a whole world out there of nice switches of various types to explore.

(2) They are designed to be pressed with the hands and arms in a very specific orientation. If you having your hands in a typing position, I think you’ll find it somewhat tough to find a good position and orientation for a standard game controller button pad to be comfortable to press all day long, especially if you want to use it as a modifier for finger keys.

Still though, having several smaller thumb buttons oriented out of the plane of the rest of the keyboard is a reasonable idea.

Definitely try to build a prototype and let us know how it goes!

Definitely agree, especially the highlighted portion. My second prototype will be using 0.8x size Cherry ML switches for the thumb keys, same layout as V1, though. V1 has been well used and works nicely, the keys are in good positions, easy to press singly or in combination and the angles are comfortable. I'd like to bring them in just a touch closer to the other switches, though, and that's a prime motivation for using the thinner profile ML switches.

I use the upper keys for "press" actions, like Shift, Fn, Ctrl and Alt and the lower buttons for "strike" actions like Space, Backspace, Tab and Enter. They suit the hand joint / tendon / muscle design.