Author Topic: Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?  (Read 54945 times)

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Offline Special K

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I did a search and found a few isolated posts commenting on this issue, but I figured I'd try to gather a number of responses into a single thread.  Is it normal for the matte texture coating/finish on Filco keyboards' keys to start wearing off after a month of typical use?  I was quite disappointed to find yesterday morning that the S key on my 1-month old FKBN104MC/EB already has a little spot in the center of it where the special coating seems to have worn off.  I'm an FPS gamer and use WASD extensively so I'm not surprised the S key went first, but I just figured it wouldn't happen so soon.  The fact that it is only occurring on the S key right now and not WAD or any other home row keys makes me wonder if there was something on the tip of my left ring finger that might have accelerated the process?

Now that I take a closer look, I'm starting to notice a similar spot on the right side of the spacebar.

In every other respect I have to say it's an excellent keyboard, however.
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 October 2009, 15:46:14 by Special K »
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline AndrewZorn

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 15:46:33 »

Offline wellington1869

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 15:55:27 »
Quote from: Special K;125765
Is it normal for the matte texture coating/finish on Filco keyboards' keys to start wearing off after a month of typical use?  I was quite disappointed to find yesterday morning that the S key on my 1-month old FKBN104MC/EB already has a little spot in the center of it where the special coating seems to have worn off.  

...

Now that I take a closer look, I'm starting to notice a similar spot on the right side of the spacebar.


dont worry, the cavalry (ripster + itlnstln?) will arrive in a moment. All concerns will be soothed away with cooing noises. If that doesnt work we can expect bigger guns to arrive.

This is the topic-that-must-not-be-mentioned, apparently. Yikes, what have you unleashed? xD

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline itlnstln

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 15:57:49 »
Yes.  Filco keys get shiny quite quickly; for me, I start seeing signs of wear in about 2-3 weeks.  It seems to be a combination of softer ABS plastic and the already smooth surface.  That said, the lettering will not wear off in the process.  The printing method used on the lettering is uber-strong.


Offline Special K

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 15:59:41 »
Quote from: itlnstln;125774
Yes.  Filco keys get shiny quite quickly; for me, I start seeing signs of wear in about 2-3 weeks.  It seems to be a combination of softer ABS plastic and the already smooth surface.  That said, the lettering will not wear off in the process.  The printing method used on the lettering is uber-strong.


Yeah, the lettering still looks fine, it's just the finish that seems to be wearing off.

On a related note, is it OK if I clean the keys by misting a microfiber cloth with some distilled water (same as I use for my LCDs)?  Will the water cause the letters to fade faster?
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline ironcoder

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:06:59 »
I will be pretty unhappy if this happens on mine, I agree it looks bad.

I think some people have more acid in their sweat than others and this can affect it. I think they should use a plastic that's resistant to that, it's not an excuse but maybe an explanation.

I wash my hands before working on the keyboard and I try to keep them clean throughout the day. There are alot of variables, do you smoke while you type, do you eat, drink, etc.  Just some things to think about. Also do you clean the keys? I used to use Windex on everything, IBM keyboards always stood up to it but my POS brand-X keyboards sometimes didn't look so great. I always prefer white but even those can be affected, although it looks worse on black for some reason.

Edit: you're already ahead of me, microfiber and water sounds about as gentle as you can get. I can't imagine that causing a problem. Sounds like you take good care of your equipment.
In the office: Filco 87 Cherry Browns x 2 (one with coffee damage, recovered) ● Lexmark IBM Model M 52G9658 1993 & 1996

Offline majestouch

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:07:08 »
Yea, this is a downside of coatings. I posted pics of my 4 year old Majestouch earlier this year that shows wearing on many keys (one of the photos is in the key wiki here). The speed at which it wears seems to vary quite a bit. I've seen boards that are a year old with little or no wear, and I've seen boards after a month with the wear you describe. There are many variables contributing to it, oils on your fingers, the pH of your perspiration, your fingernails, your skin, and anything you might have on your fingers as well.

I've talked to Diatec about options available, but we haven't come to a solution yet. Non-coated keys are an option that I'm working on, but I don't know if it will be standard or an accessory like the blank keycaps we already carry. The Zero boards have non-coated keys, it'd be interesting to compare wear to a Majestouch after the same amount of usage by the same person.
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:09:12 by majestouch »

Offline ironcoder

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:10:16 »
Quote from: majestouch;125781
The Zero boards have non-coated keys, it'd be interesting to compare wear to a Majestouch after the same amount of usage by the same person.


I'm sure numerous forum members will be happy to do the testing for you on some new keyboards :lol:
In the office: Filco 87 Cherry Browns x 2 (one with coffee damage, recovered) ● Lexmark IBM Model M 52G9658 1993 & 1996

Offline AndrewZorn

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:10:51 »
yeah, i wish they just left the coating off completely... looks/feels good for a month?

i will either get the blank keycap set (expensive to me) or take each key off and buff the finish away (if that is practical)

so to clarify, does it leave a 'hole' in the 'film' that you can distinctly see, or is it just more shiny at the spot?  some shininess i can live with, but if it looks like a badly waxed apple, that would be bad.

Offline itlnstln

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:18:13 »
Quote from: majestouch;125781
Yea, this is a downside of coatings. I posted pics of my 4 year old Majestouch earlier this year that shows wearing on many keys (one of the photos is in the key wiki here). The speed at which it wears seems to vary quite a bit. I've seen boards that are a year old with little or no wear, and I've seen boards after a month with the wear you describe. There are many variables contributing to it, oils on your fingers, the pH of your perspiration, your fingernails, your skin, and anything you might have on your fingers as well.
 
I've talked to Diatec about options available, but we haven't come to a solution yet. Non-coated keys are an option that I'm working on, but I don't know if it will be standard or an accessory like the blank keycaps we already carry. The Zero boards have non-coated keys, it'd be interesting to compare wear to a Majestouch after the same amount of usage by the same person.

It's the plastic that goes shiny.  I have the uncoated blank caps, and they are already getting pretty shiny.  Costar would need to switch plastics (like POM, for example) if they want to improve the caps.
 
Special K, I clean mine with Lysol wipes, so a microfiber cloth and distilled water should be OK
 
Ironcoder, prepare to be unhappy.


Offline Special K

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:18:47 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;125783
yeah, i wish they just left the coating off completely... looks/feels good for a month?

i will either get the blank keycap set (expensive to me) or take each key off and buff the finish away (if that is practical)

so to clarify, does it leave a 'hole' in the 'film' that you can distinctly see, or is it just more shiny at the spot?  some shininess i can live with, but if it looks like a badly waxed apple, that would be bad.


Here are some pics:





As you can see, the S key has a faded spot in the middle, while the A key does not.  Obviously the lighting will affect how pronounced the spot looks, so I tried to take a picture in which light from the sun was not reflecting off of the worn spot.

Also, is this coating unique to Filco keyboards?  When people talk about a keyboard's keys becoming shiny, is this what they are talking about?  I bought a black used AT101W and the spacebar has a large shiny spot on it, but I didn't know if AT101W keys had that special matte finish on them to begin with.  Some people are talking about the blank keys going shiny, but I thought the blank keys didn't have the matte finish on them to begin with.  Does "going shiny" = matte finish wearing off, or am I referring to two separate things?
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:24:28 by Special K »
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline AndrewZorn

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:27:35 »
well see, that's what i feared it would look like.  if the key just got shiny fast from friction making the surface smoother, then fine.  cheap, but still fine.  this makes me want to research some chemical bath to dunk all the keys in to just remove ALL the finish all at once.

this looks like someone spayed clear coat spraypaint on the keys or something.

Offline itlnstln

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:40:25 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;125788
well see, that's what i feared it would look like. if the key just got shiny fast from friction making the surface smoother, then fine. cheap, but still fine. this makes me want to research some chemical bath to dunk all the keys in to just remove ALL the finish all at once.
 
this looks like someone spayed clear coat spraypaint on the keys or something.

 
See my post above.  It's not only the coating that rubs off, the plastic goes smooth as well.


Offline Special K

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:42:18 »
Quote from: itlnstln;125797
See my post above.  It's not only the coating that rubs off, the plastic goes smooth as well.


So from looking at my photos, is it only my coating that wore off, or did my plastic go smooth as well?  I guess your post answers my question about what it means for a key to become shiny.
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline AndrewZorn

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:42:38 »
Quote from: itlnstln;125797
See my post above.  It's not only the coating that rubs off, the plastic goes smooth as well.
right, i understand
Quote
if the key just got shiny fast from friction

i could deal with "cheap keycaps, looks like an old keyboard faster" deal.  but "coating on keycaps, makes it look like a spraypainted keyboard" is pretty disappointing.

Offline itlnstln

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 16:44:38 »
The coating comes off pretty quick, though, I never had a "spraypainted" look on mine.  They went shiny evenly.


Offline CX23882

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 17:21:42 »
I know I'm being picky, but I dislike shiny keys. I was going to order a Filco with Cherry browns, but now I'm no so sure. My current G80-3000 is over a year old and still holding up well with no perceivable key wear. The Logitech at work became shiny after a couple of weeks!

Offline AndrewZorn

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 18:46:34 »
it just seems like it's going to be gone quickly anyway, so why bother?

those shiny keys, are they from the g81-1800?

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 19:19:35 »
Quote from: wellington1869;125771
dont worry, the cavalry (ripster + itlnstln?) will arrive in a moment. All concerns will be soothed away with cooing noises. If that doesnt work we can expect bigger guns to arrive.

This is the topic-that-must-not-be-mentioned, apparently. Yikes, what have you unleashed? xD


That was a very good comment Welly :-)
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline AndrewZorn

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 19:23:03 »
Quote from: ripster;125838
The shiny ESC key came from here.

I think Filco probably needs to do it for competitive pressures too. I think Logitech, Microsoft and others go the "Secret Sauce" route.

The final factor is just the design decision they made to go with a Matte finish vs Sandpaper (IBM) or Velvet (Topre) or Grainy (Unicomp and CherryCorp).  The simple fact is plastic wears down and the less texture the quicker it'll get shiny.

i meant the coating.  the coating just seems like its only purpose is to look good in internet pictures, and feel good throughout the "return period".  they make the blank key set on elite sound inferior for no coating, but it sounds like the way it should have been all along.

Offline ch_123

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 19:31:01 »
Is it just me, or have the quality "issues" of the Filco been blown out of all proportion as of late?

Offline AndrewZorn

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 19:36:49 »
probably, watch, the problem may never even happen to me...

but it doesnt change the fact that over at diatec they are giving keys... the part that your fingers touch all the time... a 'paint job' that is almost guaranteed to wear off quickly.  it makes no sense.
"matte finish" plastic as a preference is fine, the side effect being that it wears, fine... but at least it has a reason and an upside.

its like paying a shaman to grant powers to keyboards before they leave the door.  just seems like a waste of everyone's time.

talking about 'cutting costs', for the consumer OR manufacturer, why not cut THIS?  or do different caps entirely.  or something.

EDIT why is the world so against shiny-to-start-with keys?  does it look THAT bad to some people?  is there only a LOSS in tactility/feel?  come on...
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 October 2009, 19:52:33 by AndrewZorn »

Offline maxlugar

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 20:07:18 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;125841
i meant the coating.  the coating just seems like its only purpose is to look good in internet pictures, and feel good throughout the "return period".  they make the blank key set on elite sound inferior for no coating, but it sounds like the way it should have been all along.


I disagree. I rather like the matte texture on the Filcos.  It distinguishes the Filcos from other keyboards.   I've only had my Filcos for several weeks so I haven't notice any key cap wear yet.  I also make sure I wash my greasy hands before I type on my Filcos.

The texture molded in to the HHKB Pro2 and Realforce 87U key caps 12 are superior to the Filco coating becasue it will never wear off.

I was "gifted" with NIB TVS Gold keyboard from one our Indian contractors today.  Overall, I was pleasantly surprised because it uses Blue Cherry MX key switches and the assembly qualilty & key cap fit are MUCH better than the previous TVS keyboard I used.  However, I still prefer my Blue Cherry Filcos for a variety of reasons, one of those being the coated key caps.
Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

Offline AndrewZorn

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 20:14:24 »
having a matte texture is one thing.  but even the elitekeyboards rep admits that the COATING wears off quickly.  no matter how much you wash your hands.  so it is a short-term effect.

the topre cap texture will not ever wear 'off', because it IS the cap, but it will WEAR, and be shiny someday... but at least they use materials to avoid this.

Offline AndrewZorn

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 20:30:57 »
what i was getting at is their effort is to reduce wear, not add to the number of things that WILL wear, so at least it is money well spent

Offline maxlugar

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 22:48:49 »
Quote from: ripster;125855
Topre costs a bit more.  Like double.


Yeah, and the Topre switches don't even click!
Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 22:55:17 »
Quote from: ripster;125861
That was a snarky comment Patrick :-(


That was not my intention. I just found his prediction to be good. There are some people who are very active on this forum, and this is what give it a nice feeling. I've been on many forums and have never met a sense of friendship as high as here. I just sensed that sooner or later, I will see your comment on this thread.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline maxlugar

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 22:56:57 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;125853
having a matte texture is one thing.  but even the elitekeyboards rep admits that the COATING wears off quickly.  no matter how much you wash your hands.  so it is a short-term effect.


I could be wrong but I don't ever recall seeing a post by majestouch acknowledging the quick wear of the matte finish coating.

In fact, I remember seeing a post from majestouch that stated just the opposite...something like there was no noticeable key wear after a couple years of use.  I'll see if I can find that post...
Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

Offline msiegel

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 23:25:44 »
pluth ith you lick thehw youw touge can geth thtuck!

on a related note, my left alt key is already starting to get shiny -- this is on a filco zero. i think there's extra wear because, due to the key layout, when i press command (alt) z,x,c,v, i have to rotate my thumb... so the thumbnail ends up in contact with the keycap.

Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
Model F Mod Log * Open Source Generic keyboard controller

Offline maxlugar

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 15 October 2009, 23:46:46 »
Quote from: maxlugar;125904


...I remember seeing a post from majestouch that stated just the opposite...something like there was no noticeable key wear after a couple years of use.  I'll see if I can find that post...



This one:  I've been using a Filco majestouch daily for 4 years and the letters look as good as the day I bought it. Where'd you hear otherwise?

Posted by majestouch two days ago.
Emperor of the IBM 84-key AT Model F Darkside

Offline texteur

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 04:37:04 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;125853
having a matte texture is one thing.  but even the elitekeyboards rep admits that the COATING wears off quickly.  no matter how much you wash your hands.  so it is a short-term effect.

the topre cap texture will not ever wear 'off', because it IS the cap, but it will WEAR, and be shiny someday... but at least they use materials to avoid this.


I like to see the use that has been made of an object. No piece of furniture can be nicer than an old wooden family table with its old scratches, marks that keep remembrance of all the lunches and breakfeasts of good and bad days.

I think that keyboards belong to the family of the workbenches, those objects/tools made to work, to suffer and have fun, sometimes. This fair wair and tear of your keyboard is the proof that you use it. It's like the patina of time we can find in old and second-hand books: some scars, an old paper perfume and the name of the previous owner written on the front page.

Traces of human artefacts, vestiges of mankind...
IBM Model M Space Saver, 1391472, PS/2, US layout, year 1987 | Apple Standard Keyboard, M0118, ADB, Swiss French layout, year 1987 | IBM Model M, 1391401, PS/2, US layout, year 1988 | IBM Model M Space Saver, 1392934, PS/2, US layout, year 1988 | IBM Model M, 1391403, PS/2, German layout, year 1988 | IBM Model M, 1391403, PS/2, German layout, year 1991 | Apple Extended Keyboard II, M3501, ADB, ANSI layout, year 1995 | DSI Switch Mac Keyboard, SMK-88SMK88-EM/JM, Black Cherry Switches, USB 1.1 & 2.0, ANSI layout, year 2006 | Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional 2, white with blank keycaps, PD-KB400WN, Topre 45g switches, USB, UNIX key layout, year 2007 | Das Keyboard Ultimate, DASK3, USB, European layout, year 2008 | Topre Realforce 86U, SE0500, USB, ANSI layout, ergonomically weighted switches, year 2009 | Topre Realforce 87UB, SE1700, USB, ANSI layout, ergonomically weighted switches, year 2009 | Filco Majestouch "Otaku", FKBN104MC/NPEK, Blue Cherry MX switches, USB, ANSI layout, year 2009 | Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Touch, FKBN87M/EB, Brown Cherry MX Switches, USB, 87 Key ANSI layout, year 2009 | Filco Majestouch Ten Key Extended Keypad, FKB22MB, Brown Cherry MX Switches, USB, year 2009
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Offline itlnstln

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 08:19:45 »
If all my keys were shiny like Ripster's Esc key, I would have no problem with it.  My issue is that some keys get shinier faster than others, so there is an uneveness in texture, and this gives the 'board a worn/old look.  If all the keys looked the same, it would bother me a lot less.
 
Like ripster said, shiny happens.  It would happen slower with a different plastic and texture, perhaps, but it still happens.  The key here (no pun intended) is that the letters do not wear like in lesser keyboards with printed caps.


Offline texteur

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 08:40:29 »
Quote from: ripster;125814
I kinda like shiny.
Show Image


From what do you have so much to escape? ;-)
IBM Model M Space Saver, 1391472, PS/2, US layout, year 1987 | Apple Standard Keyboard, M0118, ADB, Swiss French layout, year 1987 | IBM Model M, 1391401, PS/2, US layout, year 1988 | IBM Model M Space Saver, 1392934, PS/2, US layout, year 1988 | IBM Model M, 1391403, PS/2, German layout, year 1988 | IBM Model M, 1391403, PS/2, German layout, year 1991 | Apple Extended Keyboard II, M3501, ADB, ANSI layout, year 1995 | DSI Switch Mac Keyboard, SMK-88SMK88-EM/JM, Black Cherry Switches, USB 1.1 & 2.0, ANSI layout, year 2006 | Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional 2, white with blank keycaps, PD-KB400WN, Topre 45g switches, USB, UNIX key layout, year 2007 | Das Keyboard Ultimate, DASK3, USB, European layout, year 2008 | Topre Realforce 86U, SE0500, USB, ANSI layout, ergonomically weighted switches, year 2009 | Topre Realforce 87UB, SE1700, USB, ANSI layout, ergonomically weighted switches, year 2009 | Filco Majestouch "Otaku", FKBN104MC/NPEK, Blue Cherry MX switches, USB, ANSI layout, year 2009 | Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Touch, FKBN87M/EB, Brown Cherry MX Switches, USB, 87 Key ANSI layout, year 2009 | Filco Majestouch Ten Key Extended Keypad, FKB22MB, Brown Cherry MX Switches, USB, year 2009
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Offline timw4mail

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 08:44:39 »
Quote from: texteur;125954
From what do you have so much to escape? ;-)

Strange how the key is so shiny that its actually less reflective than the keys around it.
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline AndrewZorn

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 09:12:21 »
Quote from: texteur;125935
I like to see the use that has been made of an object. No piece of furniture can be nicer than an old wooden family table with its old scratches, marks that keep remembrance of all the lunches and breakfeasts of good and bad days.

I think that keyboards belong to the family of the workbenches, those objects/tools made to work, to suffer and have fun, sometimes. This fair wair and tear of your keyboard is the proof that you use it. It's like the patina of time we can find in old and second-hand books: some scars, an old paper perfume and the name of the previous owner written on the front page.

Traces of human artefacts, vestiges of mankind...

no, the table you describe would not have some crappy varnish on top, peeling at the edges.  it would be wood worn smooth from use.

Offline texteur

  • Posts: 42
Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 09:25:52 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;125965
no, the table you describe would not have some crappy varnish on top, peeling at the edges.  it would be wood worn smooth from use.


That's true, I admit!
IBM Model M Space Saver, 1391472, PS/2, US layout, year 1987 | Apple Standard Keyboard, M0118, ADB, Swiss French layout, year 1987 | IBM Model M, 1391401, PS/2, US layout, year 1988 | IBM Model M Space Saver, 1392934, PS/2, US layout, year 1988 | IBM Model M, 1391403, PS/2, German layout, year 1988 | IBM Model M, 1391403, PS/2, German layout, year 1991 | Apple Extended Keyboard II, M3501, ADB, ANSI layout, year 1995 | DSI Switch Mac Keyboard, SMK-88SMK88-EM/JM, Black Cherry Switches, USB 1.1 & 2.0, ANSI layout, year 2006 | Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional 2, white with blank keycaps, PD-KB400WN, Topre 45g switches, USB, UNIX key layout, year 2007 | Das Keyboard Ultimate, DASK3, USB, European layout, year 2008 | Topre Realforce 86U, SE0500, USB, ANSI layout, ergonomically weighted switches, year 2009 | Topre Realforce 87UB, SE1700, USB, ANSI layout, ergonomically weighted switches, year 2009 | Filco Majestouch "Otaku", FKBN104MC/NPEK, Blue Cherry MX switches, USB, ANSI layout, year 2009 | Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Touch, FKBN87M/EB, Brown Cherry MX Switches, USB, 87 Key ANSI layout, year 2009 | Filco Majestouch Ten Key Extended Keypad, FKB22MB, Brown Cherry MX Switches, USB, year 2009
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Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:02:52 »
So, has the OP been told "not to judge his filco, but to love it"?  In accordance with GH's new policy of selling filco's at any cost?

I mean how dare he threaten filco sales with such a question! xD

Right?  xD

I didnt read the 44 posts above, I figure they'll just piss me off.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline itlnstln

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:17:03 »
The answer is two parts:
 
-Filco keys go shiny quickly; this sucks and is a trait shared by, generally, lower quality keyboards.
 
-Plastic is plastic, and regardless of the type or how long it takes, it will eventually go shiny.  It might take a week, it might take a year, it might take five years, but it's going to happen.
 
The idea is to present the facts, and let people draw their own conclusions.  I, for one, think that Filco caps going shiny in about 2 weeks is indicitave of low quality since I have a keyboard with POM caps that look brand new, and I have had that 'board longer.  To say, however, that the other 'board's keys will never go shiny would be silly.


Offline msiegel

  • Posts: 1230
Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:25:49 »
Quote from: wellington1869;126039
So, has the OP been told "not to judge his filco, but to love it"?  In accordance with GH's new policy of selling filco's at any cost?

I mean how dare he threaten filco sales with such a question! xD

Right?  xD

I didnt read the 44 posts above, I figure they'll just piss me off.


come on welly, you know they don't make keyboards "like they used to".

and by they i mean everybody :)

Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
Model F Mod Log * Open Source Generic keyboard controller

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:35:33 »
Quote from: ripster;126060
I'm not even using the standard issue keys

...


Offline AndrewZorn

  • Posts: 1086
Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:45:11 »
he meant to do ,,, but the comma was so worn he got confused

Offline itlnstln

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:46:07 »
Dammit, I think even my keycaps are transposed.


Offline itlnstln

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:50:29 »
The keys on my M1s went shiny just as fast, but I have the older model.  Maybe they changed the coating when they changed the font on the keys.


Offline mike2h

  • Posts: 108
Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:57:17 »
lmao -> posts 51-53

i know my lettering will never wear of on my deck, but was wondering about the feel of my keys- they are almost smooth with a very lite texture that i really like. while i would prefer for them to stay in their prisitne state this obviously isnt going to happen. the keys are concave so they tend to 'catch' my fingers anyway so losing that little bit of texture is non issue, just an asthetics thing.
 its no big deal, just a curiosty thing brought on by the heated battle in this thread. :)

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 12:59:20 »
Quote from: itlnstln;126055

The idea is to present the facts, and let people draw their own conclusions.  

This is exactly what I'd like to see on this site... and that means from time to time we will have to say things vendors dont want us to say, even on threads where vendors are participating.

Quote

-Plastic is plastic, and regardless of the type or how long it takes, it will eventually go shiny.  It might take a week, it might take a year, it might take five years, but it's going to happen.


but the devil is in the details -- coating coming off in a month versus letters wearing off after 5 years (as on my toshiba laptop) are very, very different things, and worth differentiating between.  Let alone differences between key construction itself.

Quote

 To say, however, that the other 'board's keys will never go shiny would be silly.


at the same time, to even imply that printed keys are the same as laser etched keys or dye sublimated keys or double shot keys, would be equally silly, right?  
Ripster taught me that. There's a reason why YOU GUYS taught ME the VALUE of the different types of keys, and why I came to believe that consumers -- as part of their awareness when they shell out big bucks for an expensive keyboard - should be made aware of those differences too.

Only an informed consumer can be a non-sucker in this marketplace which is filled with crappy elements on boards sold as, er, whats the word?  Special? High Class? Lets just say "expensive".

For instance, if I want crappy controllers and keys that wear, I shouldnt have to spend more than $20 on amazon. One has to know what they're getting and what they're not getting for this kind of money. And that means we have to be able to discuss good and bad points freely.

We have to be able to inform consumers when we find differences in quality in different constructions (in controllers, in keys, whatever). And not feel uncomfortable that we're going to hurt a vendor's feelings.

The vendors would like nothing more than for us to say that the flaws on that vendor's boards "are just like" the flaws on "any" board. But thats just not true. Different boards have different flaws. Some ARE better than others in certain things, even at similar price points.

Its up to the consumer to decide based on their purchasing priorities. But they cant decide if they're not informed. Ripster's tests of different keys (and his discussion of comparative quality) is invaluable. It taught me to be more aware of key differences where I was not aware before. Why would anyone (even ripster himself) want to downplay the value of that awareness? Where else would such a discussion take place on the internet except at geekhack? So long as it remains free and an enthusiasts site rather than a shopping mall, that is.

The only thing we can count on vendors to do is make a sales pitch. I'm not going to participate in that. They dont need help from us in making the monolithic sales pitch.

If a vendor has a crappy return policy - we should be able to say so without fear. Return policy's arent "the same" any more than keys are.

I'll get off the soap box now, but I feel I cant make these points strongly enough.  I really dont want to see GH be infiltrated by vendors talking points. This is really a structural change in the make-up of the site, I feel, and something worth discussing and guarding against.
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 October 2009, 13:05:45 by wellington1869 »

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 13:01:14 »
Quote from: webwit;126087
Note that the M1 coating was defined as the inferior one.

That said, I couldn't tell the difference between them and my Majestouch.  My M1s are the older model/revision, though, so it might have had the same coating as the Majestouch.  I couldn't imagine it being any worse, though.


Offline AndrewZorn

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Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 13:03:44 »
Quote from: wellington
wapkwfopyufkwpowfke
yeah that's basically the post that sums it up, without the jokes.

i mean, i should make a keyboard with G15 keycaps and an old DAS controller and the Deck layout...
BUT AS LONG AS IT HAS THOSE CHERRY SWITCHES... ZOMG!

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 13:11:44 »
Quote
but the devil is in the details -- coating coming off in a month versus letters wearing off after 5 years (as on my toshiba laptop) are very, very different things, and worth differentiating between. Let alone differences between key construction itself.

Apples and oranges.  The letters don't wear off on the Filco, either.  This is exactly the point.  The coating might come off and the plastic goes shiny, but the letters don't wear off.
 
I bet the caps on your Toshiba are pretty shiny, too.


Offline AndrewZorn

  • Posts: 1086
Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 13:17:18 »
Quote from: itlnstln;126096
Apples and oranges.  The letters don't wear off on the Filco, either.  This is exactly the point.  The coating might come off and the plastic goes shiny, but the letters don't wear off.
 
I bet the caps on your Toshiba are pretty shiny, too.

but this is exactly the point.

no spraypaint: letters take years to wear, quality still not as good as doubleshot, blah blah blah... FINE.  that's ok.  the filco is cheaper.

spraypaint: keys look crappier after a month.  years down the line there's still going to be some keys showing SOME coating, as in, still worse than just normal, even wear.

and with the incessant "ah well they have to cut costs somewhere so they can stay in operation, affordable products, $5 worth of keycaps is impossible, etc"... if they stopped spending money on this spray, maybe some money could be saved and put to better use.

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?
« Reply #49 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 13:29:20 »
(And with regards to Filco Key Wear, if the question comes up and anyone (the vendor or anyone else), asks again with a straight face, "Where'd you hear that?!", I'm putting links to this thread and related threads in the Alps Wiki, under a topic titled "discussions about filco key wear/key quality").
That was the question (by the vendor with a straight face: "Where'd you hear that?!") that launched this detour after all.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3