Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?

[itlnstln]

spraypaint: keys look crappier after a month. years down the line there's still going to be some keys showing SOME coating, as in, still worse than just normal, even wear.

See these posts:
 
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=125785&postcount=11
 
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=125814&postcount=19
 
Special K's keyboard is the first time I have seen this "spraypainted" phenomenon.  You are also assuming that you can see the coating.  Comparing my original, coated keys to my uncoated blank keys, there is no visible difference (other than Special K's problem); they look identical.  You can, however see evidence on the underside of a coated cap by some "waterspots" from the coating being sprayed on.
 
That said, and for those reasons above, I agree with you.  The coating seems pretty pointless, and they could save some money, hopefully for the consumer, by not using it.

[AndrewZorn]

an invisible coating, while invisible when uniformly spread, is usually visible at the 'edge' of where it starts and stops...
but i will say no more until i see it for myself (or don't!)

[itlnstln]

Here's my shiny spacebar (I had this in the key wiki but since it's coming up again). I can't tell where the coating has worn off. Pretty invisible transition.
 
And if we're gonna start QFTing all over the place (how annoying) this is the post that Majestouch was responding to. Technically all he was talking about was the letters, not the shininess.

Thank you, ripster.  I think we're all done here.  No more talk of Filco key cap wear.  This post/pic pretty much says it all.

[AndrewZorn]

okay, so maybe it really IS just that one guy.

[wellington1869]

Apples and oranges.  The letters don't wear off on the Filco, either.  This is exactly the point.  The coating might come off and the plastic goes shiny, but the letters don't wear off.
 
I bet the caps on your Toshiba are pretty shiny, too.

I see, so now the new rule is: printed lettering is same as laser etched?
on what basis exactly?
And on what basis are you saying the keys dont look like crap in the meanwhile while you're waiting for the silk screen to come off? Because you dont like "that one guy's" pictures?  
If you want more pictures thats reason to DEFER judgement, not hastily rush to it.


On what basis are you saying with such certainty that:
-while the coating comes off
-while the keys get shiny
Both indicating wear from contact with fingers,
-the printed letters are magically going to remain?

On what basis? Logic? nope. Faith? ya, faith.

My toshiba keys are shiny alright -- right over the half-erased lettering.

[wellington1869]

Here's my shiny spacebar (I had this in the key wiki but since it's coming up again).  I can't tell where the coating has worn off.  Pretty invisible transition.

thats strange, ripster -- the OP seems to have "noticed" it.

I was quite disappointed to find yesterday morning that the S key on my 1-month old FKBN104MC/EB already has a little spot in the center of it where the special coating seems to have worn off.
....Now that I take a closer look, I'm starting to notice a similar spot on the right side of the spacebar.

BUT IF YOU DIDNT, THEN THERE MUST BE NO PROBLEM HERE. I GUESS HE"S JUST NUTS, HUH?

Or did the cavalry successfully convince him he was seeing things?
Seeing things again, as we customers tend to do, I guess.

It must be our fault - OP, TRY PUTTING YOUR FINGERS LESS ON THE KEYS, THAT WILL "SOLVE" THE KEY WEAR ISSUE.

Ah, another customer's problem solved.

[wellington1869]

And if we're gonna start QFTing all over the place (how annoying) this is the post that Majestouch was responding to. Technically all he was talking about was the letters, not the shininess.

You used the right word ripster -- "technically".

Now, this is interesting.

So, geekhack responders in the thread should therefore NOT point out to the OP that:
1) the posts he was reading was about key/coating wear.  WHy not point that out to him? Only one reason.
2) Not point him to other threads discussing this. WHy not? Only one reason.
3) Not point out to him that long standing opinion at GH (not to mention the facts on the ground) are that nearly any other style of keyboard contruction will last longer than printed letters. Why not point that out to him? only one reason.

In other words, we should have -- like the vendor -- carefully delineated the conversation in a way that is carefully benefiicial to the vendor. Thats what ripster is saying. "Technically."

Fanboys? Maybe. Rushing to judgement? Sure. An abundance of misdirected politeness for the vendor? Of course.

Fanboys? Maybe...

Serving geekhackers interests? No.  Helping the vendor bury criticism? Definitely.

[SCTony]

I'll just chime in to say that this issue stopped me from seriously considering getting one of these boards. Everything else about them I like, but the finish coming off would just bug me. I keep waiting to see if they consider it enough of an issue to change the keys. I am in no hurry now that I've found a Model F :whistle:

[msiegel]

they won't, but congratulations on the model f

[ch_123]

I haven't had any problems with the finish on my Model F's keycaps!

*ducks for cover*

[wellington1869]

I haven't had any problems with the finish on my Model F's keycaps!

*ducks for cover*

I've never had an issue (or even heard of an issue) of this kind on any of the following keyboards that i've owned: any unicomp, any ibm, any non-filco alps, any scorpius m10, any cherry, any topre, any DSI... wait a minute - basically any mechanical board i've owned so far except for filco.

psssst, but dont tell the cavalry (ripster + itlnstln) that...

[msiegel]

I haven't had any problems with the finish on my Model F's keycaps!

i think they last indefinitely XD

btw, don't dark keys show shinyness more than light-colored keys?

[AndrewZorn]

wellington, im going to have to take your advice of touching my keyboard less.  i think doing this could greatly extend the life of my coating.

[ch_123]

Yeah, black keycaps seem to be particularly shine and wear prone compared with white or grey ones. At least Filco got the lettering right - Unicomp had to stop making their printed black keycaps, and the Black AT101Ws supposedly had letter wear issues. Same with the Das Professional.

I don't think it's any co-incidence that Topres have black-on-black keycaps.

wellington, im going to have to take your advice of touching my keyboard less. i think doing this could greatly extend the life of my coating.

Great for preventing spring-wear too.

[wellington1869]

wellington, im going to have to take your advice of touching my keyboard less.  i think doing this could greatly extend the life of my coating.

xD If you read the fine print in the warranty, i'll bet money thats actually required in the contract xD  You see, only you are liable for any undesireable thing that happens to/on/with your keyboard. xD

[AndrewZorn]

i take the time now to say that while i agree with wellington and the rest, i still think the majestouch line is really good for what it is.

in haiku form,

my filco is nice
elitekeyboards is good too
but why coat the keys

[wellington1869]

Welcome to Filco Customer Service:

Dear Valued Customer. Thank you for contacting Filco Customer Service. We understand that you have many questions regarding your Filco product.  Fortunately, we have a one-stop solution for all of them.  

For questions regarding key quality, please press the PLAY button.
For questions regarding return policy, please press the PLAY button.
For questions regarding controller limitations, please press the PLAY button.

Thank you for your business, and come again!

>

[AndrewZorn]

For questions regarding key quality, please touch your keyboard less.
For questions regarding return policy, please make an informed decision beforehand.
For questions regarding controller limitations, please don't type so fast.

[msiegel]

ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the age of mass production.

[wellington1869]

but why coat the keys

if you ask me there was likely only one reason to coat the keys - to protect the printed lettering from wearing off.
They wouldnt have to have worried about it if it was laser etched.  Its decal and printed keys that often come with a coating, like on my cheap laptops. They had a coating too. To protect the lettering for a little while longer.
Unfortunately they seem to have gotten the coating itself all wrong. As in gone after a month in the OPs case. At least my laptop's coating lasted a few years. And either way its not going to last 2 decades like on my M. My M keys arent even shiny yet. Nor would that matter cuz the letters arent printed on.

[AndrewZorn]

ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the age of mass production.

joking aside i hate when i hear that kind of thing

just because you are making an incredible amount (which i doubt they are, in this case) you do not have to sacrifice quality... there is not some world shortage of plastic.

i could cut corners on something i make 5 of a year.  similarly, i could decide to keep a product to spec even if i was selling 5 million a year.

if you ask me there was likely only one reason to coat the keys - to protect the printed lettering from wearing off.
They wouldnt have to have worried about it if it was laser etched.  Its decal and printed keys that come with a coating, like on my cheap laptops. They had a coating too. To protect the lettering for a little while longer.
Unfortunately they seem to have gotten the coating itself all wrong.

i could see this if they were being sneaky, and like i said, just trying to make it through the honeymoon period...
but if they truly thought this was a good solution (or even a solution at all) then that is just stupid.  it's like expecting one car waxing to last your entire life.
EDIT no, that's not even a good analogy.  but i cannot think of one, because i cannot recall a situation where a company came up with one technique just to cover its ass on a different technique aimed to save money in the first place, that for most purposes is fine.

again,
printed keys, no coating = fine... be cheap.  but this would be fine.
laser, doubleshot, dye sub = wow awesome keys thanks

but make cheap keys, then spend time and money coating them, to get an extra month out of the key style with the shortest lifetime?

[wellington1869]

ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the age of mass production.

...but without mass-production prices, is the point.  

I'll take mass production if it comes with the economies of scale and price-drops that its supposed to come with.

If i'm paying "special" prices I'm justified in expecting a bit more.  And there are boards out there that offer more in this regard for someone like me for whom this issue matters.

[ch_123]

Can you laser-etch white characters onto a black keycap?

[msiegel]

because the mechanical keyboard market is relatively small, this is as close to million-unit prices as we're going to get.

when it comes to reducing costs, i'd be more than happy to buy keyboard kits from an enthusiast run non-profit People's Keyboard Company -- maker of the world's best designed keyboards

[xyzzy]

I've never had an issue (or even heard of an issue) of this kind on any of the following keyboards that i've owned: any unicomp, any ibm, any non-filco alps, any scorpius m10, any cherry, any topre, any DSI... wait a minute - basically any mechanical board i've owned so far except for filco.

psssst, but dont tell the cavalry (ripster + itlnstln) that...

TBH, the Realforce 87U I got from you last month does already have a noticeable shiny spot on the spacebar. And it's not something that appeared last week, it was already visible when I received it.

I want to be clear, I am super happy with this keyboard and believe I got a great deal from you, plus the transaction has been perfect. I'm just saying that this keyboard (which is maybe 6 months old?) and has probably the best keycaps available today is already getting shiny, so I don't believe this is a problem only related to Filco keys.

The board I was using before the Topre, a Cherry G80-1800 I bought new (with black double shot keycaps), started to show shiny spots after maybe a couple of months of daily usage.

The one I used before it, a Cherry G80-5000 which I received almost new, (white double shot keycaps), started to show shiny spots in a couple of months too.

The same happened with another Cherry, a G80-11900 with black double shot keycaps that I bought new from eBay.

The Dell AT102W, with black keys, which I bought 2nd hand on eBay, I've already received with the letters partially worn off.

The only boards that survived in my hands a long time without exhibiting signs of keycap wear are the IBM Model M.

I never owned a Filco so I cannot say for sure, probably it's true that the keys start to wear more quickly than other keyboards, but maybe, I repeat, MAYBE, this issue is being exaggerated a bit.

[AndrewZorn]

Show Image

wait, so how long did the coating take to wear off that one?

[Special K]

Can you laser-etch white characters onto a black keycap?

the Black AT101Ws supposedly had letter wear issues.

I thought the black AT101W's did have laser-etched keys?  Regarding the wear issues, I thought the issue was that they weren't that bright to begin with.  Someone on here compared a brand new black AT101W to a heavily-used one and said the letters looked the same.  I don't remember where I saw that comparison though.

[xyzzy]

I thought the black AT101W's did have laser-etched keys?  Regarding the wear issues, I thought the issue was that they weren't that bright to begin with.  Someone on here compared a brand new black AT101W to a heavily-used one and said the letters looked the same.  I don't remember where I saw that comparison though.

I have a black AT102W and can confirm that the letters on the most frequently used keys are thinner / more worn than the others.

[xyzzy]

Maybe Welly will give you your money back?

Don't touch my Topre!!! :boxing:

[AndrewZorn]

OK, now I see it.  It's the bottom edge of spacebar (sorry for the fuzzy pic but it's Wellys).

Show Image

where did those white-on-black topre keycaps come from?

[msiegel]

you beat me to it. that's a nice combination

[ch_123]

I thought the black AT101W's did have laser-etched keys?  Regarding the wear issues, I thought the issue was that they weren't that bright to begin with.  Someone on here compared a brand new black AT101W to a heavily-used one and said the letters looked the same.  I don't remember where I saw that comparison though.

I think they were printed.

[xyzzy]

OK, now I see it.  It's the bottom edge of spacebar (sorry for the fuzzy pic but it's Wellys).

Sorry for the crap pic. And no, I didn't give her a bath in acetone.

[AndrewZorn]

topre did what they could to slow the wear... better materials, better processes...
and yes, they cost more...
but even TOPRE, manufacturer of the best keycaps, does not need to spraypaint their keys?  why not?  it would add a month to the life of those rough keycaps!

[AndrewZorn]

Stickers.  Post is here.

Now I have found stickers to be ideal for those who are concerned about key wear.  Never did like the Velcro though.

oh, i see, the filco solution.  got a problem?  slap something on top of it.

[msiegel]

paint, eh? i always suspected they weren't aluminum

[AndrewZorn]

look at that beautiful, intact lettering... it must have cost a fortune to make those!

where's the coating?

[ch_123]

The finish on those metallic grey caps isn't great, and I'm pretty sure I've seen wear on some. Then again, some of those keycaps are quite obviously the old grey/white ones that have been painted over.

[o2dazone]

Black Apple keyboards seem to have a problem too.  Fanboys stick an iSkin on it.  LOL - iSkin.

Show Image

iSkin sounds like some sort of weird Mac condom. Assuming they actually have sex, that is...

[msiegel]

hey ripster, do we know conclusively what the model m keycaps are made of?

[ch_123]

Pure win?

[msiegel]

ah, yes... pure win

[ch_123]

iSkin sounds like some sort of weird Mac condom. Assuming they actually have sex, that is...

Don't be ridiculous, we all know Mac users are asexual and reproduce through their feelings of excessive smugness.

[ch_123]

Model Fs yellow? This is news to me.

[msiegel]

Nope - they melted around 180 to 200 deg Fahrenheit.    I think Keyb_gr suspected the spacebar at least was of a different material because they tend to yellow more.

Show Image

I'm pretty sure IBM keys last so long because they are so rough, not because the plastic is super duper.  

Speaking of yellow, where's the Model F guy that won't ever buy Filco because of shiny keys?  He must like yellow better.

pvc is supposed to melt at 176F, abs at 221F
hmm... :)

[timw4mail]

Its not PVC it's PC.

PVC is PolyVinylChloride
PC is PolyCarbonate

[AndrewZorn]

i thought polycarbonate was clear
lexan is polycarbonate

[timw4mail]

i thought polycarbonate was clear
lexan is polycarbonate

Polycarbonate can be clear or colored. The white and black MacBooks have PolyCarbonate cases.

[SCTony]

speaking of yellow, where's the model f guy that won't ever buy filco because of shiny keys?  He must like yellow better.

Lol the only yellowing is on the rear leg extenders- just slightly faded. That's a gray card to give you some idea of the shade.

[msiegel]

polycarbonate melts at over 250F... i don't think those are polycarbonate