Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?

[msiegel]

awesome

* insert "half-baked" keyboard joke here *

[AndrewZorn]

OK, just thought of the definitive test.  Legos are ABS (wikipedia can't be wrong).  The Rit Dye escapades all concluded that a rolling boil (212 degrees.  Don't know why EuroLanders say 100, they must be WAY below sea level) results in warped IBM Model M keys.

So I'll toss some Legos and spare Model M keys into some boiling water and see if they react the same.  I'll also do the acetone test to both.

you destroy that which is closest to you so easily

EDIT and plastics are awesome
POM is my favorite plastic (started in liquid cooling products, not keyboards)
oh hey POM, right there under my fingers!

[wellington1869]

btw just to be clear, my argument here isnt even ultimately about filco's per se. Its about information flow on the site. Just in case that point has been lost, wanted to reiterate it.

Fanboyism (and vendor lobbying too) have their place in that information flow process, but both those things have an inherent tendency to bury counterveiling experiences and opinions. (Because, well, thats what they do).  Thats what I'm pushing back against.  

Filco's are fine keyboards IF you know what you're getting and arent blindsided after you buy it. But you wont know that if only the fanboys and vendors have their say.

[msiegel]

this line of thought reminds me of all the fake reviews on amazon.

that's one reason i really like GH's photos, videos, sound recordings and other documentary evidence of products' performance.

[mike2h]

ripster the stuff you come up with is great. sometimes i come here just to see what your newest post is.
bty, who do the darth vaders represent?

[maxlugar]

No problem with information flow I think - lots of it in this thread.

I do object to be called a fanboy along with ItlnStln.  We've both said the keys go shiny quicker than some other keyboards.  He's consistently commented about it and I switched to double shot keys (more for looks and feel but whatever).  And you haven't exactly been impartial.

But anybody seeing this needs to keep it in perspective and not get so spooked about the whole thing.  Even the OP isn't sure whether his is getting shiny or seeing a visible ring from the coating.

BOO!

Show Image

(from an ALPS keyboard BTW).

Anyhoo - we are all Geekhackers and everybody has different criteria in what makes a keyboard  great.

Show Image

Is it really true you're a bald shiny headed mo fo?

No wonder you don't have a problem with shiny keys  

[FourOhFour]

OK, enough picking on Welly.  Now on to the Apple Fanboys.

Show Image

Ugh. Those silver key caps were awful. I should get a pic of my brother's old macbook pro... it's worse than that one. The current MacBook keys get shiny quickly, but at least they don't change colors.

[texteur]

Ugh. Those silver key caps were awful. I should get a pic of my brother's old macbook pro... it's worse than that one. The current MacBook keys get shiny quickly, but at least they don't change colors.

Waw, awful! I'm currently using an "old" G4 PowerBook having exactly the same kind of grey keyboard. Fortunately, I've mostly used external keyboard and haven't seen such hideousness.

I've seen friends' MacBooks and their keys, already after some weeks of use, look shiny and worn.

Apple should really use better quality materials for their keyboards...

[wellington1869]

look at that beautiful, intact lettering... it must have cost a fortune to make those!

where's the coating?

exactly.

And as for fanboys on the site -- they dont need me to point them out. They speak for themselves, as it were.

[wellington1869]

Can you laser-etch white characters onto a black keycap?

yes - the scorpius m10 has laser etched white-on-black keys.

And it costs 1/2 the price of a filco.

Mass manufactured, inexpensive, laser-etched keys.

So its not even a question of mass manufacture being the cause of filco's lazy key quality.

(but dont tell the fanboy cavalry, they'll be so disappointed xD )
Ripster's going to be appointed 'director of US sales' for filco soon. His marketing campaign will distract you with legos, of course.
"Printed keys: Now to be seen as being the same as any other key".  Just dont look up his own posts from a week ago contradicting that view.

And if there is information flow in these threads, its only because the naysayers forced their way into the fanboy/vendor party and had their say.

[wellington1869]

Windows fanboy calls other people fanboys. How particular.

I thought we already had this argument, webwit. Maybe you missed something. I own a mac as well as a pc; I use open office as well as word; I use opera as well as IE.

But I understand that you need to score some cheap points with blanket accusations, as thats how you make your living here.

[wellington1869]

I don't think school is going well.  Welly seems stressed.

clearly what I need is a lego set to play with all day xD

[wellington1869]

Rippy, you're the biggest booster of blue cherris/filco that we've ever had on the site. You might not like the the word Fanboy, but I gotta tell you, it fits.

Dont get me wrong, you contribute regularly to objective tests and informational posts.

But when it comes to blue cherry/filco, you disregard your own conclusions and stated values.

That seems to be the definition of a fanboyism. I dont hold it against you unless you start collaborating with your "favorite" filco monopoly vendor to bury criticism and information flow.

[wellington1869]

Correction, welly has just been writing a large amount of walls of text in defense of MS crap because he actually hates them, and to see him as a MS fanboy would be a blank accusation. :sing:

lol, yea, this is my "defense" of MS products:
" it works for what I need. I'll use it until it doesnt. Not going to get religious about it in either direction. "


Some defense. Can you feel the passion? Truly shows 'fanboyism'.

Try again, webwit.

[wellington1869]

I'm actually trying to think what i've ever been a fanboy for on this site. The closest is probably the fukka switch. I'm still a huge fan of those (and a booster for those on this site). But then when I found out about the controller limitations, I didnt brush aside those crticisms to continue boosting the filco zero. I became the biggest critic of those limitations (and other limitations) on that board. And I didnt just blame the filco either, but the abs and the das too, and I pointed out it was a wider costar phenomenon.

(Now if I had approached that the way ripster approaches filco/blue cherry, I would have instead started making excuses for the board, saying things like "well, all boards have speed limits" (a vendor line -- and as if those limits are the same) along the lines of what ripster is saying now about the keys.)

Nor did I simply become a hater - I convinced mike and others to go ahead and buy a fukka board despite limitations of controller so long as they were sure they dont type fast enough to see the problem. So long as they have the information up front, they can make an informed decision based on their needs.

Information flow. Its crucial. Fanboys inhibit it. Vendors do too. And when they get together and collaborate, it really grinds my gears.

Printed keys are not the same as other types of keys. Matte coating issues have been mentioned several times even by itlnstln. Keys go shiny but after 1 month? Not on my M or my alps. Try 10 years maybe. Key contruction matters. Ripster taught me that (back in a more objective phase of his life).

Nor is it a matter of expense, nor is it a matter of white letters on black being difficult to etch. The M10 is living proof of that.  Its a design decision by Filco for which Ripster  and the vendor are bending over backwards to pretend its not an issue.

It may not be an 'issue' for ripster, but it may be an issue for someone who cares more about these things than ripster. Thats the point.

[mike2h]

good post welly. and my wife really likes her abs. blues up next lol.

[d2v]

Whats up with the fanboy mudslinging, eh ? All of us have our likes and dislikes, and all of us are vocal about them to different degrees. Its just a personal opinion after all.
What is the point in expecting fair and balanced commentary from any person?

[FourOhFour]

Here is some evidence which I could easily double that clearly proves that welly is NOT an MS fanboy. I repeat, nothing to see, please move along.

tl;dr

Also, I must question the sanity of anyone who finds that much to copy/paste.

[msiegel]

dudes, i just added a "fan of" line to my signature so people can see my bias

[patrickgeekhack]

Whats up with the fanboy mudslinging, eh ? All of us have our likes and dislikes, and all of us are vocal about them to different degrees. Its just a personal opinion after all.
What is the point in expecting fair and balanced commentary from any person?

You're right, we can never get someone to be 100% bias-free on any topic. Just by proving someone wrong on a particular topic means that we are biased (a bit or a lot).

[FourOhFour]

dudes, i just added a "fan of" line to my signature so people can see my bias

Ooh. I like that idea.

[msiegel]

troll-tastic

maybe we can get more people to jump on the bandwagon

[d2v]

dudes, i just added a "fan of" line to my signature so people can see my bias

Speaking of fans, here's something interesting.

[patrickgeekhack]

It's funny how a thread can get out of hand sometimes LOL.

[AndrewZorn]

i was thinking the same thing, but at least it's still on topic to some extent

[patrickgeekhack]

i was thinking the same thing, but at least it's still on topic to some extent

Are you biased to say this ? Just kidding...:becky:

[msiegel]

All these self-proclaimed fans don't impress me. For starters, for such a claim, you have to write at least a dozen walls of text in a single thread to defend your love. You are just wannabee-amateur fans. Fakes! There is nothing worse than fake fans. You are not leading the right, devoted livestyles, and yet you want to reap the title!

XD
dude, i'm designing and building my own keyboard out of ibm parts

that was pretty funny though

[wellington1869]

dudes, i just added a "fan of" line to my signature so people can see my bias

I think thats a fantastic idea too xD  I'm declaring myself 'fan of' fukkas. (still not a 'fanboy' in the ripsterian sense tho) xD

[d2v]

All these self-proclaimed fans don't impress me. For starters, for such a claim, you have to write at least a dozen walls of text in a single thread to defend your love. You are just wannabee-amateur fans. Fakes! There is nothing worse than fake fans. You are not leading the right, devoted lifestyles, and yet you want to reap the title! d2v's first assignment is therefore to live the MS natural schmergonomic keyboard life and stand up for this product.

Haha, nice bait, sire! Too bad I am not falling for it. :smile:

[d2v]

Interesting, the signatures are changing more rapidly than the actual posts.. :lol:

[wellington1869]

lol webwit, I love how you left out all my  disclaimers in my posts in that thread. Or the original contexts of those arguments which were specific points about firefox versus IE and opera.

Or my praise for opera and non-ms products. But I wouldnt expect anything different from you.

Did you even read that thread?

Did you even link to it? It would be good for people to go see for themselves what you refuse to show.

And your copying and pasting so many posts only proves that each post was short. But its so cute that you keep trying.

The only thing worse than a monolithic fanboy is a monolithic hater. You and ripster make a good team.

[wellington1869]

No I did not read your walls of text.

well then that answers all the questions here. Next.

You dont read, dont respond to the actual points being made, and simply have to blindly paint your opponents as mirrors of yourself.

Which is pretty much how you approach any issue and any argument. Oh well.  After a point I can let you speak for yourself too -- nothing helps my case more than your [strike]speaking[/strike] ranting.

[msiegel]

it's nice you guys have found each other, and enjoy keeping yourselves occupied...

[wellington1869]

The Webwit Show has begun in earnest.  Not a surprise.

Just has to run its course.

[BucklingSpring]

XD
dude, i'm designing and building my own keyboard out of ibm parts

that was pretty funny though

I wanna see. Feel free to RTFT me if you already got pictures on the forum.

[wellington1869]

Whats up with the fanboy mudslinging, eh ? All of us have our likes and dislikes, and all of us are vocal about them to different degrees. Its just a personal opinion after all.
What is the point in expecting fair and balanced commentary from any person?

nothing wrong with likes and dislikes. But what happens when one begins helping to bury counterveiling experiences, opinions, and criticism? Isnt that a step beyond merely expressing likes or dislikes, or merely amending misinformation?

Thats the point where I think its more than about expressing likes and dislikes; thats the point where monolithic fanboys, haters, lobbyists, or vendors, begin to operate. Its a different scenario than merely expressing likes and dislikes etc.

Its this latter scenario that i'm warning about, its the same line for instance that people worry about with amazon reviews being taken over by paid reviewers who are non-declared or non-obvious.  Ie, its the same effect.

because I feel that line was approached and/or crossed whenever filco blue cherries issues come up with certain people participating. Their arguments seem to blur too closely with vendor pamphlet lines. Where they 'creatively' begin interpreting the posts and conversations so as to bury criticism.  And that to me goes against the spirit of this site.

You're right tho that any site has to contend with this phenomenon. What alarmed me in this case was that for a moment it seemed like there was an active collaboration between a vendor and a couple of users. Thats the result of the structural change to this site that began offering vendor forums separately from the review part of the site. I'm still not sure that is a good idea for us in the long run. If that separation between vendors and reviewers cant be maintained.

I'll say again, filcos are fine boards, buy one if you want. Filcos here are just an example, they're not the main point. This point could be made about any board, any vendor, any switch. The point is about information flow and information access without fighting thru a wall of relentless lobbyists first who watch and police conversations looking to "direct" views towards their "correct" conclusions which are merely their spin being passed off as if it had any consensus. As if it were 'normal'. Their views dont in fact have consensus. Tho they pretend like they do.  Thats active salesmanship and "burying criticism",  if you ask me.

Its important for negative views and negative experiences to be heard, not merely brushed aside by a fake sense of consensus.

Its like the chinese internet on here sometimes.

[JBert]

Sigh - I think there was no silencing of arguments, rather some people are trying to pull a filibuster.
Up till now, only one guy showed some vague picture of a FUBAR keyboard. Everything else seems just general shinyness - the patina of any well-used keyboard.

Those against shiny keys may want to look into concrete keycaps.

Just one question welly. Do you really think anyone read your walls of text in defense of MS products? I know you invested hours into it, despite not being an MS fanboy but just for a balanced, humanitarian view, and might have some fantasies, but do you really?

Last time I checked, this was a topic about Filco's and I don't see any MS product spam except for those quotes. ;-)

[timw4mail]

(*sigh*) Is it too much to ask to stay on topic once?

[FourOhFour]

3.  Just wanna watch the fun.  These people clog up the freeways rubbernecking fatal car crashes.

Hey! I do not ruberneck car wrecks.

I do, on the other hand, ruberneck thread wrecks.

I suppose I should make an on-topic comment. Sorta.

I'd say shiny keys after a month wouldn't be unusual (my MacBook was starting to show signs of it at that point) for most any keyboard. The Model Ms seem to be particularly resistant to becoming shiny (though the one I'm typing on today has a few keys that are shinier than others. Print screen is one, weirdly enough) while keyboards with matte finishes (including my MacBook) and those with, well, cheaper keys (my SMK-88, where all the keys except the F keys are shiny) are more prone to it.

Of course, I don't own the keyboard in question, so I can't comment on what is normal for that keyboard... and at that price, I would probably be a little disappointed if I had visible wear after a month. But it's gonna happen eventually anyway.

Don't want shiny keys? Try gloves or a keyboard condom.

[wellington1869]

Imagine if, when the Das controller conversation happened, we had had a Das vendor forum on this site.

How far would that Das thread gotten? I have to wonder about that.  Look whats happening on the simple topic of the filco keys? There seems to be a systematic attempt to tamp down disatisfaction, brush it away, "it happens to all keys!" they're saying now, whether its shiny keys (sure, but within a month?) or coat wear or anything else. Some of the same people who just a week ago insisted that laser etched keys would be better on a filco are now making apologetics for printed keys and shiny keys and worse.

How did that happen?  Could a Das rep have also this easily influenced the conversation about the Das controller too?  "It happens on all boards!" he might have said, a mantra that might easily have been picked up by the Das fans.  Who could have then formed a phalanx around the issue. I have to wonder.

I'm not sure vendor forums is a good idea. I guess time will tell. But maintaining the separation between reviews and vendors is critical for GH.  It was key to our past success as a critical and objective forum where enthusiasts could freely express criticism (and likes and dislikes).

[ch_123]

(*sigh*) Is it too much to ask to stay on topic once?

Yes.

I like Mudkipz. Who else likes Mudkipz?

[AndrewZorn]

i just use my topre keys and this

[msiegel]

ur makin me crazy with these double shot pics! :-P''

[AndrewZorn]

maybe i didn't catch it earlier, but did anyone see majestouch's new avatar?



the topre federation must never frequent that site again.  even the alpsen are more reasonable than this.

[wellington1869]

ok, ignore this post. I dont want to single out individuals any more than i need to.

instead, here is a pelican eating a pigeon:

>

[Rajagra]

My only opinion on the matter is I'm glad I don't look at my keys any more.
And I think this thread has earned this:

[wellington1869]

this is my last word on it. I think it says it all.

>

[AndrewZorn]

/glad these videos take way too long to load

[o2dazone]

this is my last word on it. I think it says it all.

>

[SCTony]

My Model F keys are starting to get shiny spots. wait...that's fried chicken grease. nevermind.