Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?

[msiegel]

My Model F keys are starting to get shiny spots. wait...that's fried chicken grease. nevermind.

whew!

[wellington1869]

Nice Sig Welly.

what, you just noticed?

do you like the part where it shows how you contradicted yourself? xD

I personally love how you went from "filco keys should be laser etched" to "its just shinyness! Everybody shiny!"

Shiny happy [strike]people![/strike] filco owners! In just 1 month of use! You too can be a shiny happy filco user!

whatever you do, dont talk about coatings.

Its got to be hard work rippy, plugging away post after post for filco.  I hope you're getting something out of it.

Another WallOText.  

rippy ya gotta worry if your talking points are now coming from webwit.  xD
Tho i do think you two make a cute team.  The Fanboy and the Hater. Sounds like a new TV show.
He's like your sidekick.

[msiegel]

hey where's my quote?

one of my keys is going shiny too y'know

[timw4mail]

I have some of my Model M keys that are getting shiny, but none are quite there yet.

[msiegel]

I have some of my Model M keys that are getting shiny, but none are quite there yet.

it seems to take awhile... like more than 15 years XD

[wellington1869]

[wellington1869]

You know the great irony here is I never noticed differences between keys until Ripster taught me to.  Isnt that funny?  So the delicious irony here is that I'm being more true to Ripster's own values than he is right now.  I learned to disdain key wear from him.  I learned the value of laser etched and double shot and dye-sub keys from him.

And I want to thank him for that. Making all of us aware of the value of decent keys was a great service Ripster did for geekhackers.  His posts on that are geekhack classics. Even if he's too caught up in his Filco Defense at the moment, I assume he'll come out of his reverie at some point.

[msiegel]

i'm pretty sure welly is a dissatisfied customer

[msiegel]

darn it, where's BS!

are people afraid of LOUD keyboards, or is it just better distribution...

[wellington1869]

The Filco Trooper
(Sung to the tune of The Trooper by Iron Maiden)

You'll take my silkscreen but I'll take yours too
You'll scratch my keytops but I'll rub yours through
So when you're waiting for the shiny spot
You'd better pray thats a thick matte coat

The click clack sounds as your typing begins
But on this battlefield etching wins
Your fingers fly on your keytops
But soon you'll see that glowing spot!

You try to complain and you try to run
You try calling those customer service bums
And as you carefully make your case
Out of the blue -- its Ripster's face!

Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh

"It happens to all keyboards, its just shiny!
Its all normal, no need to worry!
Learn to live with it, buy a sticker
But just dont complain about Filco!"

Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh

We try the vendor and all we get
Is Ripster's lines thrown back again
So now to touchtype you must learn
For in this vendor's policy there's no Return!

oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh

Whats this now, the keys transpose
Dont type too fast or you'll be hosed
Try to complain and see Ripsters face
As he gets all up on your case

You better leave Filco alone
You better run or else you'll burn
Ripster's got it covered, and he's not alone
He's got Webwit for that comic turn

oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh

And as I lay here gazing at the glow
My keys are blank, my scan rate's slow
My board blows and all I can say
I'll never see my $120 again

Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh
Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh

>

[msiegel]

ripster, you just got a song written about you

ahh, that's what this place needs: a rock opera!
it can be titled Welly

[ignoo]

Hey folks, I'm new here so please forgive some naiveté.  I recently posted about my beloved mechanical switch NMB keyboards of old, which apparently used the "space invader" switches no longer made.  I'm trying to find something close in a modern keyboard, so I ordered a Deck keyboard with Brown Cherrys (hasn't arrived yet); I tried a Topre Realforce 103UB (lovely board, but not my style); and I'm looking for a good board with Blue Cherrys.  Understanding the Das had a lot of controller issues, I was looking at the Filco Majestouch Tactile Click NKRO (FKBN104MC/EB).  Unfortunately, EliteKeyboards won't have any in stock until mid Nov, but they do have the blue cherry version with blank keycaps.

I thought to myself, "maybe I can buy the blank keycaps version, and replace them with lettered keycaps from some other kind of board with blue cherrys, since the stem should be the same."  So I did a search here for filco keycaps, and landed on this thread.  Reading the OP, it seemed the Filco keycaps may be of subpar quality anyway, so I was even more interested in learning if I can use keys from another board, but then the thread devolved into randomness for 15 pages  :(

I read recently that the new Das Keyboard Model S Pro boards use blue cherry switches, and now have laser-etched, white on black keys.  Can I buy one of those boards, and slap its keys on the blue cherry Filco?

[mike2h]

Hey folks, I'm new here so please forgive some naiveté.  I recently posted about my beloved mechanical switch NMB keyboards of old, which apparently used the "space invader" switches no longer made.  I'm trying to find something close in a modern keyboard, so I ordered a Deck keyboard with Brown Cherrys (hasn't arrived yet); I tried a Topre Realforce 103UB (lovely board, but not my style); and I'm looking for a good board with Blue Cherrys.

as far as i know deck kb(& this seems to be confirmed at their site) uses 2 types of switches tactile = cherry mx clears, linear = cherry mx blacks. so if you ordered a kb from them you should get one of the above, not browns.
assuming you purchased the tactile vers, i would wait till you have tried it out for a week before buying anything else. it may fit all your needs- the keys are very durable, the switches have obvious tactlie feedback but not to much in the way of noise unless you bottom out. depending on wether you ordered the ps2 or the usb vers will dictate amount of simultaneous key presses. dont know if that matters but saw you had mentioned an 'nkro' model above.
while i have minimal experience with mechanical keyboards(legend & abs) i really doubt you can find a better built, more durable kb than the legend for under $200 & probably above. jmo. & throw in truly excellent backlighting that, from reported life expectancy & actuall usage, will last at least as long as the kb & i think you will have a kb you will enjoy for many, many years- assuming your like the switches.  
ah, does that post make me a fanboy?  lol.

[ironcoder]

Ironcoder, prepare to be unhappy.

No kidding, it looks like it's already HAPPENINGGGGGGGGGGGGG :censored:

[ironcoder]

Is it just me, or have the quality "issues" of the Filco been blown out of all proportion as of late?

Like anything else it's probably the luck of the draw. I've been using mine heavily since I bought it and although the keys are already starting to shine after only a week of hard use and regular handwashing, the keyboard itself is a brick ****house, no issues.

I think they're priced fairly and work great. I really wish the long term cosmetics had better prospects but these are for using, not for photographing.

[ironcoder]

i think they last indefinitely XD

btw, don't dark keys show shinyness more than light-colored keys?

That's true, the IBM keyboards I've used have been decades old and still look like new. Maybe that's why I always liked grey/white keyboards. Never had any black ones until recently. If Filco would have offered them in white/grey I would have chosen that.

[ironcoder]

Now Welly could offer to take it back and send him a new one.  That would be good customer service.

Of course he should pay for the RMA shipping and the new one's shipping.

My gawd, is there no shame!?

[ironcoder]

btw just to be clear, my argument here isnt even ultimately about filco's per se. Its about information flow on the site. Just in case that point has been lost, wanted to reiterate it.

Principled arguments are not welcome on this forum!

(ducks for cover)

[FourOhFour]

Principled arguments are not welcome on this forum!

(ducks for cover)

/me throws a duck under ironcoder's covers.

(Randomness? Never!)

[Special K]

I'm confused.  First you said:

Yes. Filco keys get shiny quite quickly; for me, I start seeing signs of wear in about 2-3 weeks. It seems to be a combination of softer ABS plastic and the already smooth surface. That said, the lettering will not wear off in the process. The printing method used on the lettering is uber-strong.

But then you said:

Special K's keyboard is the first time I have seen this "spraypainted" phenomenon.  You are also assuming that you can see the coating.  Comparing my original, coated keys to my uncoated blank keys, there is no visible difference (other than Special K's problem); they look identical.  You can, however see evidence on the underside of a coated cap by some "waterspots" from the coating being sprayed on.

If you see signs of wear after 2-3 weeks, then how is my case the first time you have seen this phenomenon?  What's different about my case?

[msiegel]

I'm confused.  First you said:



But then you said:



If you see signs of wear after 2-3 weeks, then how is my case the first time you have seen this phenomenon?  What's different about my case?

there are two different effects:
1. shinyness
2. the appearance of a film or coating being worn off

[wellington1869]

Is it just me, or have the quality "issues" of the Filco been blown out of all proportion as of late?

yea, I hate when gh'ers blow things out of proportion:

Itlnstln: "Yeah, on both my Filco and ABS 'boards, the coating started to wear of in a matter of a couple of weeks. Now, my A, S, D, F, and E caps (as well as a few others) are completely shiney. I am going to replace them with blank caps soon, anyway, but it's a little disappointing to say the least.
The Cherry keycaps are still holding strong. That 'board looks as new as the day I bought it. " (here)

nanu: "That would explain the halo of coating still surrounding my F and J nubs, after a month. " (here)

skriefal: "You may be referring to a photo I posted a few months ago of some keycaps from my blue Cherry tenkeyless (purchased from Korea before the existence of http://www.elitekeyboards.com). It's definitely not dirt or grime -- that was the first thing I checked. The visual appearance is of fading or discoloration"

How dare these folks complain!  Where's the cavalry?!!! They only paid $100 to $150, dont they know thats a drop in the bucket?! And it happened after a several weeks!  What, they expected key wear to take longer? Thats just crazy talk!

My favorite tho is from Ripster: ""Laser-etched lettering is especially nice (Filco - you listening??)."

How dare he blow this out of proportion! Look at Ripster ranting here: "The cost cutting measures of keyboard manufacturers are starting to piss me off. In the volumes we are talking for some of these guys I wouldn't be surprised if dual shots cost them less than $5 a set. " (here)

Such an irrational rant, eh?  Yup, there's Ripster complaining about low quality keys yet again. Man, he just wont stop.

But sometimes I wonder if he has a point. After all, we're paying big bucks for these boards which are advertized to be high quality. (I mean, putting aside the controller, er, 'limitations' on the zero).
And after all, this is a critical forum and an enthusiasts forum.

So I'm thinking maybe ripster has a point after all.

Ripster, you've convinced me. We should really be fearlessly pointing out these issues, so that the consumer knows what they're getting and what they're not getting, and can make an informed choice based on their particular priorities.

Thanks rippy!

[wellington1869]

Principled arguments are not welcome on this forum!

lol, apparently...

man, when will geekhackers stop blowing things out of proportion? Ripster especially. He just wont stop about how low quality keys piss him off. He just goes on and on.

Well, I guess to each their own. Keywear might not bother a lot of folks, but apparently it bothers Ripster a lot. Thats fine, thats why we have a variety of vendors and boards to choose from.  Thank goodness for capitalism and market choice.

[msiegel]

my left alt is starting to get shiny, but no sign of a ring

[wellington1869]

my left alt is starting to get shiny, but no sign of a ring

well, this is why we collect different experiences on this site, isnt it  Add it to the library of end-user experiences. Someone was saying upstream that filco may have experimented with different formulas for the coating, which if true just adds to the different experiences.

[msiegel]

yes opinions change, man.

i want pics, sounds, videos, and descriptions... and considerations for me to consider. then i'll make my choices and live with them

[wellington1869]

All I can say is that that ripster sure is hard to please! He's one "picky consumer".  He's probably every vendor's nightmare!

I've never seen anyone put up as much text (and images, and analysis) as Ripster has, on the topic of key quality.

[wellington1869]

yes opinions change, man.

absolutely right! And that doesnt mean the previous opinions are now invalid. It just means some folks are prioritizing for themselves differently now. Does that mean they should attack others who still hold those former opinions as 'beyond the pale'?

i want pics, sounds, videos, and descriptions... and considerations for me to consider. then i'll make my choices and live with them

Absolutely right again - thats what i want too - On the other hand, what I dont want is to be told my priorities are invalid, irrelevant, irrational.  If I care about keywear, why shouldnt I know the full story? And make my purchasing decision accordingly? If I care about transposed characters, why does that make me 'beyond the pale'?

its about choices and about information flow -- back to my original point.

What I dont want is a handful of geekhackers ganging up with the vendor to pretend that these "arent issues". They are legitimate issues for some folks, even if they're no longer issues for other folks

[AndrewZorn]

i have to interject for a moment...

i think i can type faster on my filco with browns than i can my hhkb.

really
i did the test like 20 times
the hhkb just feels so much harder to push the keys

i cant tell if it is the switches, just the fact that the browns take less force to actuate, all in my head, or a result of me still not being able to NOT bottom out the topre.

resume discussion...

[Special K]

there are two different effects:
1. shinyness
2. the appearance of a film or coating being worn off

So itlnstln is saying he sees effect 1 after only 2-3 weeks, but not effect 2, whereas my pictures are more indicative of effect 2, not effect 1?

[ignoo]

@Ripster: Thanks for the quick reply.  That laser-etched key you posted  was indeed fugly.  It will be interesting to see how the Das Model S Pro keys compare.

@mike2h: You're right that the tactile Deck Legend uses Cherry clears, which from what I understand are closest in feel to browns, but a bit stiffer?  I'm going to take your advice, and wait until I try the Deck Legend, before trying a Cherry Blue-based Filco.  The backlighting on the Deck is supposed to be yummy.  I may be satisfied with Cherry clears, although I somewhat doubt it.  Since my aim is to get as close to the "space invader" switches of my NMB boards as possible, I will likely yearn for the audible click of blues.

What was nice about the NMB switches is you could hear an audible click on the way down and on the way up (during actuation AND release).  They weren't ridiculously loud either, because the keycaps weren't "clangy" like my very loose current board's keys are (Matias TactilePro 2.0), and I rarely bottomed out.

I'll post my thoughts, once I've taken the Deck for a whirl.  Thanks again guys!

[wellington1869]

...and what I dont want is for these discussions to be buried. The vendors would like nothing better than that.

If I'm a consumer looking for information on this site, dont bury these discussions -- lead me to them and let them be aired.

What we saw in the last few days was attempts (by the vendor and a few fanboy gh'ers) to bury these discussions as irrelevant. (For instance narrow interpretation of the discussion as only about 'letter wear', something Ripster wanted to participate in), or pretending that anyone who cares about keywear is somehow pathalogical).

It does not happen to all boards within "a few weeks", its logical to assume loss of coating will impact letter wear on printed keyboards, its not merely a manufacturing cost issue (m10's at half the price have lasered keys), its not merely a white letters on black keys issue (m10's again are that), etc, etc -- all we've seen is a looooong string of apologetics one after another. Why?  Its great if some folks arent bothered by coatwear, keywear, etc, but why would you want to pretend its 'beyond the pale' if someone does care about it? Or raises questions about the board based on it?  Don't bury this discussion (in defense of your favorite vendor) is all I'm saying. Information flow, not fanboyism.

[msiegel]

Does that mean they should attack others who still hold those former opinions as 'beyond the pale'?

nope, i've found it's best just to gently point out considerations to others. in my experience, people have to learn for themselves

on a similar note, it *would* be helpful to have concise, factual summaries of considerations (not necessarily issues) for different aspects of keyboard purchase, use, and maintenance.

that might include materials & longevity, noise level, customizability of certain parts, return policies... you get the idea. do we have something like that already? i'm not the best at finding things around here

[Special K]

Yeah, the key question here is whether you're seeing a perceived "Ring" around the shiny area.  In other words, is the coating border transparent or not.  I'm not seeing it on my spacebar but maybe it's different on the Alpha keys.

And welcome back to the post.  Lol.

Well you see the ring in the pic I posted on the first page, right?  I'm not sure I would describe it as transparent, but it is certainly a lighter color than the surrounding plastic, as you can see in the photo.

[msiegel]

...and what I dont want is for these discussions to be buried. The vendors would like nothing better than that.

If I'm a consumer looking for information on this site, dont bury these discussions -- lead me to them and let them be aired.

What we saw in the last few days was attempts (by the vendor and a few fanboy gh'ers) to bury these discussions as irrelevant. (For instance narrow interpretation of the discussion as only about 'letter wear', something Ripster wanted to participate in), or pretending that anyone who cares about keywear is somehow pathalogical).

It does not happen to all boards within "a few weeks", its logical to assume loss of coating will impact letter wear on printed keyboards, its not merely a manufacturing cost issue (m10's at half the price have lasered keys), its not merely a white letters on black keys issue (m10's again are that), etc, etc -- all we've seen is a looooong string of apologetics one after another. Why?  Its great if some folks arent bothered by coatwear, keywear, etc, but why would you want to pretend its 'beyond the pale' if someone does care about it? Or raises questions about the board based on it?  Don't bury this discussion (in defense of your favorite vendor) is all I'm saying. Information flow, not fanboyism.

i like good solid information too.

one thing that's a little confusing is listening to discussions before all the facts have been discovered...

a lot of opinions fly around in the process, so being able to wrap up afterward, and consolidate the information that was discovered in a separate place would be helpful. (with pointers back to the original discussion of course

[wellington1869]

If you guys want to compete on which particular features of keyboards each of us has gotten passionate about over the last year, believe me, I can portray you as having been 'beyond the pale' too. Are you kidding? Getting passionate about different aspects of keyboards is ALL this site DOES.

But we shouldnt start censoring those criticisms and passions based on what a particular vendor would like to see us do.

If I dont like coatware - based on reports on GH by perfectly legitimate end-users - after just a few weeks on my new $120 keyboard, by golly, I'm going to express that, even if that vendor happens to be present and pretends its a 'non issue'.  I'll take the GH reported experiences over the vendor's 'suggestions' any day.

If I dont like transposed keys even in principle, by golly I'm going to express that. Even if the vendor suggests I "type differently and everything will be ok". (?!)

If any GH'ers begin towing the vendors line on that, I'm going to criticize them too.

[msiegel]

If you guys want to compete on which particular features of keyboards each of us has gotten passionate about over the last year, believe me, I can portray you as having been 'beyond the pale' too. Are you kidding? Getting passionate about different aspects of keyboards is ALL this site DOES.

But we shouldnt start controlling those criticisms and passions based on what a particular vendor would like to see us do.

me?

[wellington1869]

hey, Tonto's back!



Where's your buddy?

These are important battles!

Well we cant all be nihilists.  If we were you'd be out of a job.

[Special K]

To the OP.  I looked again at Majestouch's photo of his keyboard (see the "All About Keys" wiki) and I didn't see rings but lots of shiny spots.

Have you tried cleaning the key and putting under bright light?

I just pulled the spacebar on my keyboard and it definitely is coated but no ring next to the shiny spot.  My Brown Cherry Filco also has a shiny spot (dang that Filco, somebody should complain about that!) and no ring.

Not sure why the alpha characters would be different.

Well when you look at the pic I posted on page 1, do you notice the lighter-colored region around the worn spot in the middle?  Is that what you mean by a ring?

[msiegel]

Well when you look at the pic I posted on page 1, do you notice the lighter-colored region around the worn spot in the middle?  Is that what you mean by a ring?

that S could use a good washing before further analysis

[msiegel]

Personally I advise laser-etched keys with coating on a Unicomp Model M with extra light springs.

:lol:

[AndrewZorn]

Here is my coated Blue Cherry spacebar again.  This is as close as I can take the pic.  A 1:1 shot - see the key above for reference.  Interesting that it looks so shiny even though I see pits at this high magnification.

Anyhoo.  No ring.  Maybe your key is different or the coating reacts differently to your "precious bodily fluids".

oh come on you expect me to believe that is NOT photoshopped?

please...

pixels, shops in my time.

[msiegel]

oh come on you expect me to believe that is NOT photoshopped?

please...

pixels, shops in my time.

fluoride, mandrake... it's fluoride that causes the rings...

[msiegel]

despite my high proportion of #8 posts, i do my best to keep them related

edit: dual cursor clusters? hmm, that's a neat idea...

[ignoo]

Everyone concerned about this should definitely buy a Das S.  Doubledogdareya.

Did they fix all of the controller problems of the previous Das gen in the new Das Model S Pro's?  If so, would the Filco still be a better quality board than the new Das model s pro?

[wellington1869]

yes opinions change, man.

absolutely right, and one of the issues here is on what grounds they change.

just about a week ago Ripster was still saying this:
"Laser-etched lettering is especially nice (Filco - you listening??)."

He "changed" only on Neodinardo's thread (about 2 days ago) when he decided to "defend" his favorite vendor.

What do you make of that?  I know what I make of it.

Sorry Ripster to call you on it like this, but I do think its immoral at some level. And its hardly news that you're a huge fan of that board and that vendor. But don't attack me for holding to the values you yourself held to just a week ago -- and held for good reason.  And dont expect me to change for the same reasons you did.

[You could have just let me and the vendor have it out. But you also then got involved (and came after me) on your own volition.]

[msiegel]

all i know is... i can tell people what i like and don't like at any given time, and send in pictures and descriptions of stuff i observe

whether the stuff i tell and show means anything... depends on what the reader makes of it.

one can analyze my opinions, but if one is going to make decisions, i'd be more comfortable with that person just looking at the evidence and coming to their own conclusions.

this is what i do, anyway

[maxlugar]

LOL - Immoral?  You really are making an ass of yourself in this thread.

To quote the comic genious Benny Hill:  when you ASSUME, your make and ASS out of U and ME.

[msiegel]

* i believe we've just been mooned *

[msiegel]

it'd be funny if that were an astronaut

get it