Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?

[d2v]

all i know is... i can tell people what i like and don't like at any given time, and send in pictures and descriptions of stuff i observe

whether the stuff i tell and show means anything... depends on what the reader makes of it.

one can analyze my opinions, but if one is going to make decisions, i'd be more comfortable with that person just looking at the evidence and coming to their own conclusions.

this is what i do, anyway

+1

This is what I find the most sensible approach. Express your opinion, as you perceive things, and be done with it. Leave the interpretation and decision to the reader.

[sprintf32768]

Sigh.  I remember the old days when we could all get along.  Was all this excitement really about shiny keys?  Put a tent over this circus.

I have brown and blue cherry 104-key FILCO boards and yes, the matte finish started wearing after a month or so.  This does not bother me at all, but I would say it is normal -- it happened to another guy in the office as well.  So in my experience it is typical.

And I have the infamous Filco Zero (Fukka) and so far it has not been getting shiny.  This also does not bother me.

If so, would the Filco still be a better quality board than the new Das model s pro?

Oh, it's time for my sideshow!  Let me just park my clown car...

Ripster states the fact, which is that none of us have operated a Model S.  It probably doesn't even exist, it's just more marketing balogna from Das.  I kid.  I'm a kidder.

So, totally blind, I would say: Of course the FILCO is the better board.  It doesn't have a mirror finish or an affectation for a name.  It isn't 80% hype.  You can trust FILCO, but you can not trust Das -- they spent far too many months selling broken keyboards and denying the problem.

  The FILCO is for O.G.s, it's for authentic appreciators of keyboard purity. The Das is what you buy if you have not done your homework.  The Das is what the 14-year-old kid next door bought to impress his 12-year-old brother.  No one but the truly Important People, people of great character and insight, only these people know FILCO.  These people, who in a previous generation would have been known as Great Men, will see the Das and say nothing because they are highly distinguished.  

But they have passed judgement and will know that you are an outsider, a philistine.  They will know you are distracted by baubles, a simpleton, a rube.  Somehow you will feel unlucky and wonder if the best moments of your life are behind you.  Sometimes when you are typing you start crying for no reason and wonder what happened to your dreams.

[ironcoder]

They are good boards but they could be even better. I'm happy with mine and I think they're priced fairly and made extremely well. Still, the keys shouldn't shine even after hard use. My space bar already shows wear after a week of use. That is not very encouraging.

Is it fatal? No. Do I hate Filco and Majestouch? Not at all. Do I wish they would listen to the feedback and improve the product?  Most definitely. The vendors should listen and make improvements. I'm sure Majestouch wants to or he wouldn't be on the forums. He's smart enough to know good business is giving the customer what he wants. But he doesn't make these keyboards, all he can do is give the feedback to Filco. I'm sure he's doing that. The Japanese don't have a reputation for bad cosmetics in their products and I believe they're concerned about it.

Maybe if Majestouch would explain how he's making sure these comments get to the manufacturer it would make people feel better about the issue. If they change the keycaps maybe they would even make them available to people who already bought boards and had the problem.

I don't blame people for getting upset about this particular issue, though. I use keyboards for my work, I'm more utilitarian about my equipment. I have other hobbies where I would react the same way if something started looking bad or wearing after a short time. Cosmetics can matter to some people and the fit and finish of any niche product is an important part of the product as a whole.

I'm sorry to see the tension on this thread though. You guys know a lot about keyboards and passionate about them. If you hang around forums long enough and have any strong opinions about things you will eventually get into arguments. Just don't let them get personal.

[ironcoder]

Why is the "African American" character eating popcorn. Is that some kind of slur on movie theatres? :drama:

More to the point, why is Darth Vader so shiny? I thought he was supposed to come in a matte finish. How long has he been in use?

[timw4mail]

I'm kind of anxious for the blank "Filco" keys on my Scorpius to get shiny. The home row is starting to shine, when the rest follow, I think it will be a lot more aesthetically pleasing than the matte finish the keys came with.

Compared to getting the double shots from that new G81 shiny though, this is an easy task.

Oh, and I hadn't really heavily used this keyboard a week before the home row started to shine, so it really doesn't take much to make a blank Filco key shiny.

Obviously I can't say anything about the lettering, though.

[itlnstln]

So itlnstln is saying he sees effect 1 after only 2-3 weeks, but not effect 2, whereas my pictures are more indicative of effect 2, not effect 1?

This is correct.  I have never seen effect 2.  Ripster's pics are what my keys look like after about 2-3 weeks of use.  After having my blank (and uncoated) keys for about 4 weeks or so, almost my entire homerow is shiny along with E, R, and T.
 
 
Man, I'm glad I don't come here on the weekends.

[itlnstln]

I like how you turn the heads without moving the hair/hats.
 
Oh yeah, does that fall under #9 for OT posts?

[alpslover]

I have brown and blue cherry 104-key FILCO boards and yes, the matte finish started wearing after a month or so.  This does not bother me at all, but I would say it is normal -- it happened to another guy in the office as well.  So in my experience it is typical.

And I have the infamous Filco Zero (Fukka) and so far it has not been getting shiny.  This also does not bother me.

there are shiny keys on all of my filco keyboards, but it doesn't bother me.  my keyboards get used and abused, so wear is inevitable.  that is not to say it wouldn't be nice to have keys that didn't wear as quickly.  my bottom line is, as long as the functionality of the keyboard is not compromised, it won't bother me much.  

what is 'normal', though, depends on perspective.  i'd say for keys to become shiny in a month of regular use is normal for a $2 bundled rubber dome keyboard.  and maybe it's also normal for filco keyboards.  but for someone who is used to older keyboards that might take years of pounding before the keys become shiny, it might not seem so normal.

[itlnstln]

there are shiny keys on all of my filco keyboards, but it doesn't bother me. my keyboards get used and abused, so wear is inevitable. that is not to say it wouldn't be nice to have keys that didn't wear as quickly. my bottom line is, as long as the functionality of the keyboard is not compromised, it won't bother me much.
 
what is 'normal', though, depends on perspective. i'd say for keys to become shiny in a month of regular use is normal for a $2 bundled rubber dome keyboard. and maybe it's also normal for filco keyboards. but for someone who is used to older keyboards that might take years of pounding before the keys become shiny, it might not seem so normal.

This. The shiny keys in-and-of-themselves don't bother me as this is a fact of life when dealing with plastic that gets fondled by human hands a lot.  Like you, though, keys going shiny after only a few weeks is something I think of when talking about the $2 rubber dome keyboards, not something of the quality (perceived or real) of keyboards like Topre and Filco.  That said, my Filco still works great shiny keys or not, and I am glad I made the investment
 
Now, what happened to that guy who was talking about POM keys for Filcos?

[msiegel]

I'm kind of anxious for the blank "Filco" keys on my Scorpius to get shiny. The home row is starting to shine, when the rest follow, I think it will be a lot more aesthetically pleasing than the matte finish the keys came with.

Compared to getting the double shots from that new G81 shiny though, this is an easy task.

Oh, and I hadn't really heavily used this keyboard a week before the home row started to shine, so it really doesn't take much to make a blank Filco key shiny.

Obviously I can't say anything about the lettering, though.

this is an interesting turn of events...

now we have to figure out how to make keys shiny *faster*! XD

[timw4mail]

The thing with shiny keys is that they don't show fingerprints like shiny things normally do, so they look better.

Of course, the Filco keys are rather gray compared to the high-contrast double-shot keys from my G81.

[itlnstln]

Lotions and, perhaps, certain kinds of soap, food oils, etc. can all speed the shining process up.  I think (heavily) textured keys, like ripster said, are out of style.  This doesn't help, either, since the keys are already pretty smooth even before we put our grubby little hands on them.
 
Where are those POM keys for Filcos?

[timw4mail]

Lotions and, perhaps, certain kinds of soap, food oils, etc. can all speed the shining process up.  I think (heavily) textured keys, like ripster said, are out of style.  This doesn't help, either, since the keys are already pretty smooth even before we put our grubby little hands on them.
 
Where are those POM keys for Filcos?

I understand the interest in POM, but personally, I think that lasered keys look a lot worse when they age than double-shot. I would pay extra for double-shot POM keys, but not lasered.

[msiegel]

does anyone routinely manufacture POM double-shot keys with a Cherry interface?

[timw4mail]

does anyone routinely manufacture POM double-shot keys with a Cherry interface?

As far as I know, Cherry is the only company that usually has double-shot keys, and I think they are ABS.

That's why I assume POM are usually laser.

[itlnstln]

I understand the interest in POM, but personally, I think that lasered keys look a lot worse when they age than double-shot. I would pay extra for double-shot POM keys, but not lasered.

I don't care about key printing.  It could be anything, really (or nothing).  I just caps in POM material.  I think the guy pimping them awhile back said the ones that were designed for the Filcos were dye sublimated.  I agree, though, the laser-etching from Cherry doesn't look that great.  I would rather have blank keys or double-shots.

[ironcoder]

I don't think they had ABS in the 1970s but maybe I'm wrong. I always thought they would be bakelite or granite or some other wierd material.

[msiegel]

I don't think they had ABS in the 1970s but maybe I'm wrong. I always thought they would be bakelite or some other wierd material.

XD keyboards of the 1920s

i'm betting they're PVC

[itlnstln]

Whatever it is, it's pretty amazing how durable they are.  Both of mine are from '91, and they were both used when I got them, and I used them quite a bit more.  Niether one has keys that look worn.  Maybe it's more noticable on black keyboards, or something, but somewhere between different materials and texturing was a process that made some awesome keycaps.

[msiegel]

i couldn't agree more... old-school ibm engineering is fantastic

[timw4mail]

I wonder if they are perhaps Polypropylene?

[itlnstln]

I forgot to mention, too, that the two-piece design was ingenious as well.  It makes remapping keys very easy to do without a whole lot of surgery.

[ironcoder]

i couldn't agree more... old-school ibm engineering is fantastic

We call the computer room the "machine room."

If you ever tried to lift an 029 keypunch you would be amazed. They were built like bank vaults. Their stuff was awesome with a capital A. It's still great but not like the battleships they used to build.

[ironcoder]

Probably.  Pad printing doesn't wear well on Delrin (POM).  My trackball is now sliding around on Delrin bearings - tough stuff.

Show Image

Hmmmm..... the tip is getting shiny.

I have a few of those from Sun Studio. Now if I can only find them...

[itlnstln]

Just did the numbers.
 
We need 47 posts to exceed the "Das III Typos" post count.
 
We CAN DO IT! YES WE CAN!

Here's a useless post from me to up the count.  I was a little hesitant to post something useless like this, but it seems there's already about 20 pages of useless posts, so I don't feel so bad now.
 
Then again, I do have a knack for posting useless crap, anyway.

[ironcoder]

Here's a useless post from me to up the count.  I was a little hesitant to post something useless like this, but it seems there's already about 20 pages of useless posts, so I don't feel so bad now.
 
Then again, I do have a knack for posting useless crap, anyway.

Since I usually ask stuff and itlnstln answers I figured I owed him one. Here ya go, buddy. Don't say I never done anything for ya :bounce:

[ironcoder]

Question: is it bad form to make another post to add a question you forgot or should you edit one of your previous useless posts?

I was wondering because I thought maybe if I just edited it nobody would realize it was updated. I meant to ask this before.

[timw4mail]

I do wonder if the IBM keys aren't made of Polypropylene:

Melting Point: 320°F (160°C)

According to this website: "Polypropylene is also very easy to add dyes to"
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-polypropylene.htm

Or perhaps it is a mixture of Polycarbonate and ABS.

I'm just speculating.

[AndrewZorn]

i agree with this list
though my experience is limited

if only they made double shot keys that are shiny on all sides, to start with
uniform glossy indestructible goodness

[AndrewZorn]

okay i must have missed the 'depressions in spacebar' talk
what is this

[itlnstln]

Since I usually ask stuff and itlnstln answers I figured I owed him one. Here ya go, buddy. Don't say I never done anything for ya :bounce:

Thanks.  They might be wrong answers, but I try my best.

[timw4mail]

The Lasered White PBT keys on Cherry keyboards are probably the highest quality lasered keys that exist. I doubt there's much advantage to dual-shot above that kind of lasered keys.

However, the lasering technology for black POM keys could use some work. (Which is disappointing when looking for a Cherry keyboard, because the majority of them have this inferior lettering. )

There's also low-contrast dual-shot keys, like the ones on the NEC keyboard I've got. Those are probably about as high of contrast as the Dell keys, so the contrast isn't great.

As I don't own a Topre board, I can't judge the caps on those.

In some ways, I think the lettering method matters less on light-colored keys, because laser can be nearly as good as double-shot, and dye-sublimation works well, and is very durable.

With black keys, though, I really think the old good method of lettering is double-shot, which is unfortunate, seeing how rare double-shot black keys generally are.

[itlnstln]

Ripster, regarding #1 in your keycap heirarchy, is it just Cherry double-shots or maybe double-shots in general?  My Northgate has some beautiful double-shot caps, too, and how about your NeXT keyboard?

[AndrewZorn]

i think the whole idea is more about principle and hypothetical situations

[itlnstln]

How about someone just drop a quick line to Unicomp and ask them what kind of plastic they use for the keys.  I guess trying to figure it out might be more fun, though.
 
I would have written this post with my last one, but I'm trying to up the post count for this thread.

[timw4mail]

All of the lasered POM cherry keys seem to have that too.

[itlnstln]

Honestly, I don't think I have ever seen a bad double-shot cap.  It's a damn shame more manufacturers don't make them or, at the very least, dye-sublimated.  Both make for excellent caps.

[itlnstln]

All of the lasered POM cherry keys seem to have that too.

I have noticed this, too.  I don't feel it, but I can see it in the light.  It may be how certain types of plastic cools and in what environment.  We talk about this a lot in disc golf circles where different types of plastic or changes in weather/humidity can cool discs faster/slower causing changes in the dominess of the flight plate thus changing the flight characteristics of different runs of the same disc mold.

[itlnstln]

I've been saying that for a long time. Makes me a Filco Fanboy with you White Man.

True that, Kemosabe.

[timw4mail]

I'd be fine with all white/light-colored caps being dye-sublimated, and all of the darker colored caps being double-shot.

Black lasering really needs to die out...it does not age very gracefully.

[itlnstln]

What's the post count.
 
<5 year old>
 
Are we there, yet??
 

[itlnstln]

Black lasering really needs to die out...it does not age very gracefully.

It might be durable, but it's certainly not pretty.

[itlnstln]

You are kidding here right? Right?

No.  The faster a disc cools, the tighter and, thus more domey, the flight plate gets causing the disc to have more glide.  This usually causes the disc to be more overstable since it tends to pull the wing up, but it can cause a disc to be more understable depending on the overall design of the disc.  This is usually a more subtle effect, but in some disc designs it can cause a lot of inconsistency between runs of that particular mold.

[Rajagra]

okay i must have missed the 'depressions in spacebar' talk
what is this

How Greedo's friends feel in Mos Eisley Cantina after drinking too much and reminiscing about him?

(Did Han shoot first or was it a transposition error?)

[AndrewZorn]

wow two puns in one post
well, a pun and a joke

[Rajagra]

I'm available for (space) bar mitzvahs. :drum:

My IBM seems OK, but my Unicomp has a tiny depression (I can feel it more than see it.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0quf8byJcN4

[itlnstln]

That was pretty good.  I'm suprised I got that.  Admittedly, though, I didn't get it until the Han Solo part.

[msiegel]

I'd be fine with all white/light-colored caps being dye-sublimated, and all of the darker colored caps being double-shot.

likewise. good combination

[timw4mail]

So are you referring the the dip in the top of the spacebar, or to the molding artifact?

[AndrewZorn]

ripster, i checked as your images were loading (so i didnt even know what i was looking for at the time) and my HHKB has the same thing on the FRONT of my spacebar!  VERY small 'hole', looks like a popped bubble or something... much more uniform than yours though.   i must say i cannot see it without the aid of a very bright flashlight, though.

i thought you were talking about gradual sumps along 'straight' edges of plastic.  i used the light to look at the front lip of my HHKB which i know to have these... but the good news is that now i know they are not random, they are spaced methodically, so at least it isn't just random defects.

also had to try pushing down the left side of my hhkb casing again.  it still creaks/groans as the top/bottom halves get pushed together.  WHY DID I EVER EVEN TRY THIS

EDIT just saw your newest post.  what i found was a molding artifact.  i suspect not all my HHKB keys are THAT perfect on top, as under direct light i can kind of see waviness in the plastic, some parts darker than others in shapes that look like they have to do with molding