Filco keyboards - normal for matte key finish to start wearing after 1 month?

[texteur]

Looks like the Filco palm rest to me.

You're right JBert, that's simply a Filco wrist rest. I should pay more attention when I visit EliteKeyboards...

Thank you JBert!

[ironcoder]

Yeah guys sorry for the late reply. That is the Filco pad.

It is super nice and well thought-out but after having it for two weeks there are a couple things I would change. I would make the foam a little thicker to get some more height and I would lose the Filco embossing, it actually sits right where you put your right hand and starts hurting, it's cut deep into the leather and sharp enough to actually grind against your wrist. It looks great where it is because it's not garish or too prominent, but it bothers me enough that I turned it upside down (which is why you didn't see it in the pic.)

I do like regular el-cheapo gel pad and regular foam rests (the Filco is 40 bucks) also but I find the gel pads rip the hair off my arms and make me look funny. So far the Filco is excellent.

[ironcoder]

Just to get on topic a bit you CAN try Simple Green.   I just used it on the BACK of my keyboard (LOL - let's start posting pics of the BACK of the keyboard). I've noticed it does seem to make the matte finish more uniform.  That's what I found worked best on vintage black keys that are starting to oxidize.

Don't scrub too hard or you WILL get a shiny spot.

Thanks, I don't even know if we have that here. I used to use it but I found it greasy a little. I was actually thinking of using a black magic marker to even the color out. Not sure what I'll do.

[texteur]

Yeah guys sorry for the late reply. That is the Filco pad.

It is super nice and well thought-out but after having it for two weeks there are a couple things I would change. I would make the foam a little thicker to get some more height and I would lose the Filco embossing, it actually sits right where you put your right hand and starts hurting, it's cut deep into the leather and sharp enough to actually grind against your wrist. It looks great where it is because it's not garish or too prominent, but it bothers me enough that I turned it upside down (which is why you didn't see it in the pic.)

I do like regular el-cheapo gel pad and regular foam rests (the Filco is 40 bucks) also but I find the gel pads rip the hair off my arms and make me look funny. So far the Filco is excellent.

Thank you for your answer, Ironcoder.

I also have two Filco Tenkeyless (one linked to a Mac, one linked to a Dell). Yes, it looked pretty on your pictures. So... I ordered two of them yesterday. I hope these Filco embossings will not disturb me too much while coding.

You're right: sometimes, the cheapest solution is the most comfortable one...

[itlnstln]

You're right: sometimes, the cheapest solution is the most comfortable one...

Yep.  I am a firm believer in the "thick mousepad" type of wrist rests.  For me, they are the perfect height for almost all keyboards and they have the perfect "softness."  They give a little, but they're not too soft (like a nice butt).

[texteur]

Yep.  I am a firm believer in the "thick mousepad" type of wrist rests.  For me, they are the perfect height for almost all keyboards and they have the perfect "softness."  They give a little, but they're not too soft (like a nice butt).

itlnstln, could you give me an example (name of product/picture) of a wrist rest you consider as really comfortable (not too soft, not too firm)? I'm currently trying to find a good solution for my desk (I've never used a wrist rest, but my wrists start to hurt a bit after a day of work).

[ironcoder]

Look for a generic gel wrest in any computer or home gadget store. I found all the ones here are almost identical. The ranged from about 15 USD to 5 dollars depending on where I found them. Same thing with gel mousepads.

I used to get foam pads from conferences I went to for work. I think you can pick these up at electronics and technology shows for nothing but the price of admission.

The only unique well made pad I saw was from Filco which is why I decided to try it. Leather is alot smoother than the fabric pads they use for gel so in that way it's more comfortable.

[itlnstln]

itlnstln, could you give me an example (name of product/picture) of a wrist rest you consider as really comfortable (not too soft, not too firm)? I'm currently trying to find a good solution for my desk (I've never used a wrist rest, but my wrists start to hurt a bit after a day of work).

Here are some older pics of my work setup: http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=68555&postcount=247.  The keyboards have changed, but I still use these rests.

[texteur]

Here are some older pics of my work setup: http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=68555&postcount=247.  The keyboards have changed, but I still use these rests.

Thank you for the pictures, itlnstln.

Your keyboards were already nice! What kind of mouse is it near your Omnikey? I like its shape.

[itlnstln]

Thank you for the pictures, itlnstln.
 
Your keyboards were already nice! What kind of mouse is it near your Omnikey? I like its shape.

Thanks.  In the Northgate spot is my Filco, currently, and in the Model M spot is my Cherry ML4100 (it takes up less space).
 
My mouse is the MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000.  It's the best mouse I have ever used.  It completely cured me of wrist pain.  It's a great mouse for office work, too.  It might not be the greatest for games since it has a smooth scroll wheel (which I like for office work).  I really want to get into this CH trackball I just got, but I don't have scroll functionality in all my software with it, so I think I will use at home on my HTPC.

[texteur]

My mouse is the MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000.  It's the best mouse I have ever used.  It completely cured me of wrist pain.  It's a great mouse for office work, too.  It might not be the greatest for games since it has a smooth scroll wheel (which I like for office work).  I really want to get into this CH trackball I just got, but I don't have scroll functionality in all my software with it, so I think I will use at home on my HTPC.

Once again, thanks for the information. I've discovered that the Apple Store was selling this particular Microsoft Mouse. Cool! I'm not ready for the sleek Apple Magic Mouse...

[itlnstln]

If you decide to get one, get it from Newegg.  They're only around $35 there.

[texteur]

If you decide to get one, get it from Newegg.  They're only around $35 there.

Newegg have it for $40 but "For OEM Purchase Only - distribution with system hardware required".

If I buy the "retail" model, it'll be $60. If I add shipping cost to... Switzerland (homeland of Logitech -- I live 15 min. away from Logitech Headquarters), it'll be too expensive :clock:

I'll try to find it in a local pet shop.

[itlnstln]

Oh crap, I didn't even notice that you are in Switzerland, my bad.

[texteur]

Oh crap, I didn't even notice that you are in Switzerland, my bad.

It's hard for a keyboard-addict to live in Switzerland, because everytime I order a (real) keyboard, I must add $40-50 for shipping costs and $30-40 for custom fees. Imagine the final price of a $115 Filco!

It's sometimes hard to live in Europe...

[ironcoder]

Don't worry, we have it worse than you do. But my Lexmarks came through without any taxes. Lucky me! (I got to pay 100 dollars tax on a 300 dollar Filco order a few weeks ago...) Plus shipping of 75 dollars I basically paid 500 dollars for 2 Filcos. I could have had two Realforce 87Us for about the same price in America!

[itlnstln]

Dang, you pay a lot to live in a bomb shelter.

[texteur]

Don't worry, we have it worse than you do. But my Lexmarks came through without any taxes. Lucky me! (I got to pay 100 dollars tax on a 300 dollar Filco order a few weeks ago...) Plus shipping of 75 dollars I basically paid 500 dollars for 2 Filcos. I could have had two Realforce 87Us for about the same price in America!

Oh my holy Flying Spaghetti Monster, you really pay a lot! Hard to live into a bomb shelter ;-)

It isn't fair to say that, but it consoles me a little for all I've already paid to the govt. thieves.

I'd like to try a Topre or a HHKB Pro, but the price and all the costs convince me not to click on the ordering button...

[ironcoder]

Dang, you pay a lot to live in a bomb shelter.

Yeah but I save big-time on decor

[itlnstln]

Have you looked at doing any stained concrete to spruce up the place?

[texteur]

Yeah but I save big-time on decor

If you like bunkers, Switzerland will be your paradise. They're thousands of them on the whole territory, mainly in the Alpine range (they were in fashion during the cold war), and many are now cut-rated by Swiss Army. Some of them are real masterpieces...

[Rajagra]

We know where you are!

[ironcoder]

LOL Rajagra, that's a classic road sign, isn't it?

P.S. It doesn't matter if you know where I am, that's the whole point of a bunker, isn't it? :welcome:

[ironcoder]

Have you looked at doing any stained concrete to spruce up the place?

No, I just spill coffee occasionally or break a Chicony all over my office floor

[ironcoder]

If you like bunkers, Switzerland will be your paradise. They're thousands of them on the whole territory, mainly in the Alpine range (they were in fashion during the cold war), and many are now cut-rated by Swiss Army. Some of them are real masterpieces...

Thanks, that's a great link. Everybody should take a look at the pics.

So which one is your house?

[keyb_gr]

If you like bunkers, Switzerland will be your paradise. They're thousands of them on the whole territory, mainly in the Alpine range (they were in fashion during the cold war), and many are now cut-rated by Swiss Army. Some of them are real masterpieces...

A number of these are quite impressive indeed, really well done.

[wellington1869]

This is correct.  I have never seen effect 2.  Ripster's pics are what my keys look like after about 2-3 weeks of use. .

Itln keeps arguing that filco keys get shiny, but that the lettering stays put. For the record, I'd like to register my disagreement here: we dont have enough information to say that, and our past experiences with printed keyboards suggests that isnt going to be true here either.

For instance, itln has also said the following (or its equivalent) several times iwth regards to the filco keys, that while the matte covering comes off within weeks, the lettering 'stays put':

Don't worry.  I don't think you could wear off the lettering on the Filcos with anything short of a Dremel tool.

to which I say: we cant say that with any certainty, and our past experience suggests its not going to hold up:

itln, with due respect, you keep saying that, but i dont know what you base it on.

my toshiba keys lasted 5 years before they wore off. Laser etched keys presumably will last longer than 5 years.
5 years is a fairly long time for painted letters and maybe filco letters will last that long.  But there's still no comparison to other types of lettering.

We dont know cuz these boards are just now being bought, starting with this summer. In five years would you be really surprised to have geekhackers report their filco painted letters are finally coming off? I wouldnt.  I also wouldnt be surprised if its sooner than that.

Once the matte covering is off (ie, within a few weeks on filcos), it makes sense that the painted lettering is exposed to the wear-n-tear process at that point, and is inline with our experiences on other painted-on letters on other keyboards.

To say anything else is, I think, wishful thinking, since none of us have had these  filcos for 5 years, and all we have to go on then, is our experience with other painted lettered keyboards.

to which he responds:

Several members have had their 'boards quite some time (over a year at least) with no issues. Ripster wrote a thread on various keycaps (I think it's in the wiki now) where he notes the different process used to print the caps (and what it takes to damage it). There was another thread on making the Filco more "Otaku" where the OP could not remove the printing (done by the same process) without damaging his 'board. It's not your regular silk screening process. Hell, to be honest, I have never worn off silk screen letters on any keyboard I have ever owned, so, really, I don't think it's too bad of a process, anyway.

to which I respond:
"over a year with no issues"
-- it takes more than a year for printed keys to wear in general. As I said, my printed toshiba keys lasted a full five years, others a bit less than that. So I dont think 1 year is enough to say it takes a dremel, or to say printed keys are as good as lasered keys.

"could not remove the printing (done by the same process) without damaging his 'board"
-- I dont doubt that for a second, because the wear-n-tear process is UNLIKE using a dremel, it takes a microscopic layer each time. You wouldnt be able to replicate it with a dremel without destroying the keytop. So I dont think thats a fair test or conclusive in any way. You could devise a test with a mechanical finger that hits the keys a thousand times an hour if you wanted to accelerate the wearout process; but putting a dremel to it, ya, thats going to destroy the keytop. That doesnt mean the lettering was so firm that it cant be taken off without destroying the keytop.

So for the record, I disagree with itlnstln, to me (with all due respect) this sounds like wishful thinking rather than rational testing and seems opposed to what we've experienced together so far with printed keyboards.

[elbowglue]

For what it's worth, I just got a used Otaku Blue cherry 87 key filco board from another geekhacker, used about 1 month.  I love the form factor, I love the switches on it, it has the appearance and feel of a very high quality product.  Big thumbs up.  Only drawbacks is that it is probably too loud for use in office setting, it's a step louder than my chickony 5181.

I was concerned about the blank keycaps (not being able to find the !@#$%^ keys), so I got a set of blank keycaps from another geekhacker.  Granted, I don't know the history of these keycaps (how long they were used) but the used keycaps show significant wear, significant loss of whiteness to certain keys like the shift key.  I expected this of course purchasing the used keycaps, but over time your filco keyboard will wear down and be much less pretty with use - primarily because of the keycap appearance.

Don't expect your filco keycaps to look like new forever, if you are ok with worn appearing keycaps like I am, it is a non-issue.

I will post pics of the Kb in the review section when I get time to post a full review.

[ironcoder]

From my experience that won't make any difference!

[ironcoder]

You may have a point there Ripster. Either the guy lives in the desert like me or takes snuff like me or just doesn't clean his keyboards ever (unlike me, but after a day or two you can't tell.)

[elbowglue]

Brief cleaning with "kirkland household surface wipe" didn't seem to help..

The bright (like new) keys on my filco are very feelable, i.e. you can feel the raised paint that seems to be sitting on the keycap making the white lettering.  The worn keys (shift and control in particular) are actually very smooth, you can't feel the lettering at all from the paint.

I suspect the white paint on the keys is raised above the surface of the key, and after time the raised white paint wears off to an extent leaving the key with a more uniform smooth texture, but wiping out the whiteness of the keycap lettering.

[ironcoder]

Man, I'm still puzzling over where your bomb shelter is.  Are you one of those guys holding his finger over the button that launches thousands of nukes?

Naw, those guys are wusses

[sixty]

I'm bumping this old topic (and some peoples blood pressure) because I came around something interesting when browsing kbdmania:



Check this out. This guy in his topic compared the keys on his Korean Majestouch (white) vs the ones on his older Japanese Majestouch (white).

As our trained eyes will easily notice: The newer Korean version seems to be laser etched instead of printed.

Picture 1: Left - Korean Version, Right - Old Japanese Version
Picture 2: Left - Old Japanese Version, Right - New Korean Version

Pay detail to the "Sys Rq" and the Windows logo on the newer keys. I have no doubts of this being lasered. The original topic on KBDMania does not discuss the labeling type, just the general diffierence, but I'm fairly sure.

So what does this mean? Filco finally starting to laser their keys instead of using printing? I wonder if this only applies for the white version or if we will start seeing lasered keys on the black ones any time soon too.

Picture credit goes to chouchou from kbdmania.

[microsoft windows]

If only I had a camera that took non-blurry pictures, I'd show off all my double-shot keys!

[hotswank]

Don't expect your filco keycaps to look like new forever, if you are ok with worn appearing keycaps like I am, it is a non-issue.

Pictures taken from a Made in Taiwan Majestouch FKBN104M/EB S/N 09030020 after 7 months:

[bigpook]

what did you do to the N key?

[didjamatic]

Fingernail must hit that spot on the N key but it's unacceptable for a keyboard as expensive as Filcos.  The entire premise of getting a good mechanical keyboard is that it will last a long time.  This is like a car's paint peeling off at 3k miles.

Why build a board with 50M keystroke switches in it and 1M keystroke key caps?  

If my Filco becomes a Failco that fast I will be very upset.  Especially when you can get a quality Cherry made board with double/two shot keys and MX key switches for the same price or even less.

Filco should replace those keycaps

[bigpook]

I suppose. I have a filco tenkeyless and after 4 months or so the keys are getting shiny. I don't have anything like the wear you have on the N key. I don't mind the shiny keys though. But I do agree for the amount of money paid for a filco the keys should hold up better. I am glancing over at my model m's and the keys on those still look good. And I know that at least one of them was used quite a bit.

[didjamatic]

Filco should replace every set of inferior keycaps they have sold, or be forced to commit seppuku with a Model M.

[ch_123]

*sighs*

Here we go again...

[didjamatic]

Maybe I should read the whole thread.  Did they already agree to commit seppuku?

[itlnstln]

Don't read the whole thing.  We have all come to the consensus that Filco caps suck.  Try not to care about "teh shinee," and hope for better replacement sets in the future (preferably POM).  That's all you need to know.

[itlnstln]

Yeah, PBT or POM would be cool.
 
ItlnStln - you realize we might lose our Fanboy membership for our recent posts?

Oh noes!  All I can say is that I have been consistent, and if my membership is revoked, at least I still have my principles.

[alpslover]

Fingernail must hit that spot on the N key but it's unacceptable for a keyboard as expensive as Filcos.

the spot on the n key is not due to normal wear.  something struck it, and it was no finger.

This is like a car's paint peeling off at 3k miles.

a car's paint peeling off at 3k miles of normal driving is unacceptable, yes, but would you still say peeling paint is unacceptable if the car had been used as a target in an artillery range?

[hotswank]

the spot on the n key is not due to normal wear.  something struck it, and it was no finger.

I'm sorry but nothing struck it, fingers-crossed! finger-nail perhaps, yes.

Guess I'm just unlucky with the N key. It's very easy to remove the remainders of the N which indicates to me the 'paint' did not properly bond to the keycap to begin with.

I bought the Filco at ArmyGroup Online in Taiwan, sending it back and claim for warranty is a no-brainer :-(

[itlnstln]

I don't have any. Ask your GF.

Damn it.  That was you?

[ch_123]

As far as I'm concerned - if you're looking at the keycaps, you are doing it wrong...

[itlnstln]

As far as I'm concerned - if you're looking at the keycaps, you are doing it wrong...

There is the whole aesthetics thing, but yeah, that's why I went blank.  I have been doing it wrong for years.  Ripster taught me how, though.

[itlnstln]

Wow, that Topre cap looks terrible.  I know you're not even going to see it, but instead of an extra piece of molding crud, it looks like a chunk was taken out of it.

[majestouch]

Pictures taken from a Made in Taiwan Majestouch FKBN104M/EB S/N 09030020 after 7 months:

Here you have the same problem that, after a few PMs, the OP (of this 400 post thread) and I concluded the most likely scenario was fingernail abrasion of the keycap coating.

I'm putting my money on the case that hotswank, or whoever is using this board, plays games with ESDF and uses their left pinky on A, which would account for the coating wear right of center (you only have 1 tendon connecting your ring and pinky fingers, so they naturally pull together during movement). The OP had wear of the same appearance, but dead center on S, and had admitted to using WASD, in which case his middle finger fingernail contacted S in a perpendicular fashion as he moved between S and W (back and forward). Any key cap is going to get some abuse this way, but the coating on FILCOs presents a problem, I do not disagree.



Did someone key your keycap? This looks like abuse, or aggravation of a defective cap. No comment.

hotswank, I thank you for your photos, the coating on the keycaps has been a source of problems for several customers and these photos help in discussing alternative technologies with FILCO's parent.

I do, however, take issue with what I perceive to be a derisive tone in referring to your keyboard as "Made in Taiwan." The Western world has embraced Southeast Asian labor to the point of heavy dependency. Feel free to throw out 70% of all "things" you own, and to educate yourself to repulse everything with some second or third hand connection to Southeast Asian manufacturing, then come back here and let us know if you can still get by. In my experience, the manufacturing of consumer products in America and many European countries doesn't fare any better on the average, so you might as well put yourself down as well.