New Logitech "Gaming" Keyboard

[BigWopHH]

http://blog.logitech.com/2009/10/15/new-logitech-gaming-keyboard-g110/

If you look in the comments, it supports only 5-key rollover in the 'area around WASD'.

[o2dazone]

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[DreymaR]

It is my experience that neither sex nor typing should involve rubber domes. If you're doing it with strangers, it usually can't be helped but my loved ones don't use rubber!

[msiegel]

topre fans will argue that judiciously applied rubber can be both stimulating and relaxing

[Ulysses31]

Good old Logitech; leaders of innovation in the art of turd-polishing.  It looks quite nice and i'd like back-lit keys but not with their current rubber-dome technology.  I know Deck makes back-lit keyboards but as far as I know they don't have a UK variant.

[timw4mail]

Good old Logitech; leaders of innovation in the art of turd-polishing.  It looks quite nice and i'd like back-lit keys but not with their current rubber-dome technology.  I know Deck makes back-lit keyboards but as far as I know they don't have a UK variant.

Why are you guys so attached to that silly upside-down-L-shaped enter key?

[Rajagra]

Why are you guys so attached to that silly upside-down-L-shaped enter key?

Possibly it has more to do with the extra key we normally have. American's complain if the backslash is moved a tiny distance. How do you think we feel if we don't have a backslash key at all?
(That happens if we plug an ANSI board into a machine running the UK layout.)

It's such a silly difference, and so easy to fix:

[Ulysses31]

It's not silly really.  The layout of most keyboards is fairly arbitrary with the aim of slowing down the typist; there's little logic involved to begin with, so who's to say that one layout is sillier than another?  I'd speculate that the reason the US layout doesn't have an L-shaped key is for cost-cutting, since one would expect it to be cheaper to assemble a keyboard using fewer different molds.  Considering how cheap most keyboards are nowadays, this is probably less of a factor than it may have been.

Frankly, I don't want a UK layout because of the Enter key, but because of the different positions of other standard keys.  Yes, they could be remapped but even then certain keys would be in different positions.  I don't want to go through the hassle of re-training my fingers.

[AndrewZorn]

It's not silly really.  The layout of most keyboards is fairly arbitrary with the aim of slowing down the typist; there's little logic involved to begin with, so who's to say that one layout is sillier than another?  I'd speculate that the reason the US layout doesn't have an L-shaped key is for cost-cutting, since one would expect it to be cheaper to assemble a keyboard using fewer different molds.  Considering how cheap most keyboards are nowadays, this is probably less of a factor than it may have been.

Frankly, I don't want a UK layout because of the Enter key, but because of the different positions of other standard keys.  Yes, they could be remapped but even then certain keys would be in different positions.  I don't want to go through the hassle of re-training my fingers.

+



Your layout is sillier.

and with the Enter key, I think the ISO keyboard layout has improved on the old big J-shaped Enter.  There's no reason to have a key that big.

[itlnstln]

Very rare is the thread that stays on topic around here.  I actually forgot this thread was even about the new Logitech 'board.

[AndrewZorn]

LOL - I think BigWopHH posted this hoping to get some N-key hate from Geekhackers and instead gets ISO vs ANSI International ENTER key wars.

That HHKB2 is silliest.

Only one keyboard can be converted to US,  Int'l and HHKB2 layout with a little bit of elbow grease.

another desperate attempt that falls short of true perfection.

[ds26gte]

Not a gamer, so this is an honest question: Since it seems to be only about the four keys WASD, why do all the keys have to be the gaming kind?  Indeed, wouldn't a dedicated fourkey be a more efficient and pertinent solution to gaming needs than to have an entire keyboard pessimized for typing?

[itlnstln]

Not a gamer, so this is an honest question: Since it seems to be only about the four keys WASD, why do all the keys have to be the gaming kind? Indeed, wouldn't a dedicated fourkey be a more efficient and pertinent solution to gaming needs than to have an entire keyboard pessimized for typing?

This is why I used the Nostromo n52 among other reasons.  I have (more like had) a keyboard for typing and a dedicated controller for gaming.

[ch_123]

Yeah, I certainly think that the likes of Steelseries should come out with a G13-style device using Cherry Blacks.

[timw4mail]

Not a gamer, so this is an honest question: Since it seems to be only about the four keys WASD, why do all the keys have to be the gaming kind?  Indeed, wouldn't a dedicated fourkey be a more efficient and pertinent solution to gaming needs than to have an entire keyboard pessimized for typing?

Very rare is it to use only those four keys. Generally, the area around wasd is also used at the same time.

As far as I'm aware, there doesn't exist a mass-produced gaming keypad with mechanical switches.

[AndrewZorn]

i guess i dont feel like having to have a second device for a certain type of software really makes sense... especially when my keyboard is not 'crippled' in some regards just because i can use it well for one purpose.

especially when "games" is very broad.  WASD is for FPS.  a lot of games the keyboard is used quite a bit for chat/communication.  some games require quick strokes across the whole keyboard, not just a small cluster (RTS).

and then there has to be the whole buying standards vs price vs manufacturing arguments and decisions all over again.  mechanical vs membrane.  printed vs dyesub vs double-shot.  NKRO.  etc.

[itlnstln]

As far as I'm aware, there doesn't exist a mass-produced gaming keypad with mechanical switches.

No, but if you had a gaming keypad, there's always this.

[Rajagra]

Not a gamer, so this is an honest question: Since it seems to be only about the four keys WASD, why do all the keys have to be the gaming kind?

You need to do lots of things at once.
Moving diagonally = 2 direction keys
Crouch, speed up, fire, jump etc = lots of other keys you may need to press at the same time.

The bottom line is that a keyboard based on electrical-contact switches without true n-key rollover WILL go wrong with certain combinations of just 3 keys.

So any "gaming" keyboard that forces you to choose key bindings based on what doesn't fail - and you need to test this thoroughly to be sure - isn't really bringing much to the table in gaming terms. It's poorly though out design and shoddy marketing.

[itlnstln]

You need to do lots of things at once.
Moving diagonally = 2 direction keys
Crouch, speed up, fire, jump etc = lots of other keys you may need to press at the same time.
 
The bottom line is that a keyboard based on electrical-contact switches without true n-key rollover WILL go wrong with certain combinations of just 3 keys.
 
So any "gaming" keyboard that forces you to choose key bindings based on what doesn't fail - and you need to test this thoroughly to be sure - isn't really bringing much to the table in gaming terms. It's poorly though out design and shoddy marketing.

What does this have to do with different Enter keys?  I'm lost.

[itlnstln]

it fails.

That's all that needs to be said.

[AndrewZorn]

yeah but only a noob would use ARROW KEYS true gaymers use WASD, ALWAYS

[timw4mail]

yeah but only a noob would use ARROW KEYS true gaymers use WASD, ALWAYS

I guess you've never played Everyday shooter. It uses WASD and the arrow keys ;P

[AndrewZorn]

only on psp
but it was a joke

[bitflipper]

Most keyboards have a built in gaming pad - the keypad. Try using the mouse in your left hand and map your commands like this:

mouse - fine movement
button1 - fire
button2 - alt fire
scroll wheel - switch weapon

keypad
1 - strafe left
2 - move backwards
3 - strafe right
4 - turn left
5 - center view
6 - turn right
8 - move forwards
Enter - jump

unmapped: / * - + . 0 7 9

[alpslover]

The bottom line is that a keyboard based on electrical-contact switches without true n-key rollover WILL go wrong with certain combinations of just 3 keys.

So any "gaming" keyboard that forces you to choose key bindings based on what doesn't fail - and you need to test this thoroughly to be sure - isn't really bringing much to the table in gaming terms.

yep, i've always maintained that the advantage of n-key rollover isn't so much being able to press 60 keys down all at once and have them register (though of course it will work), but rather having the guarantee that no combination of keys will ever fail.

It's poorly though out design and shoddy marketing.

poor design, yes, but i'd say the marketing works pretty well if they're selling a lot of them.

[AndrewZorn]

Most keyboards have a built in gaming pad - the keypad. Try using the mouse in your left hand and map your commands like this:

mouse - fine movement
button1 - fire
button2 - alt fire
scroll wheel - switch weapon

keypad
1 - strafe left
2 - move backwards
3 - strafe right
4 - turn left
5 - center view
6 - turn right
8 - move forwards
Enter - jump

unmapped: / * - + . 0 7 9

i dont get it... why do this?

[Ulysses31]

The layout isn't sillier.  With the HHKB family there are obvious space limitations, in which case a smaller Enter key is preferable, but like women with silly little hand-bags that can't store anything useful inside, it's a niche item for people who type a lot and don't need a standard layout (by which I mean F-keys and cursors etc in the expected places).  And no, I don't think pressing various modifier keys to get the functions I want, to be an advantage.  The fact is, since as I said the layout was never defined with efficiency in mind to begin with, that if you had been raised on a UK layout you'd think the US layout was just as silly.  Personally I think they're both not optimal, but I can still type nice and quickly on it and I don't see why I should have to throw away years of informal training to learn a different layout just because manufacturers are too short-sighted to produce regional variations of hardware.

I at least gave a few reasons why the layout was no "sillier" than the US one, but rationality has usually played second-fiddle to arrogance in most forums i've seen.

[bitflipper]

i guess i dont feel like having to have a second device for a certain type of software really makes sense... especially when my keyboard is not 'crippled' in some regards just because i can use it well for one purpose.

especially when "games" is very broad.  WASD is for FPS.  a lot of games the keyboard is used quite a bit for chat/communication.  some games require quick strokes across the whole keyboard, not just a small cluster (RTS).

and then there has to be the whole buying standards vs price vs manufacturing arguments and decisions all over again.  mechanical vs membrane.  printed vs dyesub vs double-shot.  NKRO.  etc.

Well when referring to "gamers" or "gaming keyboard" or "gaming rig", the assumption for the most part (not always) is FPS because they have the most extreme requirements. Like high end video cards and NKRO on a keyboard. Which non-FPS games have better gameplay with high end hardware? Starcraft? WoW? Scrabulous? Texas Holdem'?

I fail to see the advantage of purchasing a special device for RTS or other non-FPS.

i dont get it... why do this?

Likewise for FPS. IMHO, when playing FPS, the keypad on your favorite mechanical keyboard is superior to purchasing a special gaming keyboard or a device like Nostromo. Maybe a high resolution/dpi mouse if your everyday mouse doesn't do the job.

[AndrewZorn]

because the point of making it an ISO standard is to try to get everyone to use it
when your enter key takes up the space of TWO keys, and you don't need a huge landing pad for your pinky, i dont think there is any reason for it.
just antiquated regional things... i mean, both countries speak the same language.  small differences like the $ exist, yes.  but that enter key is HUGE.  the ISO enter key is big enough to make it impossible to miss, but small enough to grant you space for an extra key or two.

i live in the US, but admit the japanese spacebar setup is a good idea.  that's a little smaller than i would be used to, but really, the US spacebar being 5" long when my thumbs are 2" apart it needless.

i wont even start on the merits of the HHKB


bitflipper, i am saying why change your mousing hand, use an ambidextrous mouse (if you have one) etc all just to do... what?  i dont get the advantage the numpad has.

and yes, the physical dexterity of starcraft is quite high.
the fact that WASD started on a keyboard should suggest a proper keyboard is good enough.  the only thing i see that the gaymer pads offer is like a SECOND scrollwheel and whatnot... for reasons i do not understand.

a good keyboard can be used for typing and gaming... and seeing as how every PC game is designed to work on an ISO/ANSI keyboard should suggest that it has plenty of keys to do every action necessary in the game.

[Ulysses31]

In that case you could argue against the broader keys being so large, such as the Backslash on the US layout.  It's as wide as the Tab key, whereas ours is the width of a single key.  No, it isn't any harder to hit, and I doubt that most people use it frequently, so it doesn't need that much emphasis.  If we're going to pick fault with keys taking up too much space, it should be all or nothing, not just a few that you don't happen to like at the time.

[AndrewZorn]

i guess im not going to get anywhere on this one

i use backspace quite a bit, myself

[AndrewZorn]

[msiegel]

wow, that was quite an entrance

[Ulysses31]

I use the Backspace a lot myself too, strangely enough.  I was talking about the Backslash.  LOL yes, world peace under an American banner.  JIS and DIN and every other standard is irrelevant.  We Brits are a funny bunch; we also drive on the wrong side of the road.  So do a lot of other countries that used to be in our empire and even some that aren't.  There are some vague historical reasons for this but they don't have much relevance these days.  We're all quite mad and yet by some miracle still manage to operate motor vehicles quite well (OK, maybe not France or Italy if what i've heard is true).  These sorts of differences which you seem to find so abhorrent don't impede us in any way.  Who are you to decide how much of a "landing zone" is needed for a key, or that "there's no need for it"?  Human beings don't come off a production line in just one size, and I doubt you've surveyed millions of human beings to discover what the ideal "pinkie landing zone" is for various keys.  Coupled with that famed human attribute of adaptability and the size of the Enter key becomes moot.

[msiegel]

I use the Backspace a lot myself too, strangely enough.  I was talking about the Backslash.  LOL yes, world peace under an American banner.  JIS and DIN and every other standard is irrelevant.  We Brits are a funny bunch; we also drive on the wrong side of the road.  So do a lot of other countries that used to be in our empire and even some that aren't.  There are some vague historical reasons for this but they don't have much relevance these days.  We're all quite mad and yet by some miracle still manage to operate motor vehicles quite well (OK, maybe not France or Italy if what i've heard is true).  These sorts of differences which you seem to find so abhorrent don't impede us in any way.  Who are you to decide how much of a "landing zone" is needed for a key, or that "there's no need for it"?  Human beings don't come off a production line in just one size, and I doubt you've surveyed millions of human beings to discover what the ideal "pinkie landing zone" is for various keys.  Coupled with that famed human attribute of adaptability and the size of the Enter key becomes moot.

(looks like AndrewZorn used up your newline supply

[Ulysses31]

He did.  Even with my big ugly Enter key I can never seem to hit it

[AndrewZorn]

you dont get what i am saying

lets for a minute throw aside my preference for enter keys
and your european elitism

the whole thing started with me thinking it was strange that two countries that speak the same language need two differently-setup keyboards
and one is far more popular
and you are waiting for the other
i thought it was a bit much
that is all

EDIT and my shift key must not be big enough
except when i type EDIT

[ch_123]

As someone who uses both US and Euro layouts on a regular basis, I can assure y'all that there's little advantage of one over the other. Although I do have a slight preference for the US one.

[Ulysses31]

One is far more popular because there are more of you than us.  The smaller nations aren't as economically powerful so maybe it's easier for them to go with the flow.  I don't know who decided we should have that bloody big key, but you'd think that as the second most populous natively-English speaking nation we'd have some more sway with what manufacturers produce.

[timw4mail]

One is far more popular because there are more of you than us.  The smaller nations aren't as economically powerful so maybe it's easier for them to go with the flow.  I don't know who decided we should have that bloody big key, but you'd think that as the second most populous natively-English speaking nation we'd have some more sway with what manufacturers produce.

I don't get why we're the only ones with the straight enter key...

On the other hand, we could all complain about the AT-pre-model-M layout that is the worst of both worlds...

[D-EJ915]

Is there really a point to the UK layout?

[Kraicheck]

When it comes to the enter key, one layout isn't better than the other.
Both use too much space.
Why does the enter key have to be bigger than the other keys?
The ISO layout shows that you can hit the enter key when it's only one key thick.
The ANSI layout shows that you can hit the enter key when it's only one key high.
People, like me, going from the ISO layout to the ANSI layout, hit the enter key at the intersection of the two shapes.

For the other layout difference, meaning the size of the left shift, ISO is obviously better.
There's no need to make the left shift that wide in the ANSI layout.
Following ISO only puts it as far from your left pinky as the right shift is from the right pinky.

I also never see people complain about the obvious imbalance between the amount of keys the right pinky has to hit in comparison to the left pinky.
Because of the bigger left shift this shows the most on the ANSI layout.
Without the bottom row: left: 9 right: 12
Hell, why does the weak pinky have to hit more keys than the index finger?

[Rajagra]

Is there really a point to the UK layout?

Since it is the US that changed from the old standard, the correct question is:

Is there really a point to the US layout?

The old "universal" XT layout:


Note:
Extra key to left of Z;
Vertical Enter key;
Three keys between L and Enter.

So who was the bright spark who decided to make a change and only do it in the US?

[AndrewZorn]

i think that the horizontal enter/shift seem more suited for reaching with pinkies
there are only 3 rows i can easily reach with my pinkies... one is the same row it is already on.  so rows dont really need extra help.  columns, and how far to reach, is the hard part.

[AndrewZorn]

that is also my favorite change
makes it impossible to enjoy my filco without autohotkey
which creates problems

[Rajagra]

No vertical enter.  Somebody send me a key and I'll see if I like it.

I don't think there is any advantage tbh. I'd be happy with a normal-key-sized Enter key, ideally right next to the quotes key, freeing up space for another key to the right of it (bit like on your keyboard.)

The Enter key is not as 'special' as it used to be, I don't think it deserves so much space nowadays.

[timw4mail]

I don't think there is any advantage tbh. I'd be happy with a normal-key-sized Enter key, ideally right next to the quotes key, freeing up space for another key to the right of it (bit like on your keyboard.)

The Enter key is not as 'special' as it used to be, I don't think it deserves so much space nowadays.

I don't know what you think makes it less special, with growing interest into Linux and other free Operating Systems, it is still a very important key.

[Rajagra]

I don't know what you think makes it less special, with growing interest into Linux and other free Operating Systems, it is still a very important key.

I think Linux users are savvy enough to find the Enter key even if it were small. The only reason the key is so big is to scream its presence to casual computer users. "Hey, here's a really big key, you're going to need this at some point."

Computer use simply doesn't revolve around the Enter key like it used to. In web browsing especially I now use Tab far more often than Enter. Pressing Enter is too much of a gamble, I never know if it will move to another field or perform an action that quits the page before I'm done.

[itlnstln]

World peace dude.
 
 
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Darth Vader holding Luke's hand holding the keyboard is hilarious.
 
I just got fired, ripster, are you happy now?

[itlnstln]

I'm not a SW geek, that's for sure.  I haven't seen any of them since the first three when I was a kid.