Is there any way to make a 60% buckling spring board?

[tofgerl]

I have a Model M, and I love the keys, but I hate the size. More than that, I can't use it because of the size. Obviously I can't just chop of the top and right side and expect it to work, but would it be possible to first replace the case, and then possibly replace the PCB, keeping just the parts of the keyboard that would still work? But which parts would still work, apart from the springs and keys, that is...

[zars15]

I'd say it's possible, but definitely not easy. We're talking about making custom keyboard, without PCB, just plate mounted and hand wired with custom conroller. Plus you'd need to sacrifice your Model M to harvest the switches.

Though I haven't seen model m up close, so I am not sure how easy it's to serperate switch from board. Whether it's possible or not depends on that.

[Hypersphere]

Yes, there are threads on this. It is possible. Google 60% Model M and you should find some of the threads.

[vivalarevolución]

I would just type that into google and find thread on it.  Probably easier than actually trying to search this website.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=60%25+model+m

[tofgerl]

Yeah, I made the mistake of actually using the forum search engine.

Thanks, guys, I have some reading to do.

[0100010]

What about a 60% Model F?

http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/brand-new-f62-kishsaver-f77-industrial-model-f-s-made-this-year-t11046.html

[tofgerl]

What about a 60% Model F?

http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/brand-new-f62-kishsaver-f77-industrial-model-f-s-made-this-year-t11046.html

Yeah, bears watching... Although the case is still enormous. It's like trying to park a cadillac in a motorcycle spot :|

[rowdy]

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73363.0

[njbair]

I am currently halfway done with a mod to turn a Unicomp PC-122 into a semi-unsaver board, with only the alpha cluster and the top and left function key banks. I had to cut the barrel plate and metal backing plate with a hacksaw and dremel. I sliced the case apart after carefully planning my cuts to make sure I'd be able to reassemble the case using ABS glue. So far, so good.

As for the membrane sheets, I had to cut them as well, so I'm using conductive copper tape and magnet wire to complete the matrix circuits and run them back to the controller board. That's where I'm stuck right now, just because it's very time-consuming to cut the little slivers of copper tape.

Actually, I should probably take more photos and log this build.

[0100010]

Here are some older threads in the same vein as what you are wanting to build :

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40006.0

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=29483.0

[Oobly]

I did my build similar to njbair, cut down a 122-key terminal Model M and used copper tape and magnet wire to hook it to a Teensy. Got it functional, but still haven't made a case for it yet...

[tofgerl]

See that's, what I'm talking about. Of course I would prefer to lift parts from the Model M instead of just cutting parts away from the Model M, but I suspect in the end the original keyboard will not survive... :|

[njbair]

See that's, what I'm talking about. Of course I would prefer to lift parts from the Model M instead of just cutting parts away from the Model M, but I suspect in the end the original keyboard will not survive... :|

No way it can survive. Your best bet is to buy a terminal board. They are usually a bit cheaper than PS/2, and since you have to gut the thing and remap the matrix to something like a Teensy, the original interface doesn't matter.

[tofgerl]

Not in its current form, but if I could put say MX switches and a PCB in the frame, that would be something.

[fishcola]

I'm not an expert, but vintage IBM kbs and Cherrys are very different... A "custom pcb" isn't a magical fix.

cherry switches are self-contained. so for a custom cherry board, you really find a custom pcb, a compatible plate, and a compatible case (this is more google-fu/search-fu).
IBM switches require rethinking of slider column arrays, pcb, membrane arrays, and a custom case, and then some (since I'm no expert). It takes a lot more work to get those things done in short ATM (though correct me if I'm wrong).

Why can't you put one car manufacturer's engine in another? That's the kind of question you're asking

edit: didn't mean to rant, i know it takes work to make those custom cherry pcbs and plates, but yeah, those are still my two cents.

[CPTBadAss]

Model Ms don't use a PCB. They've only got a membrane. So you either have to wire it like Oobly did it or fold and mod the membrane. Or make a new one. Model Fs have a PCB.

[tofgerl]

Oh, I know, I just wanted a custom keyboard with Buckling Spring, and using a custom PCB if far easier than using the existing tech in the Model M. That way, in my mind, I would just "move the mechanics over", but I have no idea how...

[Oobly]

Oh, I know, I just wanted a custom keyboard with Buckling Spring, and using a custom PCB if far easier than using the existing tech in the Model M. That way, in my mind, I would just "move the mechanics over", but I have no idea how...

The model M (and model F) have a curved plate, so you'd have to use a thin, flexible PCB.. And then what do you use to detect the hammer movements? It's just not practical.

You could possibly make a flexible PCB with capacitive sensing pads and use it with a cut down Model F, but it's beyond the skill of most keyboard enthusiasts to design and build such a board. Not easy, but possible.

[0100010]

Yup.  Like Oobly says, a PCB buckling spring is a Model F.  Cheapest route to get a 60% Model F is Ellipse's custom project.

What about a 60% Model F?

http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/brand-new-f62-kishsaver-f77-industrial-model-f-s-made-this-year-t11046.html

[CPTBadAss]

Well...don't be so hasty. wcass has made a....Model M with a PCB thingy? We were graced with it's presense at Keycon Chicago this year.

Here's a thread talking about making custom M membranes.

And here's Kurplop's custom BS thread.

[tofgerl]

It's going to take me a loooong time to get used to this forums use of the initialism BS...

[Findecanor]

I wonder how feasible it would be to modify a Model M hammer to become capacitative. Stick aluminium tape on the underside ...

[njbair]

Oh, I know, I just wanted a custom keyboard with Buckling Spring, and using a custom PCB if far easier than using the existing tech in the Model M. That way, in my mind, I would just "move the mechanics over", but I have no idea how...

The model M (and model F) have a curved plate, so you'd have to use a thin, flexible PCB.. And then what do you use to detect the hammer movements? It's just not practical.

You could possibly make a flexible PCB with capacitive sensing pads and use it with a cut down Model F, but it's beyond the skill of most keyboard enthusiasts to design and build such a board. Not easy, but possible.

You wouldn't need a curved PCB. Just make PCB "strips," one for each row, and fasten them directly to the barrel plate.

As for conductivity, some copper tape on the underside of each hammer, and make the PCB with conductive pads separated by a gap, so when the hammer comes down it bridges the gap. Rough PCB sketch:

[neverused]

Will that really result in a capacitive switch or just allow for continuity at that junction?

[njbair]

Will that really result in a capacitive switch or just allow for continuity at that junction?

Not capacitive, just simple momentary switching, which is all you really need. If you go with a capacitive circuit you'd also have to develop your own custom controller since I don't think anyone is making a capacitive matrix controller these days.

[neverused]

I think an xwhatsit controller would make slow for that sensing ability.

[Oobly]

Oh, I know, I just wanted a custom keyboard with Buckling Spring, and using a custom PCB if far easier than using the existing tech in the Model M. That way, in my mind, I would just "move the mechanics over", but I have no idea how...

The model M (and model F) have a curved plate, so you'd have to use a thin, flexible PCB.. And then what do you use to detect the hammer movements? It's just not practical.

You could possibly make a flexible PCB with capacitive sensing pads and use it with a cut down Model F, but it's beyond the skill of most keyboard enthusiasts to design and build such a board. Not easy, but possible.

You wouldn't need a curved PCB. Just make PCB "strips," one for each row, and fasten them directly to the barrel plate.

As for conductivity, some copper tape on the underside of each hammer, and make the PCB with conductive pads separated by a gap, so when the hammer comes down it bridges the gap. Rough PCB sketch:

(Attachment Link)

It has to be a very thin PCB to allow the stud holes to still line up, AND you need holes for the bumps on the bottom of Model M hammers AND you need to check that the momentary contact duration is long enough for the matrix scan cycle to read accurately AND you may get issues with a non-conductive copper oxide or cupric oxide buildup over time. I'd rather go with capacitive sensing with a customised version of an xwhatsit controller and coat the copper areas with something to prevent oxidation.

Model F barrels and hammers are also easier to make a new plate / board for, no need for holes, no need for coating hammers, can make it flat, etc.

[Snowdog993]

I just thought I would make mention of another project that Phosphorglow may undertake in the future.  How near or far is up to him....

Edit: Don't get too excited yet....

[tofgerl]

You wouldn't need a curved PCB. Just make PCB "strips," one for each row, and fasten them directly to the barrel plate.

As for conductivity, some copper tape on the underside of each hammer, and make the PCB with conductive pads separated by a gap, so when the hammer comes down it bridges the gap. Rough PCB sketch:

Interesting... This might not be as impossible as I thought... I need to sketch some stuff out, but I won't have time until the weekend...

If I can make the barrels 3d-printable without them being too brittle, this might turn out to be feasible. I just hope I won't be shut down by Unicomp lawyers... After all, I don't want to create a keyboard, I just want to change a keyboard... A lot...

[xiphmont]

Oh, I know, I just wanted a custom keyboard with Buckling Spring, and using a custom PCB if far easier than using the existing tech in the Model M. That way, in my mind, I would just "move the mechanics over", but I have no idea how...

The model M (and model F) have a curved plate, so you'd have to use a thin, flexible PCB.. And then what do you use to detect the hammer movements? It's just not practical.

You could possibly make a flexible PCB with capacitive sensing pads and use it with a cut down Model F, but it's beyond the skill of most keyboard enthusiasts to design and build such a board. Not easy, but possible.

You wouldn't need a curved PCB. Just make PCB "strips," one for each row, and fasten them directly to the barrel plate.

As for conductivity, some copper tape on the underside of each hammer, and make the PCB with conductive pads separated by a gap, so when the hammer comes down it bridges the gap. Rough PCB sketch:

(Attachment Link)

You don't need any kind of special PCB.  The PCB in the F is just thin, regular flat FR4 that's been bent into a curve when mounted.  Any ol cheapy PCB supply place can go down to .015", most will go even thinner.
You can then mostly reuse the upper two mylar layers just replacing the lower layer.  That is what I was originally planning to do for model M NKRO mod kits, but if I'm going that far, I might as well just make M->F conversion backplanes.  Ellipse manufacturing tons of new F hammers makes that decision even easier :-)

[Ellipse]

Also you can just buy the F62 insides from my project if you want to make your own custom case that is smaller/lighter than the original.  Then you will have a brand new 60% buckling spring keyboard!  I made some PCBs that allow you to install the controller beneath the inner assembly using header pins, thanks to a great suggestion by the PCB designer (a fellow forum member!), so you can make a smaller case than the original if you'd like. 

[neverused]

  [ quote author=Oobly link=topic=74906.msg1853028#msg1853028 date=1441117955]
I did my build similar to njbair, cut down a 122-key terminal Model M and used copper tape and magnet wire to hook it to a Teensy. Got it functional, but still haven't made a case for it yet...

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Do you happen to have any more pics of documentation? Is your code/wiring available to look at?  Thanks!

[snarfarlarkus]

What about a 60% beam spring? Now thats end game.