Author Topic: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)  (Read 16888 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3643
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #50 on: Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:22:26 »



nubbinator wrote:
> but those shift keys are awful


Try it and see! It’s actually extremely nice. (In comparison to ISO/ANSI, which is admittedly a very low bar.)

> and any chained Ctrl+whatever command would be pretty clunky to do.

Also really nice! Much easier than control keys in the corners of the board, and about the same as a board with a control key to the left of the A key. This layout could also work pretty well with shift and control swapped. But using a thumb shift takes a bit more practice than using a 1u-next-to-pinky-home-position shift.

Another nice possibility is to make shifts index-finger keys, replacing e.g. G and H, but then you need a different letter layout, which again has a steeper learning curve.

The final reasonable possibility, as I alluded to upthread, is to use something similar to a standard ISO layout, but shift all the right-hand letter keys over one key to the right, and rotate some other keys into the middle column that opens up. This makes the right shift and ISO enter key no longer impossible to reach, and helps with reaching backslash and backspace. Such a layout still isn’t great, but somewhat better than standard ISO/ANSI.

> One of my more commonly used commands (and common for any IT professional) is Ctrl+Shift+Esc.  I do not see a comfortable way to hit that with that board.

Yep, you’d use the thumb + ring finger + pinky, or thumb + middle finger + ring finger, or either thumb + right pinky + left pinky if you prefer. All three ways are super duper easy to press, dramatically easier than control + shift + escape on a standard keyboard.

That’s a remarkably stupid shortcut though. I’d recommend just remapping to something more convenient.

Also, nubbs: I don’t plan to pay you, don’t worry, and you can keep using whatever crazy layout you want, no skin off my back.

Again, the primary criterion here was to avoid shaking things up too much, so most keys were left alone, and only the worst offenders were moved (backspace, both shifts, escape, control, backslash, f keys, arrows), with some other keys shifted around to accommodate those changes. This is clearly still not close to optimal.

For someone looking to have a more comfortable overall experience, I’d recommend something split, with a column stagger and a lot of extra thumb keys, along the lines of:

(This comparison has some duplicated blue outlines of the center columns, to better show how the hands line up on it in comparison to a standard board. You can see how much of the terrible reaching from an ANSI layout is avoided, but it has fewer keys overall so requires a custom layered layout.)
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:44:24 by jacobolus »

Offline PunksDead

  • hspernks
  • Posts: 783
  • Location: USA
  • keyboard poser
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #51 on: Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:22:51 »
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.

Makes me feel like a king

..who...are...you? Tell Hipster we said hi.



I have been converted... Or maybe the buttery smoothness of vintage clears are blocking my judgement.

In all seriousness i just like keyboards, layouts don't matter much to me. Swapping out a new keyboard every week keeps the mind fresh. When we talk feels though... You need topre to the keyboard gods
don't come to my funeral, there wont be one

Offline digi

  • elite af tbh
  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 2789
  • keyboard game on fleek
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #52 on: Fri, 02 October 2015, 21:02:12 »
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.

Makes me feel like a king

..who...are...you? Tell Hipster we said hi.

Show Image


I have been converted... Or maybe the buttery smoothness of vintage clears are blocking my judgement.

In all seriousness i just like keyboards, layouts don't matter much to me. Swapping out a new keyboard every week keeps the mind fresh. When we talk feels though... You need topre to the keyboard gods

I can't hate on the vintage clears, I'm assuming they're lighter than reg clears which is why I like ergo-clears so much...(that's if I feel like being a Cherry n00b for a bit ofc). Send me that Night Owl MKII, mkay? thx

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7737
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #53 on: Fri, 02 October 2015, 21:15:57 »
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.

Makes me feel like a king

..who...are...you? Tell Hipster we said hi.

Show Image


I have been converted... Or maybe the buttery smoothness of vintage clears are blocking my judgement.

In all seriousness i just like keyboards, layouts don't matter much to me. Swapping out a new keyboard every week keeps the mind fresh. When we talk feels though... You need topre to the keyboard gods

Install regular shifts on this baby and she will rock, that double \| key just look out of place in this otherwise super nice board.

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3643
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #54 on: Sat, 03 October 2015, 00:08:08 »
Show Image

I have been converted... [...]
Install regular shifts on this baby and she will rock, that double \| key just look out of place in this otherwise super nice board.

Just rearrange until it looks like:


And then you end up with something better than either ANSI or ISO. (Still not great, but not too bad for a rectangular brick shape.)

Offline jd29

  • Posts: 108
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #55 on: Sat, 03 October 2015, 00:08:59 »
ISO (but with a full-size left shift key) is okay... but you need to remap the keys in software: move all the right-hand letters one key to the right, and cycle the symbols thus displaced into the middle column (or adjust to match your own preferences).

I do that anyway. It puts your hands further apart and gives you easier access to the rightmost column of keys, and makes it much easier to use the right bottom row keys with your thumb if you have a 7u spacebar. The regular QWERTY layout feels very cramped to me now.

Just rearrange until it looks like:
Show Image


Edit: Ha, what are the odds of that? That's exactly what I was talking about, except I didn't rearrange keys between rows.
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 October 2015, 00:11:09 by jd29 »

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7737
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #56 on: Sat, 03 October 2015, 00:16:27 »
Show Image

I have been converted... [...]
Install regular shifts on this baby and she will rock, that double \| key just look out of place in this otherwise super nice board.

Just rearrange until it looks like:
Show Image


And then you end up with something better than either ANSI or ISO. (Still not great, but not too bad for a rectangular brick shape.)

That is what I called ANSO; however, after I try the split right shift I returned back to the full size one, that by the way, it may take most of standard ANSI sets available.

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3643
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #57 on: Sat, 03 October 2015, 02:05:30 »
That is what I called ANSO;
Look closely: The key part is moving all the letters on the right hand one key to the right. Otherwise it’s worse than ANSI.
(The precise details of how to arrange the new middle column are down to personal preference.)

The same idea also works pretty well on Apple Japanese laptop keyboards (I sadly have a US layout), which have extra thumb keys to play with. Since the Japanese right shift is by default even further away than the ISO left shift, you can even move the right hand over by two columns, and have two extra middle columns of index finger keys. Even comes with the control key in the correct place. Physical layout like:


Logical layout like: http://pastie.org/10457620 (stick that into http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/)
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 October 2015, 02:31:38 by jacobolus »

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7737
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #58 on: Sat, 03 October 2015, 22:08:04 »
That is what I called ANSO;
Look closely: The key part is moving all the letters on the right hand one key to the right. Otherwise it’s worse than ANSI.
(The precise details of how to arrange the new middle column are down to personal preference.)

The same idea also works pretty well on Apple Japanese laptop keyboards (I sadly have a US layout), which have extra thumb keys to play with. Since the Japanese right shift is by default even further away than the ISO left shift, you can even move the right hand over by two columns, and have two extra middle columns of index finger keys. Even comes with the control key in the correct place. Physical layout like:
Show Image


Logical layout like: http://pastie.org/10457620 (stick that into http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/)
Show Image


Well, my keyboard works very well for me, actually. I understand your idea, but I think it should be tested to probe it may improve over the standard alpha arrangement. I think, you may have a learning curve to fight your muscle memory, before to get accustomed to it.

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3643
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #59 on: Sat, 03 October 2015, 23:03:33 »
Well, my keyboard works very well for me, actually. I understand your idea, but I think it should be tested to probe it may improve over the standard alpha arrangement. I think, you may have a learning curve to fight your muscle memory, before to get accustomed to it.
I’ve tested a bit, though not too extensively. (On an external Apple Japanese layout keyboard which I picked up used for cheap; my Apple laptop as I said unfortunately has an ANSI keyboard.) Works pretty well.

The main purpose (w/r/t the Apple Japanese layout) would be to get a somewhat increased hand separation and more reachable keys out of a built-in laptop keyboard, where there’s no easy way to radically change the hardware.

If you can pick your own hardware, then it’s better to just build a radically non-standard layout from scratch.

Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #60 on: Sun, 04 October 2015, 05:05:36 »
Also, see DreymaR's Wide mod over at the Colemak forum.

Offline asgeirtj

  • Posts: 518
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #61 on: Sun, 04 October 2015, 06:39:59 »
Well I grew up with ISO and used to think that ISO is the master race.

When trying ANSI I thought these things were superior:
the enter key, there's no reason to have it so big as in ISO and with the ANSI enter key it's closer to the home row so it's easier to press.  I've also come to think that's more pretty, potentially because I think efficiency is beautiful, but more likely because the enter is not as much out of place and awkward looking.

the left shift key: it's bigger but that's not a good thing for me functionally, I'm used to pressing the little shift so I put my pinky on the outermost portion of the key anyway (doesn't everyone do that? makes sense according to orientation of the hand when typing on the board, when I have 1,75 right ala 75% I think it's horrible because I always need to reorient my pinky since it automatically goes to the outermost part of key).  I miss the "great than less than" key next to the left shift but one can bind those to new keys (I need to bind them since I have Icelandic keyboard layout which relies on that key for greater/less symbols).  However the bigger shift is more aesthetically pleasing, small mods are ugly.

So now I think ANSI is better than ISO. 
Leopold FC900 w/ 67g Purple Zealios - Silver Duck Octagon w/ 62 Purple Zealios

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7737
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #62 on: Sun, 04 October 2015, 08:35:10 »
Well I grew up with ISO and used to think that ISO is the master race.

When trying ANSI I thought these things were superior:
the enter key, there's no reason to have it so big as in ISO and with the ANSI enter key it's closer to the home row so it's easier to press.  I've also come to think that's more pretty, potentially because I think efficiency is beautiful, but more likely because the enter is not as much out of place and awkward looking.

the left shift key: it's bigger but that's not a good thing for me functionally, I'm used to pressing the little shift so I put my pinky on the outermost portion of the key anyway (doesn't everyone do that? makes sense according to orientation of the hand when typing on the board, when I have 1,75 right ala 75% I think it's horrible because I always need to reorient my pinky since it automatically goes to the outermost part of key).  I miss the "great than less than" key next to the left shift but one can bind those to new keys (I need to bind them since I have Icelandic keyboard layout which relies on that key for greater/less symbols).  However the bigger shift is more aesthetically pleasing, small mods are ugly.

So now I think ANSI is better than ISO.

Thank you for the nice explanation. I also concur that small modifiers are not that nice looking. While I write in English and Spanish, the ANSI layout makes more sense to me, as you described your own experience. However I found the ISO enter size and shape a better differentiaor as the "carriage return" of our boards. If you remember in type writers it was a horizontal leveler, while the alphas were vertical ones, the ISO enter is similar in the sense that has a different orientation, being that a nice retro-styling characteristics that the ANSI layout has lost. Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me. 

Offline asgeirtj

  • Posts: 518
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #63 on: Sun, 04 October 2015, 13:08:28 »
Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me.

Actually I like it better since I can rebind it to backspace and have a closer to reach backspace :)  (\ is actually alt+- in icelandic layout and i never use |).
Leopold FC900 w/ 67g Purple Zealios - Silver Duck Octagon w/ 62 Purple Zealios

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7737
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #64 on: Sun, 04 October 2015, 13:10:37 »
Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me.

Actually I like it better since I can rebind it to backspace and have a closer to reach backspace :)  (\ is actually alt+- in icelandic layout and i never use |).

Good for you. However must set will have the \| legend, that is actually part of the alphas, and not a mod. Well, I know I am being picky.

Offline asgeirtj

  • Posts: 518
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #65 on: Sun, 04 October 2015, 13:17:11 »
Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me.

Actually I like it better since I can rebind it to backspace and have a closer to reach backspace :)  (\ is actually alt+- in icelandic layout and i never use |).

Good for you. However must set will have the \| legend, that is actually part of the alphas, and not a mod. Well, I know I am being picky.

I'm not sure if I understand this sentence :)
Leopold FC900 w/ 67g Purple Zealios - Silver Duck Octagon w/ 62 Purple Zealios

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7737
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #66 on: Sun, 04 October 2015, 13:22:38 »
Also, the big \| key in ISO just do not make sense to me.

Actually I like it better since I can rebind it to backspace and have a closer to reach backspace :)  (\ is actually alt+- in icelandic layout and i never use |).

Good for you. However must set will have the \| legend, that is actually part of the alphas, and not a mod. Well, I know I am being picky.

I'm not sure if I understand this sentence :)

Neither do I, LOL. Sorry, I wrote it without care.

Offline superbia

  • Posts: 130
  • Location: Republique de Croatie
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #67 on: Wed, 07 October 2015, 12:53:08 »
Comparing ansi to iso is pointless (they're both bad/old)...


#1 qwerty    and    #2 angled keys are drawn from 1700's from these


#1  it was invented to make people type slower
edit: It was laid out the way it is to prevent common digraph hammers being next to each other, since the hammers were gravity-returned and adjacent ones would jam if pressed too quickly after each other. It's the character pairs, not the speed that determined the layout.

#2   because the technical implementation (those metal rods under the keys)
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 October 2015, 14:52:36 by superbia »
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #68 on: Wed, 07 October 2015, 14:49:20 »
Comparing ansi to iso is pointless (they're both bad/old)...


#1 qwerty    and    #2 angled keys are drawn from 1700's from these
Show Image


#1   it was invented to make people type slower (less errors, and because there wasnt a tool to delete a typo)
#2   because the technical implementation (those metal rods under the keys)

#1 is incorrect. It was laid out the way it is to prevent common digraph hammers being next to each other, since the hammers were gravity-returned and adjacent ones would jam if pressed too quickly after each other. It's the character pairs, not the speed that determined the layout.

Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #69 on: Wed, 07 October 2015, 14:49:56 »
#1 qwerty    and    #2 angled keys are drawn from 1700's from these
Show Image


#1   it was invented to make people type slower (less errors, and because there wasnt a tool to delete a typo)
Eh, nope.

Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.
Actually, the improved designs were patented posthumously, and the Sholes/Remington design became an industrial standard later too.
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 October 2015, 14:53:02 by davkol »

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #70 on: Thu, 08 October 2015, 01:47:41 »
...

Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.
Actually, the improved designs were patented posthumously, and the Sholes/Remington design became an industrial standard later too.

Showing he created improved layouts to match the improved mechanisms. The mechanism improvements were adopted by Remington, but not that character layouts and we got stuck with QWERTY when they standardised it across brands due to the popularity of the Remington machines.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7737
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #71 on: Thu, 08 October 2015, 07:19:33 »
Beyond personal preferences, there is a fact related with ISO and ANSI profiles that makes a huge difference, it is that the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. JTK, for example, does not offer support for ISO yet; most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO either. Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO. That alone is a good reason to go for ANSI, instead of ISO.

Offline Fire Brand

  • Keeper of Rainbows
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 2433
  • Location: West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
  • BISCUITS!
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #72 on: Thu, 08 October 2015, 07:37:20 »
Beyond personal preferences, there is a fact related with ISO and ANSI profiles that makes a huge difference, it is that the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. JTK, for example, does not offer support for ISO yet; most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO either. Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO. That alone is a good reason to go for ANSI, instead of ISO.
the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. : Correct its a pain to find some of the stranger keys in ISO

most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO: Incorrect most typically do support ISO with a addon kit

Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO: Some old cherry sets don't include support for many layouts including ANSI so kinda a null point

Just trying to even it out, to be fair its mainly for what you grew up with, personally I don't care much for ISO or ANSI keyboards a keyboard and types but I have to say I don't like the long left shift and # key on ANSI I just find it silly the placement, again personally I would say go ANSI just to save yourself trouble getting keysets THAT alone is worth going ANSI over ISO
My Youtube Channel ~
More
Keyboards owned
More
Poker II - MX Black, Poker II ISO - MX Blue :c QFR ISO - MX Black, HHKB Pro 2 Black, VA68M - Gat Blacks w/68g Gold springs
My classified thread :3
More

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7737
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #73 on: Thu, 08 October 2015, 07:40:01 »
Most SP GBs, since the first introduced Skull Sq. set, did offer an ISO add-on that in almost all the cases did not reach MoQ.

Offline Fire Brand

  • Keeper of Rainbows
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 2433
  • Location: West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
  • BISCUITS!
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #74 on: Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:20:16 »
Most SP GBs, since the first introduced Skull Sq. set, did offer an ISO add-on that in almost all the cases did not reach MoQ.
I wouldn't say they didn't reach most do come with a standard ISO support I use standard lightly covering only the 3 keys needed.

And wasn't skull sqaudron DSA? I didn't think you could even get ISO in that so again if I am correct null point if anything ANSI should be split from a main set and also be a addon kit so folks who use ISO don't need to buy keys they would use :p

Anyway I feel this topic will go nowhere since it's going to be a thing of what you grow up with rather than practicality of use, but I stand firm in ANSI  \ |is stupid :I they large key is not needed
My Youtube Channel ~
More
Keyboards owned
More
Poker II - MX Black, Poker II ISO - MX Blue :c QFR ISO - MX Black, HHKB Pro 2 Black, VA68M - Gat Blacks w/68g Gold springs
My classified thread :3
More

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7737
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #75 on: Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:26:40 »
Most SP GBs, since the first introduced Skull Sq. set, did offer an ISO add-on that in almost all the cases did not reach MoQ.
I wouldn't say they didn't reach most do come with a standard ISO support I use standard lightly covering only the 3 keys needed.

And wasn't skull sqaudron DSA? I didn't think you could even get ISO in that so again if I am correct null point if anything ANSI should be split from a main set and also be a addon kit so folks who use ISO don't need to buy keys they would use :p

Anyway I feel this topic will go nowhere since it's going to be a thing of what you grow up with rather than practicality of use, but I stand firm in ANSI  \ |is stupid :I they large key is not needed

Skull Sq., the first run, no the MD one, was DSA, and it was one of the few sets whose ISO add-on reached MoQ. They use a DCS mold to offer ISO support for DSA, as the profiles are similar. I have read SP does not have a DSA ISO mold.

Offline superbia

  • Posts: 130
  • Location: Republique de Croatie
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #76 on: Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:27:37 »
Beyond personal preferences, there is a fact related with ISO and ANSI profiles that makes a huge difference, it is that the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. JTK, for example, does not offer support for ISO yet; most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO either. Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO. That alone is a good reason to go for ANSI, instead of ISO.
the later has more options for custom key sets; due mainly to more people using it. : Correct its a pain to find some of the stranger keys in ISO

most SP GBs and sets do not offer support for ISO: Incorrect most typically do support ISO with a addon kit

Some old Cherry sets do not have support for ISO: Some old cherry sets don't include support for many layouts including ANSI so kinda a null point

Just trying to even it out, to be fair its mainly for what you grew up with, personally I don't care much for ISO or ANSI keyboards a keyboard and types but I have to say I don't like the long left shift and # key on ANSI I just find it silly the placement, again personally I would say go ANSI just to save yourself trouble getting keysets THAT alone is worth going ANSI over ISO

Wasnt this a layout discussion?
I dont recall anyone mentioning keycaps
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline Fire Brand

  • Keeper of Rainbows
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 2433
  • Location: West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
  • BISCUITS!
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #77 on: Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:43:10 »

Wasnt this a layout discussion?
I dont recall anyone mentioning keycaps
They kinda go hand in hand

It's always about the keycaps but maybe you just use raw cherry stems :p
« Last Edit: Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:44:57 by Fire Brand »
My Youtube Channel ~
More
Keyboards owned
More
Poker II - MX Black, Poker II ISO - MX Blue :c QFR ISO - MX Black, HHKB Pro 2 Black, VA68M - Gat Blacks w/68g Gold springs
My classified thread :3
More

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7737
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #78 on: Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:44:57 »

Wasnt this a layout discussion?
I dont recall anyone mentioning keycaps
They kinda go hand in hand

It's always about the keycaps but maybe you just use raw cherry stems?

My thought when I read the remark. Layout equals key caps compatibility and availability.

Offline Fire Brand

  • Keeper of Rainbows
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 2433
  • Location: West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
  • BISCUITS!
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #79 on: Thu, 08 October 2015, 08:54:02 »

Wasnt this a layout discussion?
I dont recall anyone mentioning keycaps
They kinda go hand in hand

It's always about the keycaps but maybe you just use raw cherry stems?

My thought when I read the remark. Layout equals key caps compatibility and availability.
^+1
My Youtube Channel ~
More
Keyboards owned
More
Poker II - MX Black, Poker II ISO - MX Blue :c QFR ISO - MX Black, HHKB Pro 2 Black, VA68M - Gat Blacks w/68g Gold springs
My classified thread :3
More

Offline superbia

  • Posts: 130
  • Location: Republique de Croatie
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #80 on: Thu, 08 October 2015, 09:04:11 »
Show Image



nubbinator wrote:
> but those shift keys are awful


Try it and see! It’s actually extremely nice. (In comparison to ISO/ANSI, which is admittedly a very low bar.)

> and any chained Ctrl+whatever command would be pretty clunky to do.

Also really nice! Much easier than control keys in the corners of the board, and about the same as a board with a control key to the left of the A key. This layout could also work pretty well with shift and control swapped. But using a thumb shift takes a bit more practice than using a 1u-next-to-pinky-home-position shift.

Another nice possibility is to make shifts index-finger keys, replacing e.g. G and H, but then you need a different letter layout, which again has a steeper learning curve.

The final reasonable possibility, as I alluded to upthread, is to use something similar to a standard ISO layout, but shift all the right-hand letter keys over one key to the right, and rotate some other keys into the middle column that opens up. This makes the right shift and ISO enter key no longer impossible to reach, and helps with reaching backslash and backspace. Such a layout still isn’t great, but somewhat better than standard ISO/ANSI.

> One of my more commonly used commands (and common for any IT professional) is Ctrl+Shift+Esc.  I do not see a comfortable way to hit that with that board.

Yep, you’d use the thumb + ring finger + pinky, or thumb + middle finger + ring finger, or either thumb + right pinky + left pinky if you prefer. All three ways are super duper easy to press, dramatically easier than control + shift + escape on a standard keyboard.

That’s a remarkably stupid shortcut though. I’d recommend just remapping to something more convenient.

Also, nubbs: I don’t plan to pay you, don’t worry, and you can keep using whatever crazy layout you want, no skin off my back.

Again, the primary criterion here was to avoid shaking things up too much, so most keys were left alone, and only the worst offenders were moved (backspace, both shifts, escape, control, backslash, f keys, arrows), with some other keys shifted around to accommodate those changes. This is clearly still not close to optimal.

For someone looking to have a more comfortable overall experience, I’d recommend something split, with a column stagger and a lot of extra thumb keys, along the lines of:
Show Image

(This comparison has some duplicated blue outlines of the center columns, to better show how the hands line up on it in comparison to a standard board. You can see how much of the terrible reaching from an ANSI layout is avoided, but it has fewer keys overall so requires a custom layered layout.)

ISO gives you more options on key-arrangement (assuming you have a programmable keyboard)


But i agree with you guys, you will pay much more money for the iso keycaps..
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #81 on: Thu, 08 October 2015, 11:20:09 »
...

Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.
Actually, the improved designs were patented posthumously, and the Sholes/Remington design became an industrial standard later too.

Showing he created improved layouts to match the improved mechanisms. The mechanism improvements were adopted by Remington, but not that character layouts and we got stuck with QWERTY when they standardised it across brands due to the popularity of the Remington machines.
The layout in US 568630 was patented in 1896, i.e., six years after Sholes' death, although the application had been filed in 1889 and parts of the layout were noticeable in US 558428 (application filed in 1881).
Densmore opposed changing layouts much earlier IIRC.
Remington went essentially bankrupt in 1886. The competition (e.g., Caligraph) was doing pretty well. QWERTY didn't really become a de facto standard, until the typewriter trust was formed and eventually adopted QWERTY as a whole; Underwood entered the market around that point too.

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #82 on: Fri, 09 October 2015, 00:51:00 »
...

Sholes actually designed a better layout for the second version which had spring returns, but Remington had already sold too many of the originals and told him they didn't want to force people to learn a new layout... and we still use it to this day.
Actually, the improved designs were patented posthumously, and the Sholes/Remington design became an industrial standard later too.

Showing he created improved layouts to match the improved mechanisms. The mechanism improvements were adopted by Remington, but not that character layouts and we got stuck with QWERTY when they standardised it across brands due to the popularity of the Remington machines.
The layout in US 568630 was patented in 1896, i.e., six years after Sholes' death, although the application had been filed in 1889 and parts of the layout were noticeable in US 558428 (application filed in 1881).
Densmore opposed changing layouts much earlier IIRC.
Remington went essentially bankrupt in 1886. The competition (e.g., Caligraph) was doing pretty well. QWERTY didn't really become a de facto standard, until the typewriter trust was formed and eventually adopted QWERTY as a whole; Underwood entered the market around that point too.

What, you mean dvzine.org got that wrong? I'm scandalised... http://www.dvzine.org/zine/04-05.html

I apologise for spreading misinformation.

Well, the point is, he designed better layouts after the release of the No.1 and No.2 which suited the newer mechanisms which started to be used. From what I can tell, it looks like Remington actually continued to use gravity-returned hammers long after other companies started using spring return, so they'd have had to stick with the QWERTY layout. And they did sell well, so when the trust was formed they chose the popular layout.

So, though Sholes did come up with the layout (which was modified a bit before release by Remington), he's not to blame for it becoming the defacto standard and in fact he designed better layouts as his machine designs changed.

Still, the fact remains that we're using a layout designed for obscure mechanical reasons on boards that use discrete switches. The layout SHOULD have been redesigned with the first electrical / electronic keyboards for computers to suit input to these machines, but it's likely that for data entry purposes they used the same, familiar layout so typists wouldn't have to learn a new layout just to enter data to the terminals.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline superbia

  • Posts: 130
  • Location: Republique de Croatie
Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #83 on: Fri, 09 October 2015, 02:18:13 »
Still, the fact remains that we're using a layout designed for obscure mechanical reasons on boards that use discrete switches. The layout SHOULD have been redesigned with the first electrical / electronic keyboards for computers to suit input to these machines, but it's likely that for data entry purposes they used the same, familiar layout so typists wouldn't have to learn a new layout just to enter data to the terminals.

That is exactly what i wanted to say.. Nicely put together  ;D
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 October 2015, 02:28:17 by superbia »
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH