Help me select the right Das Keyboard

[Freezer]

Hello, I'm new to this forum.  I found it yesterday while researching the Das Keyboard.  I'm a computer programmer and spend 8+ hours a day behind a keyboard, so I'm excited to ditch this cheap keyboard that came free with my computer and get a real keyboard.  But I'm having a hard time deciding which one to get and I'm hoping someone on this forum can help.

I've narrowed it down to the Das Keyboard Pro Model S and Das Keyboard Pro Model S Silent.  I know the different is Cherry MX Blue versus Brown, and I know the Blues make a louder clicking noise than the Browns.  I want to get the keyboard that requires about the same (or slightly more) pressure than my current keyboard.  Short of buying both keyboards I've come up with a test which I think will help.

The test is simple, how many U.S. dimes can you stack onto a key before that key actuates?  I tried this on my 3 keyboards:

1.  Super-cheap USB keyboard with what I would call soft "mushy" feeling keys.  It took 21 dimes to actuate a key.

2.  An older PS/2 keyboard, this has been my main keyboard for 10 years.  It took 29 dimes to actuate a key.

3.  An older Dell AT101W with mechanical switches.  This one has the stiffest feeling keys and took 34 dimes to actuate.


As you can see, this test does work.  Can someone with a Cherry MX Blue and/or Cherry MX Brown please perform this same test and post the results here!?!

Thanks.

[ch_123]

If you've read some of the threads around here about the Das, you'd know that the best Das is no Das. Much better off with a Filco.

I'm not sure how much a dime weighs, but a Brown Cherry takes 45g to actuate, the Blue Cherry about 50g. The Blue has a much sharper tactile feedback in addition to the extra noise. The blues are very popular around here. The browns are also popular, but some people don't like them, because the tactile feedback is quite subtle.

EDIT: Turns out a Dime is approximately 2.25g, so about 20 dimes for the Brown against about 22 dimes for the Blue. Your test seems quite accurate as a Dell AT101W's Black Alps switches are 70g.

[sixty]

In before someone replies "there is no right Das Keyboard". (Edit: Too late)
There are a lot of problems with the Das, even the new model S. I'm sure someone will point you to one of those topics in the long Das bashing that will follow this post

[microsoft windows]

Those Das keyboards seem to be pieces of junk. Why would a company (besides Dell Computer) make products with so many problems?

[Freezer]

Wow, thanks for all the fast replies!

ch_123, thanks for the weight amounts.  Judging by those numbers a keyboard with Cherry MX Blues is going to be closer to the force required for the keyboard I currently use and enjoy.

As for the reports about Das Keyboard problems, I believe I'm aware of all the problems, but please fill me in if there are issues I'm not aware of.  As I understand it the Das Keyboard Pro (III) was released a year ago, but it occasional had problems with the USB hub, NKRO, and was not KVM compatible.  To address these issues they recently released the Model S.  However, it was quickly discovered that the Model S had a design flaw, the NKRO still didn't work correctly, and sometimes a key would completely stop working.  They have since recalled all Model S keyboard and are replacing them at their expense.  The new keyboard (call it Model S II) is due in December.

Are these the issues you speak of?  Yes, it shows they have problems, but at the same time it shows they stand behind their product.  I have considered a Filco.  I think my decision is down to a Das Keyboard Pro Model S II and a Filco Majestouch FKBN104MC/EB.  Both have Cherry MX Blues, cost $129, have a 30-day money back and a 1-year warranty, and are on back order until December.  As for the differences; I personally think the styling of the Das is lightyears ahead of the Filco.  They are both an overall simple design, but the Das IMO has the right amount of flare to it.  And the black gloss finish is sharp looking (admittedly it will be more work to keep clean).  The Das also has a USB hub which means no more bending over under my desk to plugin USB thumb drives.  The benefit in my eyes to the Filco is potentially a more reliable product.  I haven't heard of problems with Filco, but then I haven't research them as much as the Das.  I think I'm going to chance that Das has worked out all the kinks in their keyboard.  If not, 30-day money back plus they seem to stand behind their product.  Either way, Das or Filco, I'll post pictures and my review on this forum.

ripster, so you wanted to see pics of the dimes on the Dell AT101W.  Here you go.  When I repeated the test to take pictures I was only able to stack 33 dimes before the key actuated.  So here are some pictures of 33 dimes on a Dell AT101W.

[alpslover]

I haven't heard of problems with Filco, but then I haven't research them as much as the Das.

but we have.  the bottom line is - if you're a form over function type of person, buy a das.  if on the other hand you place priority on a keyboard working correctly, buy a filco.

[ocdonkb]

I've never understood why people prefer glossy finish. It looks "plastic-y", attracts finger prints, makes the device look cheap and very unprofessional.

This goes not just to keyboards, but to LCDs(see Apple's glossy finish on iMac and MBP's), and notebooks(I much prefer my all-matte-finish black Thinkpad)

While researching mechanical kb and looking at pictures, it took me about 0.5 sec to pick the understated beauty of the matte Filco, over the flashy/shinny Das.

[alpslover]

What form?

form in freezer's eyes.

[Shuki]

I must say I much prefer the general layout and overall design of the Filco to any Das keyboard.

[ch_123]

As for the reports about Das Keyboard problems, I believe I'm aware of all the problems, but please fill me in if there are issues I'm not aware of.  As I understand it the Das Keyboard Pro (III) was released a year ago, but it occasional had problems with the USB hub, NKRO, and was not KVM compatible.  To address these issues they recently released the Model S.  However, it was quickly discovered that the Model S had a design flaw, the NKRO still didn't work correctly, and sometimes a key would completely stop working.  They have since recalled all Model S keyboard and are replacing them at their expense.  The new keyboard (call it Model S II) is due in December.

They had key transposition issues as well which were quite nasty. The S, as far as I know still had all the old problems. Point is, the company has been selling products with the same faults for nearly 2 years despite them knowing about it. I'd be slightly cynical as to whether they are actually going to fix it properly any time soon.

Are these the issues you speak of?  Yes, it shows they have problems, but at the same time it shows they stand behind their product.

Yeah, they stood behind a faulty product for two years and kept selling it. That's real dedication! Hell, they even had a sale on all the ones that people sent back because of the faults.

The Das also has a USB hub which means no more bending over under my desk to plugin USB thumb drives.  The benefit in my eyes to the Filco is potentially a more reliable product.

You mean the one that causes people's PCs not to turn on?  

I haven't heard of problems with Filco

That's because there are none, although there are some who complain that the keys get shiny after a bit. However, that's a problem with just about any black keyboard, and the Das would probably be no different.

Apologies if I sound irritable (all above is meant in a light hearted manner) but really, there's a good reason why there's very few Das owners around here.

A dime is 2.268g btw

2.25g when approximated for simplicity =P

(don't ever trust a Brit - they still use that funny money)

Don't worry, you're only about 90 years of date...

[alpslover]

They had key transposition issues as well which were quite nasty. The S, as far as I know still had all the old problems.

no, the s 'fixed' the das 3's key transposition issue.  also, medadot claims the s has laser-etched keys.

[ch_123]

I thought it wasn't properly fixed, or at least someone recreated the problems?

And I had forgot about the Laser Etched keys...

[alpslover]

I thought it wasn't properly fixed, or at least someone recreated the problems?

the key transposition issue was fixed, but the s introduced some issues that the das 3 didn't have.  for example, the s's n-key rollover is broken, and sometimes keypresses won't register at all.

[ch_123]

Nice job Metadot! Why they can't just ask Costar to stick a Filco controller in it and call it a day...

[elbowglue]

Here is the page with the best Das Keyboards, pick any on this page, you can't go wrong.

http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=special&filter=fullsize

[ch_123]

It's only a matter of time before MS Windows recommends an M5-2...

[quadibloc]

In before someone replies "there is no right Das Keyboard".

What I would have expected someone to chime in with is that the thread should have been titled:

Help me select Das Richte Keyboard

(the joke being that Das is German for "the").

I do not object to the keys being glossy instead of matte, but if they're going for glossy, they should go whole hog, and provide double-shot cupped keys.

[microsoft windows]

It's only a matter of time before MS Windows recommends an M5-2...

Those are too uncommon to recommend to everyone (even though I definitely have a liking for mine as I'm sure you all have seen). However, I would heartily recommend an IBM Model M.

[iMav]

Just another note on the Metadot recall(s).  They ignored the original issues for quite a while.  We clamored quite loudly here, along with other dissatisfied customers and it wasn't till just about every other Das keyboard google search resulted in info about the flaw that they finally acknowledged the issue.

To metadot's credit, they have stepped up to the plate relatively quickly with the S issues.  However, I won't stand up for them until they come here and face their critics.  

[microsoft windows]

I'll give Metadot the Dell Award. Knowingly sel

[Freezer]

When I originally started this thread I was trying to decide between the Das Keyboard with Cherry Blues versus Cherry Browns.  I eliminated the Cherry Browns as too soft.  Most people who replied suggested I get a Filco instead of the Das, so I also considered a Filco with Cherry Blues.  However, I ultimately decided to go with a Das Keyboard Model S Professional.

I received my new keyboard a few days ago and I just posted a review in the "keyboard reviews" section of this forum.  I love my new keyboard.  The look and feel is incredible.  This is the first mechanical switch keyboard I've ever used.

I've really tested the keyboard trying to reproduce the known issues with previous Das keyboards.  As far as I can tell, all the previous problems have been fixed and I cannot find any new ones.

Admittedly Das doesn't have the track record that Filco does, but it looks like they finally got it right.  So hopefully Filco users can keep an open mind.

[AndrewZorn]

well, happy is happy, but if true that is the first i have heard of the issues actually being resolved.

[microsoft windows]

It's only a matter of time before MS Windows recommends an M5-2...

I'd recommend an M5-2 for clubbing you over the head for that.

[jsharp768]

When I originally started this thread I was trying to decide between the Das Keyboard with Cherry Blues versus Cherry Browns.  I eliminated the Cherry Browns as too soft.  Most people who replied suggested I get a Filco instead of the Das, so I also considered a Filco with Cherry Blues.  However, I ultimately decided to go with a Das Keyboard Model S Professional.

I received my new keyboard a few days ago and I just posted a review in the "keyboard reviews" section of this forum.  I love my new keyboard.  The look and feel is incredible.  This is the first mechanical switch keyboard I've ever used.

I've really tested the keyboard trying to reproduce the known issues with previous Das keyboards.  As far as I can tell, all the previous problems have been fixed and I cannot find any new ones.

Admittedly Das doesn't have the track record that Filco does, but it looks like they finally got it right.  So hopefully Filco users can keep an open mind.

I'm in pretty much the same boat as you were. I was originally going to get a Das before I found this forum. Well, I wasn't going to "get" a Das, I was going to "settle" for one before I found out that there were better keyboards out there. In my opinion, the function key absolutely destroys the aesthetics of the model S (even on the Ultimate with the blank keys). I never use the windows key (I ****ing hate windows), but the added function key destroys the simplicity of the design.

Besides, I agree with ocdonkb. The glossy finish looks nice out of the box, but once you get dust and finger prints on it the aesthetics go to hell.

[microsoft windows]

That's why I use old dirty keyboards. They look bad to start so you don't have to worry about finger prints.

[jsharp768]

I don't know how you guys can find those old, grey and beige keyboards attractive. Sure, they may be very functional, but there must be plenty of modern keyboards with the same level of functionality that aren't such an eye sore.

[jsharp768]

Grey can grow on you.

Like cancer, maybe.

[microsoft windows]

That would argue for gray keyboards being the most practical.

Show Image

Now there's a reason not to be a chain smoker.

[Mental Hobbit]

That would argue for gray keyboards being the most practical.

Show Image

Black matte finish, as on my Steelseries 7G, works very well for an extended ash tray too. Hope the surface of my new Filco will have similar qualities - if that thing gets ever out of German customs.

Had to go mechanical cause cigarette butts would always block those fiddly scissor switches on my Logitechs.

[microsoft windows]

Is that your poor destroyed Boscom in the picture?

[keyb_gr]

I don't know how you guys can find those old, grey and beige keyboards attractive. Sure, they may be very functional, but there must be plenty of modern keyboards with the same level of functionality that aren't such an eye sore.

First of all, it's all a matter of fashion. Beige happened to be the "in" color for business computers around 1980 or thereabouts, and it wouldn't have stuck with us for so long without the success of IBM-compatible PCs. Certainly several other color schemes would have been equally feasible. Anyway, fashion implies that people obviously get used to it. If this was possible 20 years ago it would work equally well today, after all humans themselves have not changed. It's just that they're used to newer fashion trends now and may thus consider older ones silly.

If there were a large number of modern keyboards with the same level of functionality and construction quality as our old beige/grey clunkers, this forum might not even exist. But that just isn't the case, and what's out there costs good money (for good reason). Obtaining a good keyboard on a shoestring budget (either because you're broke or merely want to sample a certain type) usually involves the used market, where most of what's deemed worthy was made somewhere from the late '80s to the mid-'90s.

Now there's a reason not to be a chain smoker.

Ugh. :faint2: How true.

Smoker's electronics can be bad, but THIS... :puke:

That's pretty much only beaten by a keyboard that started smoking by itself:

[Hak Foo]

What about a Das II, or as it's more commonly called, a G80-3000?  Few of the weirdnsses of the Das III and S

[ch_123]

I don't know how you guys can find those old, grey and beige keyboards attractive. Sure, they may be very functional, but there must be plenty of modern keyboards with the same level of functionality that aren't such an eye sore.

If you're looking at the keyboard, you're doing it wrong.

[jsharp768]

If you're looking at the keyboard, you're doing it wrong.

Touché.