Cherry Brown or Topre?

[wordfool]

Hello everyone :tea:

I've decided to get a replacement (or should I say supplement) for my trusty M13 because I often need a quieter board and I'd like to actually use the Windows keys (now I have Win7) without having to remap anything.

So with the help of all you folks here I've narrowed it down to a Brown Cherry keyboard (Filco) or a Topre Realforce. What I'm trying to decide is which might be better suited to my typing style. It sounds like they both need about the same force to register a keypress, but I'm worried that because this force is considerably less than required on my M13 I'll end up craving some form -- any form -- of tactile feedback. Which of them is gonna give me more feedback, or is the feedback from each so different that it's hard to compare?

For the record, I'm a medium-fast typer who makes lot of typos (but have trained Word to fix most of them) and have pretty big, clunky hands that tend to lightly bottom out the keys on my M13. And I won't be using this board for gaming.

Oh, and money's no object... meant in the sense that I'm a writer/journalist by trade, so spending $200 on a keyboard seems reasonable to me (and I can write it off against taxes).

[AndrewZorn]

brown feels lighter, but topre is smoother

[wordfool]

so the Topre requires more force to register? That sounds like it might be better for me since I'm used to an M13 and apparently have "heavy" fingers.

[AndrewZorn]

not by much at all, they will probably both seem ULTRALIGHT to you

[timw4mail]

You'd probably be better off with a Cherry MX clear switch keyboard, such as the tactile Deck.

Or you could get an Endurapro from Unicomp, which is basically the same thing as you have with Windows keys.

Coming from buckling springs, Cherry Browns do not feel tactile.

[ch_123]

Both of them are meant to offer 45g of resistance, which is a good deal less than what your M13 would provide (65-70g).

I don't own either one (would like to get a HHKB at one point though) but the general consensus around here is that Browns have better tactility, but the Topres are smoother and are very pleasant to type on for extended periods. It's generally acknowledged that the Realforce keyboards are better built than Filcos, but not necessarily twice as better considering that they are twice the price. This is obviously the price you pay when you get into high products in anything...

I wouldn't worry about bottoming out - once you get used to the lighter switched, you'll fly on them.

[AndrewZorn]

im not the only one who cannot help bottoming out the topre switches

[bigpook]

maybe, but with some practice I can bottom out lightly on the cherry browns. At first I was bottoming hard. It takes a bit, but you adjust and don't use as much force to press the key.

[wordfool]

If not for the sound issue I'd happily get a Unicomp but, alas, I need a quieter keyboard at times (I'll be keeping the M13, however).

I've not read much about the Cherry White/Clear switches, but I did see a few reviews in other places of the Deck keyboards and both the linear and tactile versions generally seem to be rated lower for typing that the Filco range. The backlighting is kinda cool but ultimately a bit pointless to this non-gamer (and probably why they cost $170).

I'll look into the Clear/white switches some more.

[itlnstln]

According to ripster, an alternative to the Cherry clears would be ALPS blacks which you can get in the Dell AT-101W or in the Filco Zero.  I haven't used the Cherry clears myself, but, IIRC, ripster said they felt pretty similar.  I will say, though, that the black ALPS are quite a bit louder than the Cherry browns for a variety of reasons.  Both my Cherry G80-3000 and my Filco are about as loud as a rubber dome 'board with the Cherry being a little quieter.

[AndrewZorn]

wow, i just now got it...

italian stallion

not that i was ever trying to decrypt it

[itlnstln]

wow, i just now got it...
 
italian stallion
 
not that i was ever trying to decrypt it

The search button is your friend... http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=83364&postcount=32
 
 
BTW, I'm a girl.

[AndrewZorn]

The search button is your friend... http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=83364&postcount=32
 
 
BTW, I'm a girl.

no, i didnt use the search button to find out what your name meant, or your childhood history... and you're not a girl.  this is the internet.

[itlnstln]

Don't worry, I had forgotten about that thread.  That thing got buried a long time ago.  It might be good to resurrect it seeing how many new members we have.

[wordfool]

The Deck seems to be the only option for the white switches, so I guess that's a dead end. I'd get a Realforce to try out except I can't help believing it's just a glorified rubber-dome keyboard, distantly related the crapola on sale at my local OfficeMax (and $230 is overboard for experimentation). The Filco Zero looks like it's only availabe in tenkeyless, and unless a numberpad can be daisychained I'm gonna need a 104 key.

So it is true what they say -- there really is nothing like a buckling spring keyboard. Is there such a thing as a quiet buckling spring board? Or does the only solution involve a grease gun?  Maybe I'll try a Filco FKB104M/EB first and simply use it to brain someone out of frustration if I don't like it :boxing:

[AndrewZorn]

makes me wish i still had the box around for my basically-new FKB104M/EB so that i could sell it [soon].  its not that i dont like it, i just really wish i had the tenkeyless version.  the question then becomes, could i really pay $120+shipping for it?

[microsoft windows]

If you want a keyboard that requires little force but has tactile feedback, you might want to look into getting a keyboard with complicated White ALPS keyswitches such as a Northgate Omnikey.
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-NORTHGATE-OMNIKEY-102-KEYBOARD_W0QQitemZ290370876257QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item439b73f361

[wordfool]

I might be up for buying that Majestouch off you

But first I have to look into the ALPS switch keyboards to see if they might be an option or decide whether to close my eyes, swallow hard, and buy a Realforce (I have to say that the black lettering on black keys of the Realforce does look kule).

How noisy is something like the Northgate?

[ch_123]

Nothing is as noisy as a Model M, except for the Model F which is louder.

What about a Blue Cherry keyboard? They're quite pleasant to type on, and somewhat quieter than an IBM (although by no means a quiet keyboard).

As far as I know, the Alps are louder than the Blue Cherrys.

[AndrewZorn]

honestly i dont think either is going to feel anything like a buckling sping, you should be prepared for a complete change
i have heard good and bad things about the alps, havent used one yet myself, but i have never heard that they are quiet

[microsoft windows]

I have a keyboard with the same switches as a Northgate and the swieches definitely have an audible click, but their action is much lighter than that of a Model M. If you want to get a cheaper keyboard with complicated white alps, I'd recommend this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Focus-Electronics-Clicky-Keyboard-FK-6000-Missing-1-Key_W0QQitemZ200399892157QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2ea8c3aebd
It's missing an arrow key so I definitely wouldn't offer $30 for it, but it's not hard to find keycaps for Alps keyswitches.

[wordfool]

What about a Blue Cherry keyboard? They're quite pleasant to type on, and somewhat quieter than an IBM (although by no means a quiet keyboard).

That was my first thought, but then I listened to ripster's recordings and decided the blues were more or less as loud as the M, just a slightly different (more annoying?) sound -- a sharper "click" to the M's "clack", although also less "poing" than the M.

If they really are quieter overall then I might go for a cherry blue (except elitekeyboards is currently ou of stock). My problem with the M13 noise is related to waking people up when I pull late nighters and not being able to hear someone on the phone properly when I'm transcribing due to the clackety racket of the keyboard.

[ch_123]

That was my first thought, but then I listened to ripster's recordings and decided the blues were more or less as loud as the M, just a slightly different (more annoying?) sound -- a sharper "click" to the M's "clack", although also less "poing" than the M.

If they really are quieter overall then I might go for a cherry blue (except elitekeyboards is currently ou of stock). My problem with the M13 noise is related to waking people up when I pull late nighters and not being able to hear someone on the phone properly when I'm transcribing due to the clackety racket of the keyboard.

You could try a greased Model M? If you search "Endurapro Grease" and look for Wellington's Endurapro mod, you should find recordings of it. You can cut down the noise and almost eliminate the ping without much reduction of tactility.

[alpslover]

I have a keyboard with the same switches as a Northgate and the swieches definitely have an audible click, but their action is much lighter than that of a Model M. If you want to get a cheaper keyboard with complicated white alps, I'd recommend this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Focus-Electronics-Clicky-Keyboard-FK-6000-Missing-1-Key_W0QQitemZ200399892157QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2ea8c3aebd
It's missing an arrow key so I definitely wouldn't offer $30 for it, but it's not hard to find keycaps for Alps keyswitches.

those are not alps switches.  they look like smk click tactiles, which aren't bad.  they're a bit lighter and crisper than alps click tactiles.

i find the brown cherries to be a bit unsatisfying to type on, but that's probably because i like noisy tactile switches.

[wordfool]

So now you've all got me thinking that Cherry Blues are actually not going to be as noisy overall as my trusty black M13. Can anyone chime in on that? All I need is a keyboard that's perhaps 25% quieter than my M13 overall, and a "clickety-click" noise is certainly going to be better than the "clackety-clack" noise of the M.

The blues need about 10g more force than the browns to register, right?

I'm also wondering if the Filco blues sound different to the Scorpius or Das blues -- I listened to a youtube review of the scorpius and it sounded reasonable.

[microsoft windows]

I've got to find myself some cheap old keyboard with blue Cherry switches so I can try them someday.

[rdjack21]

A little food for thought. Here is a force graph for a bunch of different switches:

From the Topre wiki page


What you will note is how sharp the tactile bump is in the Buckling Spring (purple line) and that is what really make it unique. It also makes it a very satisfying typing experience.

On the other end you have the Topre(lite blue line) with a shallow tactile point but with a very smooth action. For me it is that smoothness and the fact that you don't have to bottom it out for a key to register that make it unique. And lets not forget the build quality you are going to get when buying a Realforce board.

In the middle you have the Cherry brown(brown line) and the very first thing I notice is how rough the force graph is for it. After typing on both a BS board (Model M space saver) and a Topre (a bunch of them) the browns are not really a satisfying typing experience for me. Don't get me wrong they are OK but just not great.

Personally I prefer the Topre/Realforce over a BS but just barely then the browns. If I had to pick another click switch it would be white Alps. The blue cherry switches produce a click that is to high of a pitch that just gets on my nerves over time. The Black Alps loose out just because I already have a quite board in either the Topre or the browns.

Any ways just my 2 cents.

EDIT: Forgot to recommend which to get. Well I'm very biased and prefer the Topre but in all reality it is up to you. All I can do is try to supply information to help you make that decision for yourself. But contrary to what  others have said if you need a quite board stay away from the blues.

[AndrewZorn]

interesting to see all the graphs on top of each other,

also nice to hear some positive aspects for all these different switches i am accumulating and will soon use.  once i get that G80-3000, my collection will be COMPLETE (for the mean time)

[wordfool]

Thanks for the graph... but darn it there's nothing for the cherry blues. I presume the line will look as rough as the browns. The alps does seem to have a nice sharp bump, but alps boards appear to be noisier than the cherry blues from what I can tell, and noise is a deal killer for me. The Topre line suggests the keys will be really easy to bottom out since after the hump there's basically no resistance. Thats' the nice thing about the BS keys -- after registering the click they feel like they have a decent suspension system that lessens the impact if I do bottom them out.

Now you have me wondering if the Fukka (faux-alps) keys on the filco tenkeyless might be worth trying... more research for me.

[AndrewZorn]

i still don't feel any bump, and i dont see where the graph shows it either.  sometimes i feel like topre is pulling a big joke on everyone, "look!  we made them buy rubber dome keyboards for $250, and then see how elitist they can be with them!"

[wordfool]

sometimes i feel like topre is pulling a big joke on everyone, "look!  we made them buy rubber dome keyboards for $250, and then see how elitist they can be with them!"

That's what I can't get past, either. $250 for a basic-looking keyboard just seems like overkill, even if the switches were gold plated. Just seems like a distant cousin to $10 OfficeMax specials. And I'm someone who generally feels good about spending way too much money on geeky things!

So now I have to decide between the fukka and cherry blue switches, both of which might not be "quiet" but seem to be quieter than a BS keyboard.

[maxlugar]

sometimes i feel like topre is pulling a big joke on everyone, "look!  we made them buy rubber dome keyboards for $250, and then see how elitist they can be with them!"

I can understand how that might be your initial impression upon typing on a Topre key switch board.  I had the same first impression.

But if you still feel that way after typing on the Topre keyboards after a couple of days, you've just wasted $250 or $300.  I have not found any other switch as comfortable to type on for extended periods of time.  Although they are not my favourite keyboards, I would be hard pressed to give up my HHKB Pro 2 and Realforce 87U.

[ignoo]

The Deck seems to be the only option for the white switches, so I guess that's a dead end.

The Deck Legend is a nice board man.  What's yer beef with it?

[timw4mail]

The Deck Legend is a nice board man.  What's yer beef with it?

It's expensive and superfluously backlit, for one.

[rdjack21]

Thanks for the graph... but darn it there's nothing for the cherry blues. I presume the line will look as rough as the browns. The alps does seem to have a nice sharp bump, but alps boards appear to be noisier than the cherry blues from what I can tell, and noise is a deal killer for me. The Topre line suggests the keys will be really easy to bottom out since after the hump there's basically no resistance. Thats' the nice thing about the BS keys -- after registering the click they feel like they have a decent suspension system that lessens the impact if I do bottom them out.

Now you have me wondering if the Fukka (faux-alps) keys on the filco tenkeyless might be worth trying... more research for me.

Very true the Topre's are easy to bottom out same as the Cherry browns and blues. But when you do bottom them out they have a nice soft landing with a solid feel.

[rdjack21]

i still don't feel any bump, and i dont see where the graph shows it either.  sometimes i feel like topre is pulling a big joke on everyone, "look!  we made them buy rubber dome keyboards for $250, and then see how elitist they can be with them!"

I can understand how that might be your initial impression upon typing on a Topre key switch board.  I had the same first impression.

But if you still feel that way after typing on the Topre keyboards after a couple of days, you've just wasted $250 or $300.  I have not found any other switch as comfortable to type on for extended periods of time.  Although they are not my favourite keyboards, I would be hard pressed to give up my HHKB Pro 2 and Realforce 87U.

That's what I can't get past, either. $250 for a basic-looking keyboard just seems like overkill, even if the switches were gold plated. Just seems like a distant cousin to $10 OfficeMax specials. And I'm someone who generally feels good about spending way too much money on geeky things!

The Topre boards are by no means like a $10 OfficeMax special. I know everyone wants to make that comparison but their is really no comparison at all. Take a look at this disassembly of a KeyTronic keyboard which is one of the better rubber dome boards out there. Then take a look at HHKB Pro 2 Exposed and Realforce 87U Opened Up and for an explanation of how the switch works see Topre/Realforce wiki. Don't get me wrong a Topre is not for everyone but I do believe you are getting what you pay for. I also agree with maxlugar in that you really have to type on them a bit before you really appreciate the design.

So now I have to decide between the fukka and cherry blue switches, both of which might not be "quiet" but seem to be quieter than a BS keyboard.

I don't think either are really any quiter than a BS board but if you really want that very distinctive tactile bump and the noise that goes with it go for one of those two switch types but if you really want a quit board you can't go wrong with a Topre or a brown cherry. But then again most people that really love the BS are not really satisfied with anything other than a BS.

[wordfool]

I don't think either are really any quiter than a BS board but if you really want that very distinctive tactile bump and the noise that goes with it go for one of those two switch types but if you really want a quit board you can't go wrong with a Topre or a brown cherry. But then again most people that really love the BS are not really satisfied with anything other than a BS.

I was under the impression that the Cherry browns have less of a tactile bump than the blues, even disregarding the noise, because they require less force. The alps also have a force that's closer to the BS. The Realforce keyboard has decent enough force on paper for some of the keys, but sounds way too light for others, which is why I've pushed it down my list.

Basically the noise of a keypress does nothing for me since there's so much clattering resonance in my M13 that I can't even make out each individual click when typing fast. I would however like something quieter than a BS. Maybe I'll get a cherry blue and spray expanding foam into each keycap to deaden the sound :smile:

[itlnstln]

Maybe I'll get a cherry blue and spray expanding foam into each keycap to deaden the sound :smile:

Get a Cherry G80-3000 with blues.  It should be pretty quiet compared to other blue Cherry 'boards.  The brown version is almost silent.

[itlnstln]

You may also have to watch out for the extra mass changing the key feel, too.

[AndrewZorn]

i was kidding about the topre joke thing.  it is much better than a real membrane.

[wordfool]

you guys should set up a lending library of keyboards so us n00bs can all discover what a $250 keyboard feels like. I mean it's not like you don't all have dozens of unused keyboards lying around at any one time  :smile:

[itlnstln]

I think someone did this a long time ago with ALPS.  It wouldn't be a bad idea.

[itlnstln]

I think it was sold, actually, but yeah, that's always a risk lending 'boards out.  I certainly wouldn't mind if somebody wanted to come visit me and check out one of my 'boards, but I would feel a little uneasy about sending it away, in general.  You could have some sort of deposit to cover the expense should someone decide to pilfer it.

[AndrewZorn]

it wouldn't be perfect to actually know what it would be like to TYPE on, but i have previously envisioned a basic piece of wood (idea from that number row/symbol thing) with the key switches (one of each) uselessly glued to it, with keycaps

so you wouldn't get the full experience per se, but it would just be like 10 individual switches, and you could sit there and push each one with one finger with the device laid on a desk.  it would be cheaper in case it didn't get passed on to the next person.

[rdjack21]

Basically the noise of a keypress does nothing for me since there's so much clattering resonance in my M13 that I can't even make out each individual click when typing fast. I would however like something quieter than a BS. Maybe I'll get a cherry blue and spray expanding foam into each keycap to deaden the sound :smile:

The problem with that is that the space under the key needs to be there so the key will go around the switch as you depress it. Now what may be possible and could reduce the sound some is to get a non plate mounted blue cherry board and put the foam around the switches. But I would use something a little denser than the expanding foam spray because I not sure that it would really absorb much of the noise.

[ignoo]

It's expensive and superfluously backlit, for one.

None of these nice mechanical switch boards are inexpensive, so one has to be willing to spend.  To say the delicious backlighting on the Deck is superfluous is just crazy talk. CRAZY. It is geek sheik supreme. You can also turn off the backlighting altogether at will. If you want a good Cherry Clear board, the Deck will not disappoint. I'm not exactly in love with these switches myself (and plan on buying from the next batch of Cherry Blue Filco 104 boards EliteKeyboards gets in), but the Deck is a very solid board.  In fact, if it had Cherry Blues, I would not even bother trying Filco at all.

[AndrewZorn]

it's expensive even for what it is,
and the backlighting is unnecessary (and doesn't even look cool because of the awful font... fix that and id at least say it looks neat)

then again, if they changed the font, ever so slightly fixed the layout, offered the compact one with an opaque casing (without buying it separately), then i probably would want one.

[ignoo]

Yeah, I do have to admit the font is bad. But, it still looks cool. Eye of the beholder, I suppose. If by layout, you mean the FN key being annoyingly located next to the spacebar, I do agree there.

[AndrewZorn]

theres a lot about the layout that is pretty absurd.  the 1 key is the worst.

[wordfool]

it wouldn't be perfect to actually know what it would be like to TYPE on, but i have previously envisioned a basic piece of wood (idea from that number row/symbol thing) with the key switches (one of each) uselessly glued to it, with keycaps

I'd be up for that. A single board with, say, five each of cherry browns and blues, alps white and black, topre and BS. Problem is that a big chunk of wood might cost a bit much to mail each time.

Alternatively, anyone in San Francisco got cherry blue, alps and topre 'boards I could try?!