Cherry Brown or Topre?

[ignoo]

Oh you must be referring to the 82 key.  Yeah that's a mess.  I'm using the 105 key board.

[AndrewZorn]

no, im saying just ONE of each key, maybe one or two rows only, something that would fit in a $5 flat rate box.

about to try to find a picture of my inspiration, hold on

EDIT couldnt find it, so use imagination:



or you could go for a whitman's sampler configuration, especially since it IS a sampler:





its like how i was making all these AWESOME little key switch icons, to use in my signature as "have-its", but then realized i cant have images in my signature:


i had made a few more, but stopped resizing (i worked so hard on tiny details that don't show up at sig-icon size) and bordering them when i found out the bad news.
i wanted them to be uniformly based on colorized versions of technical drawings.  never found one for alps.

BUT THE POINT IS the whole thing is very cheap to ship, and very inexpensive if someone does not follow through.  plus with a nice piece of wood and good craftsmanship it would be a nice little desk ornament/paperweight.  not possible to get the typing experience, you won't even know if the key actually registers, but i think you could get the idea well enough to know whether you want to buy one or not.

[wordfool]

Sounds perfect. Just hurry before I buy every type of keyboard under the sun!

[AndrewZorn]

i think the whole thing could be fit inside of an altoids tin if you were really handy.  maybe not as artsy as the block of wood, but a neat idea in itself

EDIT and for the keycaps, what about getting some of the colorful cherry caps, so that a C key would be used for all the cherry switches, but a blue, brown, black, white (yes), red keycap to denote the colors... then of course a T for Topre, B for BS, A for Alps, etc...

[wordfool]

i think the whole thing could be fit inside of an altoids tin if you were really handy.  maybe not as artsy as the block of wood, but a neat idea in itself

A small USPS flat rate Priority box would be a good template size-wise

[microsoft windows]

Making a key sampler? That sounds like a neat idea.

[wordfool]

So I don't spend the next three weeks pulling my hair out trying to decide, I need a neat summary of opinons that I can average out. So without further ado, I created a little test to occupy anyone with time on their hands -- how would you good folks rate the following four keyboards in terms of tactility (is that a word?) and ability to wake someone sleeping in the next room when typing 100wpm. Please only score those keyboards you have had experience with.

The tactile scale (which is about resistance curve only, not audible clicks) goes from 1 to 5, with 1 being a bad membrane keyboard with the membrane apparently made of fresh poo and 5 being a Model M with titanium springs that gives you a precise sense of when a keystroke has registered. The noise scale goes from 1 (unlikely to wake an insomniac lightly dozing next to you) up to 5 (likely to wake a narcoleptic asleep on the street) and is the total noise of the 'board, including switch clicks, bottoming out, topping out, and case resonance. I'd rate the Model M a 4.5-5 on that scale (although I haven't tested in on my local narcoleptics).

And the contenders:
Filco Brown Cherry
Filco Blue Cherry
Realforce Topre 104
Filco Zero Fukka

[wordfool]

well it's a start. I'll put that in my spreadsheet

[AndrewZorn]

wait, tactility or force?  the model m wins because it's harder to push down?

[wordfool]

I'll edit my notes... tactility as in giving you the best sense of when a keystroke has actually registered (the Model M being close to perfect due to its very sharp drop in resistance after the hump)

[wordfool]

here's what I've sorta deduced from a couple days on these boards and listening to way too many youtube clips:

Tactility -- filco brown 3, topre 2.5, filco blue 4, fukka 4 (and Model-M 5)
Total noise while typing fast -- topre 2, filco brown 2, filco blue 3, fukka 4 (and Model-M 5)

[AndrewZorn]

in that case

topre - 1/5 or 2/5
brown - 3/5 (just for your poll, see below)
membrane - 5/5 ("when it hits the bottom...")

i dont really get it though... how can it give you a BETTER sense of it registering?  either it does or doesnt, and either you feel it or you dont.  i cant feel topre, i can feel brown.  a model m would be a bigger punch but the brown notifies me just as effectively.

[ch_123]

Subtract all the above scores by one, and add the Model F in at number 5 =P

All jokes aside, I think a larger scale would probably serve this kind of thing better.

[wordfool]

I guess what I mean is getting a sense of registering before the key bottoms out so your finger can move on to the next key without necessarily having to full-travel the previous one. That's why I rate the crummy membranes as a 1 because for a lot of them the only "hump" is the bottoming out -- there's nothing during the 4mm or so of key travel that otherwise tells you a keystroke has registered. My M13 keys have a hump at about 2mm, after which I can back off that key before going the full 4mm knowing the keystroke is registered.

[wordfool]

I don't do surveys.  Plus, you're thinking too much.  You know the answer in your heart.

Right now I think the answer's in my wallet. But I am thinking too much, which is why I should perhaps just buy them all.

How active are the classifieds here? They look kinda dead, otherwise I'd be confident I could sell a LNIB keyboard if I didn't like it.

[ch_123]

I'd consider them to be active... What sort of keyboard are you selling here?

[wordfool]

I'd consider them to be active... What sort of keyboard are you selling here?

The one I'm about to buy and probably won't like when it arrives. I'm thinking of rolling a dice and assigning a number each to filco blue, filco brown, realforce and fukka.

Unless I find my heart before then, but it has been MIA for some time now. .

[AndrewZorn]

all the like-new stuff seems to sell pretty quick, just dont try to get what you paid and it should sell

EDIT and yeah, cherry blue and realforce dont seem to have that many people who decide they do not like them

[ch_123]

Go for the Blues, they're a pretty reliable choice.

[microsoft windows]

Do you know of any other switches that feel similar to the blue Cherry's?

[wordfool]

I was hoping the browns would feel like the blues, just without the click (which is hwo they seem to be marketed), but by all accounts they are also slightly lighter as well as quieter.

[maxlugar]

I was hoping the browns would feel like the blues, just without the click (which is hwo they seem to be marketed), but by all accounts they are also slightly lighter as well as quieter.

Wait for the Blue Cherry keyboards.  The Browns are NOT just like the blues without the click.  I personally do not care for the Browns because the tactile bump is so subtle, the switch feels linear.  I mean the Dell AT101W with Cherry switches has more tactility than the Cherry Browns, but also requires more force for the key presses. I prefer the Topre key switches over the Brown Cherries.

The Blue Cherries are light (almost too light for me) but also a lot of fun to type on.  I got two Filco FKBN104/MC boards: one for home and one for the office becasue I got tired of carrying the keyboard back and forth.

I also have a TVS Gold keyboard that uses Blue Cherry key switches.  It is a pretty decent keyboard - very decent considering it costs about $25 USD.  However, I prefer the solid feel of the Filcos (for 5 times the price).

You can actually get a 104 key Blue Cherry keyboard right now from EliteKeyboards.com...if you like pink  

[HungryPillow]

You can actually get a 104 key Blue Cherry keyboard right now from EliteKeyboards.com...if you like pink  

Do it!!! (and then post pics)

[rdjack21]

I guess what I mean is getting a sense of registering before the key bottoms out so your finger can move on to the next key without necessarily having to full-travel the previous one. That's why I rate the crummy membranes as a 1 because for a lot of them the only "hump" is the bottoming out -- there's nothing during the 4mm or so of key travel that otherwise tells you a keystroke has registered. My M13 keys have a hump at about 2mm, after which I can back off that key before going the full 4mm knowing the keystroke is registered.

The only bump that matters on a rubber dome board is the bottom out bump because that is when the key is registered. I would not typify all membrane boards as crummy because the IBM Model M is nothing more than a Hammer on membrane. What makes them different is how the contact is made, on a rubber dome you bottom out the dome and a nub in the dome forces the membranes to make contact, on BS a spring buckles causing a hammer to slam into the membrane which then makes the contact.

The Topre is different (if you really want to know the difference read the top section of the wiki) like the Model M you do not have to bottom out the key for a key to register. But as you mentioned the feel is very subtle and you have to use the board for a while to really feel it. If you bottom it out you know for sure that the key registered no matter how hard or light you bottomed it out. The key actually registers at about mid point. Also the hump you feel in most rubber domes including the Topre is the dome collapsing basically the key will feel like it is falling away from your finger when that happens on a Topre board the key has registered.

ha - we're up to 85 posts.  After 15 more you are forced by the site admin to buy us all a beer.

In your Original Post you said you needed a quieter keyboard.   I'm not sure if it's an office mate or baby or whatever but if it's baby quiet, quiet, quiet you need it's Topre baby!   Or buy somebody some headphones.

I agree with you ripster this thread has moved away from "I want a quite board" to "I want another board like the BS I have". None of the click boards and thus boards with a well defined tactile point are quite. I don't know of a quite board that really has a well defined tactile point like a BS board or of the cherry blue for that matter.

[AndrewZorn]

im serious though, i dont think brown is really significantly louder than topre

also, why is a membrane board so notoriously short-lived, but a BS board so awesome if they both work by membrane?

[rdjack21]

im serious though, i dont think brown is really significantly louder than topre

I agree if you don't bottom them out. Once you start bottoming them out though the brown is louder but not by allot.

also, why is a membrane board so notoriously short-lived, but a BS board so awesome if they both work by membrane?

Good rubber domes are not short lived think Lifetime warranty KeyTronics keyboards I have one laying around here that I've had since the early 90's and it still feels the same as the day I got it. The domes are good and thick and made from good rubber. But I don't use it much any more because I prefer a board that you don't have to bottom out with some force to make the key register.  

The problem is the cheap junk ones. In those if you ever take one apart (I have) the domes look more like a pyramid instead of a dome and are made of cheap and very thin rubber. So after a fair amount of use the thin wall rubber just breaks and there goes your board. I guess I should take one of my junk HP boards apart and take some pictures so you can see what I mean but the rubber is really very thin but because of the shape of the dome you have to really force it to collapse.

Then you really have to also go into the overall build quality of the boards as well. I'm sure I don't have to explain this part though.

[AndrewZorn]

okay, makes sense.

also, maybe my topre = brown noise opinion is because i am comparing bottomed-out topre to not-bottomed-out brown noises.  then again, that's only fair, as it's a common problem.

[wordfool]

In your Original Post you said you needed a quieter keyboard.   I'm not sure if it's an office mate or baby or whatever but if it's baby quiet, quiet, quiet you need it's Topre baby!   Or buy somebody some headphones.

Well, I went back to those original requirements (before my brain started wandering and wallet started flapping) and decided to let the person most affected decided -- my long-suffering gf who I'll be trying to not wake up.

I played her two different sets of Filco Brown and Realforce Topre clips (one set from youtube and one yours). The decision, ladies and gentlemen, was unanimous -- TOPRE WINS!

She said the Filco brown sounded like a "bunch of rats knawing at something". Oh, and I still haven't told her how much the Topre costs. Not sure I ever will. So now I'll have the quietest and loudest keyboards.

Next question is when will the Realforce 87U be back in stock at elite? And will it be more expensive than the 104?

[AndrewZorn]

alright.  i just got out my filco brown, just for you, to test what i had typed out and erased.

first of all, i dont think comparing audio clips is valid for VOLUME.  type of sound, maybe, sort of, but not volume.

im sitting here with my HHKB and filco.  everything i have typed in this post with my HHKB i am typing on the disconnected filco, after each sentence.

im telling you, the noise level is not really comparable.  the topre switches emit a lower, more unique sound... like wooden sticks clacking together.  when i bottom out, just a very quiet 'thud'.  supposedly a lot of the topre sound comes from the usually-POM keycaps, and i believe it, they have a great deal of influence on the feel.

now for the brown.  a much 'lighter' sound, but not to say it is 'sharper'.  just has much more of a 'typewriter' sound to it.  sounds a lot more 'mechanical'.  when alternating keyboards typing a part down below, i guessed that it sounds more like rain on a rooftop.  when you bottom them out, you get a second noise with each keypress, but it much quieter and more subdued than the first.  when i type fast it sounds more rhythmic, and less like many individual sounds like the topre does.  the exception to this rhythm is the spacebar.  though the topre spacebar is louder than the rest of the keys, it is also a deeper note.  the brown (at least, on my filco remember) is a louder, sharper noise that can be picked out from the rest, as if you can hear when each word starts and ends.  i feel like a lot of this is due to the relatively thin, flimsy plastic of the filco keys, like it is rattling under my thumb, so maybe it is something that can be trained to be reduced.

not trying to sway you either way, but if pure silence is all you are looking for, i dont think the topre is really offering anything more for twice the price.  i know you are using the audio clips to try to gauge it, but i wouldnt really trust those as a real comparison.  not that you should trust me either.  but realistically i think a quiet rubber dome (my G15, for example) is quieter than either.

and yes, this comes from a topre bottom-outer (though i dont think i do it every single stroke, lately, but it is certainly not due to feeling any sort of 'bump'), and a gifted soul that can not bottom out the browns... but again, i am not the only person to have these tendencies.

EDIT and dont feel too bad, my search for the one and only keyboard that was quiet and not clickety-clackety went on for a lot longer.  and now i actually own clicky keyboards.  not sure if i like them yet, though.

[wordfool]

Thanks for the noise test... struck me from all the audio clips that the filco does have a more mechanical sound, like a ratatatatat, versus the muffled claking of the topre, which makes sense because one is purely mechanical and one has a layer of rubber to muffle the mechanics.

Ripster's audio clips seem to be all the same recording volume and setup, and that was what convinced me that the topre is a less intrusive sound... like you said, not necessarily much quieter but less sharp and intrusive (for want of a better term).

[Shad0w]

Anyone had any experience with the Thanko Silent Keyboard EX? I have seen some bloggers commenting about it. It's supposed to be near silent.


Thank you

[rdjack21]

Next question is when will the Realforce 87U be back in stock at elite? And will it be more expensive than the 104?

Not sure when the 87U will be back in stock but the 87U has consistently been more expensive than the 103 that is currently in stock. Sorry I forget what the last price was but it was around $244 I think. I think he put the TBA price on it now because the USD has been droping in value against the yen so he may not know what the board will end up costing him until it ships and he is charged.

If you want a good estimate as to when it will come back into stock send EliteKeyboards a email to the sales email address they are really good about letting you know this stuff if you ask. But the question will be can they get more of them the 87U was a limited production run.

[rdjack21]

alright.  i just got out my filco brown, just for you, to test what i had typed out and erased.

first of all, i dont think comparing audio clips is valid for VOLUME.  type of sound, maybe, sort of, but not volume.

im sitting here with my HHKB and filco.  everything i have typed in this post with my HHKB i am typing on the disconnected filco, after each sentence.

That says allot right there. You actually use the HHKB Pro while the brown cherry is in the box

That to me is really why the Topre boards are worth the money. I use it every day because for me at least it is the best keyboard. Yea I have other boards but when I want to code and or do allot of typing it is going to be on the Topre. If I want something a little different then I plug in the BS board and use it for a hour or so then the Topre goes back on. I mean the Topre was designed for typing with out stress or it really getting in your way. The Topre patent is actually a pretty good read as to what they where trying to achieve and I really do think they got it right.

[maxlugar]

Well, I went back to those original requirements (before my brain started wandering and wallet started flapping) and decided to let the person most affected decided -- my long-suffering gf who I'll be trying to not wake up.

I played her two different sets of Filco Brown and Realforce Topre clips (one set from youtube and one yours). The decision, ladies and gentlemen, was unanimous -- TOPRE WINS!

She said the Filco brown sounded like a "bunch of rats knawing at something". Oh, and I still haven't told her how much the Topre costs. Not sure I ever will. So now I'll have the quietest and loudest keyboards.

Next question is when will the Realforce 87U be back in stock at elite? And will it be more expensive than the 104?

If you've definitely been persuaded to spend the big coin and get a Topre keyboard, get either a HHKB Pro 2 along with the Realforce 23UB number pad or Realforce 87U.  The HHKB is an outstanding keyboard with an unbeatable form factor and mappable keys.  Same goes for the 87U.  They sound much better than Cherry Brown boards because of the soft landing of the keys when bottoming out.  Some say they are able to type without bottoming out, but it's impossible for me.  When you need to use a number pad, the Realforce 23UB plugs into one of the USB ports on the HHKB Pro 2 and pairs nicely cosmetically i.e. they look like they match.

If you don't go with the HHKB Pro, I would wait for the Topre Realforce 87U.  This is another awesome keyboard - extremely comfortable to type on for long periods of time and generally pretty quiet.  I would get the Realforce 23UB also because it sounds like there are times that you need to have a dedicated 10-key.  I pull out my 23UB when it's needed and stash it when I don't.  

If you go this route, be prepared to part with some signficant $$$.  The new price for the Realforce 87U has not been announced but I'll bet it will be somewhere around $275 or $280.  EliteKeyboards.com slightly lowered the price of the 23U keypad from $128 to $122 - still very pricey, but IMO, worth every dime.

Note, the Topre boards are relatively quiet, but not as quiet as a typical cheap rubber dome keyboards.  You have to remember that these are really hybrid keyboards that use a mechanical slider for each individual switch. They are definitley quieter than buckling spring and Cherry Blue keyboards, but the key presses are not silent, especially the infamous "thunk" of the space bar.  Still, my family is able to sleep soundly while I pound away late into the night on my HHKB or 87U.

[wordfool]

I would love to hold out for a Realforce 87U (or get an HHKB), but either of those plus the keypad combined will be at least 50% more than the 104U and I'm already waaay over budget  (I budgeted $150 for a new keyboard... heh heh). Maybe next year I'll treat myself to one of the next batch of cherry blue tenkeyless Filco boards that I can alternate with my M13 as the noisy "daytime" user.

[rdjack21]

That is what the Model M space saver is for in my line up. One of the Customizer's have been confiscated by my son. The other is a backup.

[ch_123]

I would love to hold out for a Realforce 87U (or get an HHKB), but either of those plus the keypad combined will be at least 50% more than the 104U and I'm already waaay over budget  (I budgeted $150 for a new keyboard... heh heh). Maybe next year I'll treat myself to one of the next batch of cherry blue tenkeyless Filco boards that I can alternate with my M13 as the noisy "daytime" user.

Just bare in mind that Blues, while quieter than Buckling Springs, are still quite loud and make a less pleasant noise than the BS.

Still a great keyboard though.

[patrickgeekhack]

alright.  i just got out my filco brown, just for you, to test what i had typed out and erased.

first of all, i dont think comparing audio clips is valid for VOLUME.  type of sound, maybe, sort of, but not volume.

I agree. I have never heard an audio clip sample that matches exactly the sound I hear when I'm actually typing on the keyboard. The audio clips may give you an idea of what it may sound like, but I doubt it will be 100% accurate.

[patrickgeekhack]

So with the help of all you folks here I've narrowed it down to a Brown Cherry keyboard (Filco) or a Topre Realforce. What I'm trying to decide is which might be better suited to my typing style. It sounds like they both need about the same force to register a keypress, but I'm worried that because this force is considerably less than required on my M13 I'll end up craving some form -- any form -- of tactile feedback. Which of them is gonna give me more feedback, or is the feedback from each so different that it's hard to compare?

This is a question for which you may never find the answer. While both need about the same force to register, the feel is different. At the beginning, I think the Filco will give more feedback, but with time you'll learn to notice the feedback of the Topre which is more subtle I think. But like I said in another thread, if you have never tried neither of these two and can afford it, then maybe you should get both simply because they are different. Most of the time, the more opinions you get will only make it more difficult to make a decision, been there, done that :-)

[didjamatic]

I've been going back and forth between the 2.  They are definitely my 2 favs, but I like each of them for different reasons.  I think I might just keep swapping between the 2, but may use only Topre at home where quiet is more important.