mouse with lowforce buttons

[e306]

hey.

i have serious RSI-problems in my fingers from too much mouse-clicking. (my job is basically clicking for 8 house per day - 20.000 clicks per day)

i own the evoluent vertical mouse, contour-mouse and the razer deathadder.

is there any kind of mouse with extra lowforce buttons?

[timw4mail]

What is it that you do that requires so much mouse-clicking?

[itlnstln]

I don't have any suggestions for my suggestion, but have you looked into alternative pointing devices (like trackballs, trackpads, etc.)?  There my be something out there that might be better.  I think that a trackpad might work since you just tap the pad to make a click.

[itlnstln]

Boy, I did RipOmeter measurements of the Contour and Evoluent in my review (click on link in my sig) and was impressed they were lower than normal.
 
Don't know of any lower.

This.  Really, mouse buttons are pretty low-force as it is.  Occasionally, I have clicked buttons accidently by resting my fingers on them.  If they were any lighter, I would be afraid that they would be too sensitive.

[e306]

What is it that you do that requires so much mouse-clicking?

i play online-poker professionally. 24 tables at once.
(and no, i'm not a degenerate gambler. i have a college degree in math and know what i'm doing)

I don't have any suggestions for my suggestion, but have you looked into alternative pointing devices (like trackballs, trackpads, etc.)?  There my be something out there that might be better.  I think that a trackpad might work since you just tap the pad to make a click.

i bought the kensington expert & kensington slimblade trackball. didnt change much over the mouse. the clicking-pain changed to a sore feeling in the joints from all the ball-twisting and my thumb started to hurt from all the thumb-clicking.

i have a trackpad on my dell-notebook and hate it. compared to a mouse its extremely inaccurate and slow. the tap-clicking works about 60% of the time. are there better usb-trackpads out there that i could try?

money is not an issue. i would pay 500$ for a mouse that solves my pain-problems. (yes, i already saw 2 doctors, but they couldnt help much)

[AndrewZorn]

my job is basically clicking for 8 house per day - 20.000 clicks per day

sounds like one of the internet ad-clicking 'jobs'

[itlnstln]

You might try this.  I think someone here said it works pretty well, but I am not sure of too many people that have one.  It might be worth a shot.

[itlnstln]

sounds like one of the internet ad-clicking 'jobs'

If I ever did that, I would have a special rig quarrantined from the rest of my PCs due to all the computer VD you would get.

[AndrewZorn]

and i would probably spend more time figuring out how to automate the thing instead of literally clicking ads all day

[AndrewZorn]

why not a touch screen
not as easy
but certainly more varied motion
might be more interesting

i did the whole online poker thing once
made money
then US locks down all foreign money services
money frozen

[e306]

Boy, I did RipOmeter measurements of the Contour and Evoluent in my review (click on link in my sig) and was impressed they were lower than normal.

Don't know of any lower.

according to Tim Tyler, the contour mouse has an activation force of 48g - and he modified it to 12g.

i currently have a razer mamba sitting next to the contour and its buttons are easier to click. but still not what i'm searching for.

[e306]

why not a touch screen
not as easy
but certainly more varied motion
might be more interesting

i did the whole online poker thing once
made money
then US locks down all foreign money services
money frozen

i will think about the touchscreen-option.
problem is: i'm currently working on two 30inch screens for all the poker tables. the largest touchscreens i found are 24" and cost over 2000$.
playing on such "small" monitors would be a mayor setback for me.

thank you for your suggestions so far.

andrew: there are still ways to get your money in the US. fortunately i live in europe.

[D-EJ915]

one thing you could do is extend the length of the mouse buttons and press them farther out which would lessen the force required to push the button down (lever concept)

While I think razer mice are pieces of **** as far as durability goes, if you only plan to keep it on your desk and not move it should be fine lol.  The diamondback had pretty easy to press buttons compared to my other mice.

Also, the original razer boomslang mouse had the easiest to press buttons of any mouse I've ever used, ever.  You might try to pick up one of those.

[itlnstln]

one thing you could do is extend the length of the mouse buttons and press them farther out which would lessen the force required to push the button down (lever concept)

While a little awkward, I tried pressing the top edge of the mouse button, and it felt a little easier to press than right in the middle.

[e306]

Also, the original razer boomslang mouse had the easiest to press buttons of any mouse I've ever used, ever.  You might try to pick up one of those.

i dont care if a 50$ mouse breaks after 4 month. its an essential tool for my job, so i would just buy a new one.

did you ever use the razer mamba or deathadder?
can you compare the clickforce of deathadder/mamba to the boomslang?

[e306]

Apple touchpad mouse (or whatever it is named).

do you mean the macbook-touchpad or the new apple magic mouse?

the magic mouse has one huge button, right? is it easy to click?
or can you click by tapping the mouse-surface?

[itlnstln]

I think you can click by tapping the surface.  I am not sure, but I think you have to have a Mac to use it.  I'm not sure what platform you are using.

[timw4mail]

I think you can click by tapping the surface.  I am not sure, but I think you have to have a Mac to use it.  I'm not sure what platform you are using.

I've yet to see a peripheral from Apple (since they moved to USB) that doesn't work on Windows too.

[e306]

i'm using windows.
googling "magic mouse windows" says "basic stuff works with windows. finger-gestures do not"
but that would be ok. i just want to left&rightclick.


did anybody try the mouse? can i rest my fingers on the surface while not clicking?
unfortunately i dont have an apple store around here.

[hyperlinked]

e306, my first thought is that I really don't know if there's anything conventional you can try that will allow you to continue putting in 20K clicks a day without consequences. I'm sure there are some people on this planet who could get away with that kind of overuse, but my money says that most people will wreck their hands doing that. Your strategy may have to involve more than just equipment. Which joints are bothering you?

I'm sure you've already tried some pretty impressive mice so the answer may not be found with equipment alone. An Apple mouse might be something else to try. I don't know how their current multi-touch mouse works, but the one that preceeded it didn't have discrete buttons and instead you pressed down on the whole mouse with your finger. That would result in a fairly high actuation force, but it opens up the potential of resting your hand high on the mouse and clicking in part with palm force. That would only be beneficial if your fingers hurt. Palming it might not help at all if your wrists are inflammed.

A lot of the Razer mice have big fat buttons that you can use in a similar way. You can rest your hand high on it and push a left button with your thumb and index finger together. You'll need to have an armrest if you're going to use a mouse as a hand rest though or you'll be putting way too much strain on your wrist simply by putting it on the mouse for that long.

Other possibilities are foot pedals or activating a click lock on your computer so that if you need to click-hold-drag, you can click and drag without the hold. The holding part can be extra hard on your tendons.

Yet another possibility is getting a mouse with one big button that you can press with more than one finger at a time.

[itlnstln]

It may just be that you might have to rotate a variety of pointing devices so you don't perform the same motion day after day.  That way, you use slightly different motions and joints allowing others to rest/heal.

[itlnstln]

I bet your setup looks pretty cool, ripster.  I just put it together that you have a black trackball with a red ball and red auxillary buttons, a black Topre with a red Esc key, and a black PC case with red lights.  Nice color coordination you have there.

[AndrewZorn]

the first thing i thought of was setting a key on the keyboard to click, but that was before i learned what he actually did, and forgot the idea.  so yeah, now that it's clicking for poker, why not just use left hand on a key?

[hyperlinked]

one thing you could do is extend the length of the mouse buttons and press them farther out which would lessen the force required to push the button down (lever concept)

No it wouldn't. The point of force for clicking with a mostly straight finger would be from a flexor muscle at the base of the finger. It would actually be a very very short lever from the hand's perspective because the fulcrum and the point of force is almost in the exact same spot. If you were the mouse button trying to move the hand, it would be a fantastic lever though.

[e306]

[...] Which joints are bothering you? [...]

index & middle finger, the first joint (near the fingertip) and the second one.

i know that i can't continue as i did - so i'm searching for the best painfree, healty, ergonomic, fast and usable alternatives.

i already ordered pretty much hardware to change the work at the computer, but so far nothing really convinced me.

RSI is so depressing :-/

[e306]

i just watched a few apple magic mouse reviews on youtube and the mouse has to be clicked! you cannot click by just tapping on the surface!

[itlnstln]

Well, that's silly.  I don't know what to tell you other than to look at foot pedals or ripster's Sanwas.  Have you tried a stylus?

[e306]

speaking of foot-pedals... do you have to actively hold your foot up, to not push down the pedals, or can you comfortably rest your feet on the pedals? do your feet hurt after a while?

[Shuki]

The old razer diamondback had very soft buttons, but it's not a very ergonomic shape so if you have rsi it probably wouldn't help.

[hyperlinked]

The old razer diamondback had very soft buttons, but it's not a very ergonomic shape so if you have rsi it probably wouldn't help.

It all depends on how you use it. Razer diamondbacks are perfect mice for claw grip users like me because we need the mouse to be low profile so that we can move it with fingertips instead of the wrist. Also, not all RSI is the same. If e306 is actually having joint pain as opposed to soft tissue pain, arthritis can be a factor.

[hyperlinked]

index & middle finger, the first joint (near the fingertip) and the second one.

i know that i can't continue as i did - so i'm searching for the best painfree, healty, ergonomic, fast and usable alternatives.

i already ordered pretty much hardware to change the work at the computer, but so far nothing really convinced me.

RSI is so depressing :-/

If it's actually your joints themselves that are hurting you can try taping your index and middle fingers together if you don't need to type. Having these two fingers stuck to each other will cause some obvious typing issues.

You don't need to bind the fingers together completely. Just put a strip of athletic tape or any fabric based tape between the first and second joints so that you still have a little flex left in the joints.

If you need to right click a lot though, this may cause problems.

The other thing is that even if this does help, doing this long term may wear out other parts of your hand. This is why you might not have any one solution to your problem. Even if something works, you might have to cycle through different things that work to give different parts of your hand a break. Every technique will leave you prone to a different sort of overuse because overuse is overuse.

By the way, if you don't mind me asking, what kind of doctors did you go see? Did you see an occupational therapist by any chance?

[lmnop]

I hate to sound like captain obvious but I think it's easier if he just purchases some new low force Omron switches they make ones as low as 0.5 CN. that way he can keep his mouse and feel good he modified it

[Shuki]

It all depends on how you use it. Razer diamondbacks are perfect mice for claw grip users like me because we need the mouse to be low profile so that we can move it with fingertips instead of the wrist. Also, not all RSI is the same. If e306 is actually having joint pain as opposed to soft tissue pain, arthritis can be a factor.

Still no matter if you like the shape or not they cannot be called ergonomic as claw gripping your mouse is obviously going to make you more prone to RSI than a mouse where your hand can rest on it.

I use a diamondback because the shape is easy to grip and so easy to control. A pencil for example isn't very ergonomic, but the it allows you to grip it in a way which gives you a lot of control.

[hyperlinked]

Still no matter if you like the shape or not they cannot be called ergonomic as claw gripping your mouse is obviously going to make you more prone to RSI than a mouse where your hand can rest on it.

Ergonomics is a controversial field. I speak as a former physiotherapist/physical therapist. Ergonomics does not mean something is sculpted so you can rest your bones on it. It refers to the science of fitting the environment to the person to allow for the most natural and safe interface with tools, objects, etc.

In general, something that is comfortable and holds your joints at natural resting positions is good, but when that object is needed for an active task, what is the most comfortable at rest may not be the most practical in action. That is one of the reasons why ergonomics is controversial.

Is an ergonomic split keyboard good for everyone. Not a chance. Just ask around here. Works great for some people and actually increases pain for other people (myself included). It all depends on the task at hand, the way you do that task, and your body.

A claw hand grip might not be as extreme as it might sound. It simply means you tend to hold your mouse with bent fingers instead of resting your entire hand across the mouse.  

For me personally, a lot of the "ergo" mice are horrible. It might have something to do with the size of my hands and the length of my fingers. I have difficulty holding down the left click buttons on my nicely sculpted Logitech MX mouse at end of a long day. It could also just be that mouse. I suspect with a slight change in the angle of the button, it would solve my problems with it.

I use a diamondback because the shape is easy to grip and so easy to control. A pencil for example isn't very ergonomic, but the it allows you to grip it in a way which gives you a lot of control.

You lost me here. If it's easy to grip and control, what's so bad about it? I actually wouldn't classify a pencil as an easy to grip item. When you're young, they spend a lot of hours training you how to hold your writing instruments. I don't remember going through boot camp for mouse gripping.

[lowpoly]

Autohotkey should be able to convert any keyboard button into a mouse button.

[lmnop]

I have a feeling i'm going to have to sell my soul to purchase a Cherry 5000.

anybody with a Cherry 5000 want a italian mail order bride?

[lmnop]

in that case I agree lol

[hyperlinked]

anybody with a Cherry 5000 want a italian mail order bride?

Aren't mail order brides usually from beat down countries?

[itlnstln]

Burlesque-oni?  That guy's a douchebag.
 
On the other hand, I can't remember an Italian head-of-state who wasn't.

[lmnop]

Ugh, this is NOT the way I want to start my morning.

And lmnop - thanks for the deb link.   I had forgotten I hadn't seen Dexter Season 3 - moved it to the top of Netflix.

welcome doll.

ever heard of a dvd burner, usenet and region hacks?

[itlnstln]

Netflix is better. I got my money's worth many times over from them. You get the DVDs/Blurays quick and on the original media. No pixellated, compression-y stuff there. That, and the streaming feature is almost worth the price of admission alone. You know, when you want the pixellated, compression-y stuff... now.
 
Ripster and I are quality snobs when it comes to this sort of thing.

[lmnop]

I have a lot of hacked accounts on usenet so it doesn't cost me a cent. never had a problem with the quality.

[itlnstln]

Helps to have two subwoofers though.

That's my next upgrade. I need to even out the bass response in the theater (stupid nodes).  Do you stack yours, or put them in completely different locations?  The latter sounds more effective to me.

[itlnstln]

Two locations. Unlike the AudioPhools in my testing I can definite locate a subwoofer in the field.
 
Two 12" subwoofers >>>> One 15" IMHO

I agree.  That's why I want two (other than nodes); I seem to be able to locate my sub no matter where I put it, level match, or eq it. For subs, 2 is always better than one.  I like 12" subs better, because they seem to be a little better for music.  15" subs are nice for movies when you need a lot of low SPL, but I find them a tad slow for music.  That said, I am thinking about getting a pair of these as they have a package deal of 2/$998.

[itlnstln]

Definitely.  I used to do DIY audio all the time (that would be my dream job if I were independently wealthy).  Your talking about the Rythmik Audio CI series, right?  If that's the case, I might just do that, and spend a weekend or two builiding the enclosures.

[ricercar]

is there any kind of mouse with extra lowforce buttons?

The Monster Gecko Pistol Mouse (lots of pics on page 2 of the review) is what I use to satisfy all the following criteria:

• Low force buttons (always pressing by accident at first)
• Vertical mouse
• left or right hand (symmetrical)
• three button
• Low price

Monster Gecko is out of business, so you can find the Pistol Mouse for as low as $8 shipped if you Google well. Why pay $80 for a vertical mouse? Why pay $70 for a left hand mouse?



However, this is a real problem:

One bad thing we noticed about the trigger is that it seems to be �sticky.� When you pull it, it doesn't actually register until you pull it past its first stopping point, similar to the mechanism found on most digital cameras where the picture isn't taken until you push it down fully after it focuses.

I had to take a week or more to get used to this before I could use the device as a daily driver. But now I own two, one for home, and one for the workplace. (Yes, there are lots of comments about having a gun at the office.)

Off topic again...

I have one DIY and one of the glossy ones.... Plus it was a hell of a challenge to build.

I used to design and build loudspeaker cabinets for sale. Put myself through grad school that way... well, one summer with one sale. Used to buy a really fine speaker pair each time I designed something that sounded just as good. Then I quit the audiophool scene (great word, ripster) for spending all disposable income on computers.

Then in '98 my wife brought home a pair of Accoustat electrostatic panels & dynamic subwoofer from her boss's garage. (He thought one was blown, but it turned out one of his amp channels had blown instead. His jaw hit the ground when he heard they both worked fine with a high-current amp.) Then my wife started critiquing commercial CD recordings like she'd critique my live recordings, and I knew I wouldn't be able to match electrostatic reproduction without building an electrostatic panel of my own... And home made ribbon speakers were hard enough!

Then one day she was looking at the Acoustat towers said "surround sound" with a quaver in her voice. We now have Accoustat 1+1 mains & center, with 2+2 surrounds. [/SIZE]