HHKB Pro 2 vs Realforce 87u 45/55g

[Madeupword]

UPDATE: Purchased the HHKB Pro 2. Was able to enter the UEFI BIOS.

Hello! Which would be more judicious choice for Adobe suite, coding, typing and minimal gaming usage?

Is it true that the HHKB Pro 2 cannot be used to enter the UEFI BIOS as a consequence of the built-in USB hub?

Is it true that the Realforce 87u cannot be used to wake a Mac from sleep?

I am favouring the HHKB Pro 2 for its intuitive and alluring design. It is a pity that the uniformed 45g 87u is exclusive to EliteKeyboards and in dark grey.

Looking forward to your thoughts. Thank you and stay safe!

[Hypersphere]

My own favorite is the HHKB Pro 2 because of its 60% form factor and layout. I like the layout so well that I remap my other keyboards to emulate the HHKB.

If you use lots of keyboard shortcuts involving F-keys along with other modifiers, this might provide difficult with the HHKB. I use such combinations very little, and so this is not a limitation for me.

I think it is true that the RF87U will not wake a Mac from sleep. Regarding entering BIOS, I have been able to do this with a HHKB, but YMMV.

I have both the HHKB and the RF87UB45. I like the black case and modifiers on the RF, but I like to have legible alpha numeric keys, so I put another set of these on the RF.

Other things to consider: the swtiches in the HHKB are case-mounted and those in the RF are plate-mounted. Some people prefer the more solid sound and feel of the plate-mounted switches; others like the springier feel of the case-mounted switches.

[Vittra]

Is it true that the HHKB Pro 2 cannot be used to enter the UEFI BIOS as a consequence of the built-in USB hub?

That probably depends on if CSM (Compatibility Support Module) is enabled or disabled, as well as what USB port it's plugged into. Once I get mine I can report back with results on a Z170 board (Maximus VIII Gene).

[Madeupword]

My own favorite is the HHKB Pro 2 because of its 60% form factor and layout. I like the layout so well that I remap my other keyboards to emulate the HHKB.

If you use lots of keyboard shortcuts involving F-keys along with other modifiers, this might provide difficult with the HHKB. I use such combinations very little, and so this is not a limitation for me.

I think it is true that the RF87U will not wake a Mac from sleep. Regarding entering BIOS, I have been able to do this with a HHKB, but YMMV.

I have both the HHKB and the RF87UB45. I like the black case and modifiers on the RF, but I like to have legible alpha numeric keys, so I put another set of these on the RF.

Other things to consider: the swtiches in the HHKB are case-mounted and those in the RF are plate-mounted. Some people prefer the more solid sound and feel of the plate-mounted switches; others like the springier feel of the case-mounted switches.

Yes, legibility is very important. While black on dark grey certainly exudes elegance amidst its contemporary design, white remains sophisticated, unobtrusive and highly functional. I am also impressed by its layout. What seem daunting at first is actually rather intuitive. Often used keys, such as Control and Backspace(Delete) are ever more accessible. The arrow keys which requires the pinky on the Fn key, may provide better stability and support akin to a tripod.

How is the USB plug? Some reviews have cited the paltry effort to securing it, at least compared to Cooler Master's Novatouch TKL. Likwise, how often does cable play a part in longevity? One can always replace the removable USB cable on the HHKB, while the Realforce spots a built-in cable.

Is it true that the HHKB Pro 2 cannot be used to enter the UEFI BIOS as a consequence of the built-in USB hub?

That probably depends on if CSM (Compatibility Support Module) is enabled or disabled, as well as what USB port it's plugged into. Once I get mine I can report back with results on a Z170 board (Maximus VIII Gene).

Looking forward to it! Were you in a dilemma between a HHKB and Realforce too?

I reckon more than anything, these are fine keyboards and that it is their negatives that set them apart.

Appreciate the prompt responses and anticipating even more. Thank you so much!

[Vittra]

I was, yes, but I'm sure I'll end up with a Realforce 55G in the future anyway.

[derb2k2]

just the name "RealForce" is epic 

But HHKB rules my life.

[Madeupword]

Damn it, you lads are making the decision harder!

Were there any outstanding reviews that swerve your direction towards either the HHKB or Realforce?

With the lack of a white uniformed-45g 87u, how is the uniformed-55g against the HHKB Pro 2? From what I've gathered, the 55g feels better, while the 45g on HHKB provides better comfort on long laps.

[Hypersphere]

You might take a look at a review that I wrote some time ago about my HHKB conversion experience:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48804.0

[Macsmasher]

I have three RF87Us and an HHKB Pro 2. For coding, I prefer the 87U. For everyday computing, I enjoy the HHKB. You will eventually have to get both. It's inevitable once you drink the Topre kool-aid.

[keshley]

One of each is the answer:

[Madeupword]

Stop it, you guys are killing me. So in the event I am to have both in my lifetime, which one should I go with first?

Keyword, "first". As slowly but surely, I'm somehow sensing I'll have both in time to come. Damn it!

@keshley What keycaps are those, especially the ones on the Realforce? Damn!

[keshley]

@keshley What keycaps are those, especially the ones on the Realforce? Damn!

My HHKB is a bit unique... Novatouch sliders so I could put Round 5 SA caps on it.

The Realforce has Hi-Pro caps on it from a Realforce 104UG.

I'd say get whichever form factor suits you the most right now. I bought the HHKB first, as I was in need of a board that I could also toss in my bag. I rather like 60% boards in general though, so it frequently ends up being my 'main' board for a week or two here and there too.

[eternalmetal]

At one point in time I considered this decision as well.  I also was allured by the look of the HHKB vs the rather average looking RF, and was very close to pulling the trigger.  What made me eventually decide on the 55g RF was the following: the HHKB does not have a dedicated nav cluster and number keys, of which I use all the time when browsing the net.  The RF is heavier and has better feet that do not move around on a desktop as much (portability is irrelevant for me since I keep my keyboard in front of one computer).  The RF comes available with the heavier 55g switch, that I decided would suit my typing preferences more (and in hindsight I still agree with this judgment despite not yet trying 45g topre). 

[Bucake]

TLDR: HHKB + hasu's controller (to make it fully programmable) is my recommendation

the HHKB is a great all-around, so that's my recommendation if you want only one, or at least a first.
why?
size is a plus, weight is a plus when taking it with you, there's the option to make it fully programmable (with hasu's controller),
there's blank caps as an option, there's type-s as an option, 45g is likely not too heavy or too light.

pros of RF:
has F-row to make life easy, has superior typing-experience (smoother switches), comes in 55g or variable or 45g, weight is a plus when stationary.

to consider:
RF: keycaps on the white versions of the RF have very little texture, legends of the RF are inconsistent and it looks dumb, AFAIK there's no readily-available option to make it programmable, type-s is only available for variable keyboards.
HHKB: it's louder, the stock layout is not great, type-s is only available for white versions.

[toxicdrift]

i have never used Topre before, but as a first board, i just joined the last drop for a white 87U 55g. (jan shipping)
only mech i ever had was a cm rapid-i browns and i got the realforce on a friends suggestion.

[Madeupword]

At one point in time I considered this decision as well.  I also was allured by the look of the HHKB vs the rather average looking RF, and was very close to pulling the trigger.  What made me eventually decide on the 55g RF was the following: the HHKB does not have a dedicated nav cluster and number keys, of which I use all the time when browsing the net.  The RF is heavier and has better feet that do not move around on a desktop as much (portability is irrelevant for me since I keep my keyboard in front of one computer).  The RF comes available with the heavier 55g switch, that I decided would suit my typing preferences more (and in hindsight I still agree with this judgment despite not yet trying 45g topre). 

Could you describe your usage of the arrow keys and numpad and why the HHKB wouldn't work (in your case)? I agree with your take on the lack of mobility for the RF. I recall several reviews noting the outstanding feet placement. As mentioned earlier, I've gathered the 55g feels better, while the 45g on HHKB provides better comfort on long laps. But I wonder if this is closer to an axiom or more of an opinion.

TLDR: HHKB + hasu's controller (to make it fully programmable) is my recommendation

the HHKB is a great all-around, so that's my recommendation if you want only one, or at least a first.
why?
size is a plus, weight is a plus when taking it with you, there's the option to make it fully programmable (with hasu's controller),
there's blank caps as an option, there's type-s as an option, 45g is likely not too heavy or too light.

pros of RF:
has F-row to make life easy, has superior typing-experience (smoother switches), comes in 55g or variable or 45g, weight is a plus when stationary.

to consider:
RF: keycaps on the white versions of the RF have very little texture, legends of the RF are inconsistent and it looks dumb, AFAIK there's no readily-available option to make it programmable, type-s is only available for variable keyboards.
HHKB: it's louder, the stock layout is not great, type-s is only available for white versions.

Wow, thank you for picking up on those considerations. Especially the RF's keycap texture and legends inconsistency. The HHKB just looks clean.

Would I be correct to describe the RF as being higher in quality thus having smoother switches resulting in smoother strokes, while the HHKB as having a more intuitive layout.

i have never used Topre before, but as a first board, i just joined the last drop for a white 87U 55g. (jan shipping)
only mech i ever had was a cm rapid-i browns and i got the realforce on a friends suggestion.

"The last drop" meaning Massdrop? I'm also sourcing out the best way to purchase either keyboards. Being based in Asia, it's either EliteKeyboards/Massdrop-equiv. or Amazon Japan.

What are the probability of receiving an DOA keyboard? Likewise, I am definitely interested in the purchasing process.

Looking forward to more responses. You guys are awesome!

[Polymer]

Would I be correct to describe the RF as being higher in quality thus having smoother switches resulting in smoother strokes, while the HHKB as having a more intuitive layout.

No..It isn't higher quality....the difference is the feel of the stroke because it uses a plate vs. the switch being part of the case...Some people feel this makes it smoother, I don't really think of it like that at all, it just changes the feel.

The HHKB has a far more organic or warmer feel to it...whether or not you prefer that will be purely personal preference. 

Both are high quality boards...

The HHKB layout isn't really that intuitive..the backspace and ctrl placements are brilliant...the FN layer stuff is ok...easy enough to get used to but I'm not sure that would be my first choice...but the main reason people can't deal w/ the HHKB is the arrow key layout...whereas these same people can go to a poker no prob..

[Bucake]

the difference is the feel of the stroke because it uses a plate vs. the switch being part of the case...Some people feel this makes it smoother, I don't really think of it like that at all, it just changes the feel.

there is a clear difference between the strokes.
relative to the RF, the strokes of the HHKB switches are gritty.
you can easily test this by also pushing against a key horizontally, while pushing it down.
this has absolutely nothing to do with the plate.

Would I be correct to describe the RF as being higher in quality thus having smoother switches resulting in smoother strokes, while the HHKB as having a more intuitive layout.

the RF has smoother strokes, yes.

intuitive layout..? i wouldn't say so.
the layout HHKB is a bit off (from the usual) and thus you'd have to get used to it. (not a big deal, though.)
personally i think the backspace is great, but the Fn layer is not so great.

the layout of the RF is quite classic however, and you can't really go wrong with it..

to clarify, one doesn't necessarily feel better than the other; this is just a matter of preference.
(still, the RF switches are superior!)

lastly, if arrow-keys is a concern, a programmable HHKB destroys a RF 8-)
but if you're not interested in an aftermarket controller, the RF arrow-cluster is way more intuitive.

[Polymer]

there is a clear difference between the strokes.
relative to the RF, the strokes of the HHKB switches are gritty.
you can easily test this by also pushing against a key horizontally, while pushing it down.
this has absolutely nothing to do with the plate.

It most definitely is not.  Just did your test which only confirmed how incorrect your statement is.  They're almost identical that way.

If you look at how the switch is in there, it isn't possible one is more gritty than the other..the main mechanism is a plunger on top of a dome.

What is happening is you're hearing more and that sound makes you think it is gritty..it isn't...put some ear plugs in and try pressing them...

[Madeupword]

I apologise if I misled. I meant the overall construction of the RF is of higher quality to the HHKB. I believe this is a common theme in several comparisons found online. But as noted, both are outstanding boards.

@Bucake Would you still pick a plain HHKB sans Hasu's controller over the RF?

@Polymer Which keyboard(s) do you currently own and which keyboard would you recommend?

I am intrigued by the placement of Control & Backspace and the inclusion of media keys. Outside of the arrow keys, I do not foresee myself actively hitting the lesser used cursor and system command cluster, e.g. Page up, Page down, Home, Insert, Locks, SysRq/Prt Scn and Pause.

[keshley]

I apologise if I misled. I meant the overall construction of the RF is of higher quality to the HHKB. I believe this is a common theme in several comparisons found online. But as noted, both are outstanding boards.

@Bucake Would you still pick a plain HHKB sans Hasu's controller over the RF?

@Polymer Which keyboard(s) do you currently own and which keyboard would you recommend?

I am intrigued by the placement of Control & Backspace and the inclusion of media keys. Outside of the arrow keys, I do not foresee myself actively hitting the lesser used cursor and system command cluster, e.g. Page up, Page down, Home, Insert, Locks, SysRq/Prt Scn and Pause.

I don't buy the "Realforce higher quality" argument. They're both extremely solid boards and don't creak. I think what people equate to quality is just the heavier weight. And weight != quality, it just means its heavier. They're both ABS cases of a similar thickness.

They do feel different. The Realforce is more... precise, and the HHKB more organic as mentioned before. I like them both.

I don't like the default HHKB Fn layer, so I use hasu's controller on mine. It's ok for F row (as its Fn + number, like just about every other small keyboard), but navigation is a pain IMO. Thus, I almost immediately bought hasu's controller this time around. Hasu's controller is relatively inexpensive, so if you can afford it, I'd get it. And its a cinch to install.

For what its worth, if I couldn't program my HHKB, I'd likely prefer the 87u. But since I can, it's hard to pick a favorite.

[kekstee]

I went from the Poker X to the HHKB and acutally liked the HHKB Fn layer better.
Those Realforce are tempting, but idk. I'm currently using a full sized board and haven't touched my arrow keys or numblock all day.

The only thing I miss with my 60% boards are F-keys for Starcraft camera locations. :s

If I were to get a second Topre some day I'd have a really hard time choosing between a black HHKB or 87/88U for the added compatibility with programs that expect the usual key layout from time to time.

[eternalmetal]

At one point in time I considered this decision as well.  I also was allured by the look of the HHKB vs the rather average looking RF, and was very close to pulling the trigger.  What made me eventually decide on the 55g RF was the following: the HHKB does not have a dedicated nav cluster and number keys, of which I use all the time when browsing the net.  The RF is heavier and has better feet that do not move around on a desktop as much (portability is irrelevant for me since I keep my keyboard in front of one computer).  The RF comes available with the heavier 55g switch, that I decided would suit my typing preferences more (and in hindsight I still agree with this judgment despite not yet trying 45g topre). 

Could you describe your usage of the arrow keys and numpad and why the HHKB wouldn't work (in your case)? I agree with your take on the lack of mobility for the RF. I recall several reviews noting the outstanding feet placement. As mentioned earlier, I've gathered the 55g feels better, while the 45g on HHKB provides better comfort on long laps. But I wonder if this is closer to an axiom or more of an opinion.

Well, it's basically the argument than anyone uses when they prefer a TKL layout to a 60% one.  I use the delete key a lot when editing text, whether im typing a paper or a forum post.  I use the page up and page down keys often when navigating websites and to change between files in my media player.  I use the home and end keys to navigate to the top of websites and documents.  I use the arrow keys for navigating/reading on websites, for editing text, to adjust volume and navigate media files, etc.  While you can access all of these keys on the HHKB, you need to use an fn layer and press an extra key, which is something id rather not do when im using the computer casually.  If none of this bothers you, then by all means get the 60% board and save some space.

[Polymer]

@Polymer Which keyboard(s) do you currently own and which keyboard would you recommend?

I am intrigued by the placement of Control & Backspace and the inclusion of media keys. Outside of the arrow keys, I do not foresee myself actively hitting the lesser used cursor and system command cluster, e.g. Page up, Page down, Home, Insert, Locks, SysRq/Prt Scn and Pause.

I believe the media keys only work with a Mac.  The CTRL and Backspace placements are excellent. 

I've narrowed my Topre down to Variable and HHKB...

The variable is great for longer typing sessions..it probably isn't the most enjoyable keyboard as far as the overall feeling you get..but it is BY FAR the easiest on my hands and I probably use it more than any other boards I have (cherry, alps, other Topre). 

The HHKB I enjoy using more..but after using the variable it is a bit tiring..and as a result I use it less...I switch back and forth fairly regularly though...I think the overall enjoyment is greater with the HHKB...I just find that the RF is so easy on my hands that I know it is probably better to use longer term. 

If you have to get Topre and game, variable will SUCK..bad...I like variable purely for typing...

I've had uniform Topres other than the HHKB (660c, RF) and both were very good as well.....I've not tried the Novatouch or Type Heaven yet...

[Bucake]

@Bucake Would you still pick a plain HHKB sans Hasu's controller over the RF?

blindly, i would recommend the RF in that case.
but it really depends on how you will use your board, so you just have to weigh out the options..
is the Fn-layer of the HHKB a turn-off? +1 RF
will you carry it around a lot? +1 HHKB
do you use the F-keys a ton? +1 RF
do you use the arrow-cluster a ton? +1 RF
will you benefit from a smaller keyboard? +1 HHKB
do you want blank caps? +1 HHKB
etc, etc..

and don't forget to check out some audio clips; they sound very different and it changes the experience a lot

I believe the media keys only work with a Mac.  The CTRL and Backspace placements are excellent. 

yes, this is another consideration. if you're not a mac user, a bunch of your legends will be meaningless (this is why i like the blank caps so much).

Well, it's basically the argument than anyone uses when they prefer a TKL layout to a 60% one.  I use the delete key a lot when editing text, whether im typing a paper or a forum post.  I use the page up and page down keys often when navigating websites and to change between files in my media player.  I use the home and end keys to navigate to the top of websites and documents.  I use the arrow keys for navigating/reading on websites, for editing text, to adjust volume and navigate media files, etc.  While you can access all of these keys on the HHKB, you need to use an fn layer and press an extra key, which is something id rather not do when im using the computer casually.  If none of this bothers you, then by all means get the 60% board and save some space.

good examples!
if you're anything like eternalmetal and you use those kinds of keys a lot, the hhkb might be more frustrating than helpful in the end.
( hasu's controller fixes this, though! just throwing that out there.. )

[toxicdrift]

i have never used Topre before, but as a first board, i just joined the last drop for a white 87U 55g. (jan shipping)
only mech i ever had was a cm rapid-i browns and i got the realforce on a friends suggestion.

"The last drop" meaning Massdrop? I'm also sourcing out the best way to purchase either keyboards. Being based in Asia, it's either EliteKeyboards/Massdrop-equiv. or Amazon Japan.

What are the probability of receiving an DOA keyboard? Likewise, I am definitely interested in the purchasing process.

Looking forward to more responses. You guys are awesome!

Im from asia aswell, ordered from India, basically the price was the same as elite keyboards but with 4 pbt spacebars and some discount which made the shipped price = elitekeyboards price without shipping charges. and so far all things ive ordered with them have reached smoothly and absolutely zero problems. they ship via dhl mail / once it reaches your country the local post takes over, u can track it fully even at your destination... would highly recommend them. only drawback is .. if u order via amazon jp or elite - if they have stock they ship right away. massdrop shipment for my order will take place on jan 15th so im expecting the keyboard between jan end / first week feb

[TopreFan333]

Hello! Which would be more judicious choice for Adobe suite, coding, typing and minimal gaming usage?

Is it true that the HHKB Pro 2 cannot be used to enter the UEFI BIOS as a consequence of the built-in USB hub?

Is it true that the Realforce 87u cannot be used to wake a Mac from sleep?

I am favouring the HHKB Pro 2 for its intuitive and alluring design. It is a pity that the uniformed 45g 87u is exclusive to EliteKeyboards and in dark grey.

Looking forward to your thoughts. Thank you and stay safe!

Just a heads-up, if you use InDesign a lot, it's fond of stylesheet shortcuts that come from the numeric (not top-row) keypad numbers. Also just generally I think you'll find that a lack of proper F-keys will hinder you from using a lot of shortcuts in general across a lot of the CC products. I have an HHKB and love it, but I'd go with the Realforce 87u for this use case.

[Madeupword]

I apologise if I misled. I meant the overall construction of the RF is of higher quality to the HHKB. I believe this is a common theme in several comparisons found online. But as noted, both are outstanding boards.

@Bucake Would you still pick a plain HHKB sans Hasu's controller over the RF?

@Polymer Which keyboard(s) do you currently own and which keyboard would you recommend?

I am intrigued by the placement of Control & Backspace and the inclusion of media keys. Outside of the arrow keys, I do not foresee myself actively hitting the lesser used cursor and system command cluster, e.g. Page up, Page down, Home, Insert, Locks, SysRq/Prt Scn and Pause.

I don't buy the "Realforce higher quality" argument. They're both extremely solid boards and don't creak. I think what people equate to quality is just the heavier weight. And weight != quality, it just means its heavier. They're both ABS cases of a similar thickness.

They do feel different. The Realforce is more... precise, and the HHKB more organic as mentioned before. I like them both.

I don't like the default HHKB Fn layer, so I use hasu's controller on mine. It's ok for F row (as its Fn + number, like just about every other small keyboard), but navigation is a pain IMO. Thus, I almost immediately bought hasu's controller this time around. Hasu's controller is relatively inexpensive, so if you can afford it, I'd get it. And its a cinch to install.

For what its worth, if I couldn't program my HHKB, I'd likely prefer the 87u. But since I can, it's hard to pick a favorite.

Alrighty, already researching on Hasu's controller!

I went from the Poker X to the HHKB and acutally liked the HHKB Fn layer better.
Those Realforce are tempting, but idk. I'm currently using a full sized board and haven't touched my arrow keys or numblock all day.

The only thing I miss with my 60% boards are F-keys for Starcraft camera locations. :s

If I were to get a second Topre some day I'd have a really hard time choosing between a black HHKB or 87/88U for the added compatibility with programs that expect the usual key layout from time to time.

Well, you already have more than a few keyboards to choose from. On my end, should I end up with HHKB, I'm just glad I have a cheap and basic Logitech keyboard to enter BIOS with.

And where do I find those tiny keyboards on your signature. They are just too cute.

At one point in time I considered this decision as well.  I also was allured by the look of the HHKB vs the rather average looking RF, and was very close to pulling the trigger.  What made me eventually decide on the 55g RF was the following: the HHKB does not have a dedicated nav cluster and number keys, of which I use all the time when browsing the net.  The RF is heavier and has better feet that do not move around on a desktop as much (portability is irrelevant for me since I keep my keyboard in front of one computer).  The RF comes available with the heavier 55g switch, that I decided would suit my typing preferences more (and in hindsight I still agree with this judgment despite not yet trying 45g topre). 

Could you describe your usage of the arrow keys and numpad and why the HHKB wouldn't work (in your case)? I agree with your take on the lack of mobility for the RF. I recall several reviews noting the outstanding feet placement. As mentioned earlier, I've gathered the 55g feels better, while the 45g on HHKB provides better comfort on long laps. But I wonder if this is closer to an axiom or more of an opinion.

Well, it's basically the argument than anyone uses when they prefer a TKL layout to a 60% one.  I use the delete key a lot when editing text, whether im typing a paper or a forum post.  I use the page up and page down keys often when navigating websites and to change between files in my media player.  I use the home and end keys to navigate to the top of websites and documents.  I use the arrow keys for navigating/reading on websites, for editing text, to adjust volume and navigate media files, etc.  While you can access all of these keys on the HHKB, you need to use an fn layer and press an extra key, which is something id rather not do when im using the computer casually.  If none of this bothers you, then by all means get the 60% board and save some space.

Slight relief I haven't had to utilise those keys in that manner. I reckon mostly due to the fact I'm on a Mac and have only recently added a Windows desktop to my workflow. While using the Mac, I've been using the Apple Wireless Keyboard.

EDIT: I actually do use those keys with chording, in similar fashion. Just didn't realised it with the varying layout of the Apple Wireless Keyboard.

@Polymer Which keyboard(s) do you currently own and which keyboard would you recommend?

I am intrigued by the placement of Control & Backspace and the inclusion of media keys. Outside of the arrow keys, I do not foresee myself actively hitting the lesser used cursor and system command cluster, e.g. Page up, Page down, Home, Insert, Locks, SysRq/Prt Scn and Pause.

I believe the media keys only work with a Mac.  The CTRL and Backspace placements are excellent. 

I've narrowed my Topre down to Variable and HHKB...

The variable is great for longer typing sessions..it probably isn't the most enjoyable keyboard as far as the overall feeling you get..but it is BY FAR the easiest on my hands and I probably use it more than any other boards I have (cherry, alps, other Topre). 

The HHKB I enjoy using more..but after using the variable it is a bit tiring..and as a result I use it less...I switch back and forth fairly regularly though...I think the overall enjoyment is greater with the HHKB...I just find that the RF is so easy on my hands that I know it is probably better to use longer term. 

If you have to get Topre and game, variable will SUCK..bad...I like variable purely for typing...

I've had uniform Topres other than the HHKB (660c, RF) and both were very good as well.....I've not tried the Novatouch or Type Heaven yet...

Yes, unfortunately media keys are exclusive to Mac. I guess it's natural for our bodies to use minimum effort for similar result. So note to self, do not try the variable or any lighter keyboard switches.

Enjoyment with the HHKB, this seem to be a common occurrence. "Fun" and "organic" have also been diction used to describe the HHKB. You salesmen and ladies!

@Bucake Would you still pick a plain HHKB sans Hasu's controller over the RF?

blindly, i would recommend the RF in that case.
but it really depends on how you will use your board, so you just have to weigh out the options..
is the Fn-layer of the HHKB a turn-off? +1 RF
will you carry it around a lot? +1 HHKB
do you use the F-keys a ton? +1 RF
do you use the arrow-cluster a ton? +1 RF
will you benefit from a smaller keyboard? +1 HHKB
do you want blank caps? +1 HHKB
etc, etc..

and don't forget to check out some audio clips; they sound very different and it changes the experience a lot

I believe the media keys only work with a Mac.  The CTRL and Backspace placements are excellent. 

yes, this is another consideration. if you're not a mac user, a bunch of your legends will be meaningless (this is why i like the blank caps so much).

Well, it's basically the argument than anyone uses when they prefer a TKL layout to a 60% one.  I use the delete key a lot when editing text, whether im typing a paper or a forum post.  I use the page up and page down keys often when navigating websites and to change between files in my media player.  I use the home and end keys to navigate to the top of websites and documents.  I use the arrow keys for navigating/reading on websites, for editing text, to adjust volume and navigate media files, etc.  While you can access all of these keys on the HHKB, you need to use an fn layer and press an extra key, which is something id rather not do when im using the computer casually.  If none of this bothers you, then by all means get the 60% board and save some space.

good examples!
if you're anything like eternalmetal and you use those kinds of keys a lot, the hhkb might be more frustrating than helpful in the end.
( hasu's controller fixes this, though! just throwing that out there.. )

Would you say you made that blind recommendation for the RF because it's a safer choice? And yes I've been on Youtube and now realise the greatness of ASMR. I must never go near a Type S, it whispers sweet everything! What I heard suggested, HHKB Pro2 Type S>HHKB Pro2>RF 55g>RF 45g>Novatouch.

Speaking of the media keys, how does the Enebrick Bluetooth work with the HHKB? Can I pair it with the Mac and the Windows desktop? I may need to get a replacement for the Apple Wireless Keyboard for Mac duty, wondering if an Enebrick will reduce the clutter while working with the Mac and Windows simultaneously. Much like how the Logitech MX Master perform as a multi-device mouse.

i have never used Topre before, but as a first board, i just joined the last drop for a white 87U 55g. (jan shipping)
only mech i ever had was a cm rapid-i browns and i got the realforce on a friends suggestion.

"The last drop" meaning Massdrop? I'm also sourcing out the best way to purchase either keyboards. Being based in Asia, it's either EliteKeyboards/Massdrop-equiv. or Amazon Japan.

What are the probability of receiving an DOA keyboard? Likewise, I am definitely interested in the purchasing process.

Looking forward to more responses. You guys are awesome!

Im from asia aswell, ordered from India, basically the price was the same as elite keyboards but with 4 pbt spacebars and some discount which made the shipped price = elitekeyboards price without shipping charges. and so far all things ive ordered with them have reached smoothly and absolutely zero problems. they ship via dhl mail / once it reaches your country the local post takes over, u can track it fully even at your destination... would highly recommend them. only drawback is .. if u order via amazon jp or elite - if they have stock they ship right away. massdrop shipment for my order will take place on jan 15th so im expecting the keyboard between jan end / first week feb

Bloody missed it. Did you ponder between the HHKB and the RF or was RF at the get-go? If you were to make your purchase again, outside of Massdrop, where would you shop at? Those PBT Spacebars are hard to come by. Massdrop has around 800 requests.

Hello! Which would be more judicious choice for Adobe suite, coding, typing and minimal gaming usage?

Is it true that the HHKB Pro 2 cannot be used to enter the UEFI BIOS as a consequence of the built-in USB hub?

Is it true that the Realforce 87u cannot be used to wake a Mac from sleep?

I am favouring the HHKB Pro 2 for its intuitive and alluring design. It is a pity that the uniformed 45g 87u is exclusive to EliteKeyboards and in dark grey.

Looking forward to your thoughts. Thank you and stay safe!

Just a heads-up, if you use InDesign a lot, it's fond of stylesheet shortcuts that come from the numeric (not top-row) keypad numbers. Also just generally I think you'll find that a lack of proper F-keys will hinder you from using a lot of shortcuts in general across a lot of the CC products. I have an HHKB and love it, but I'd go with the Realforce 87u for this use case.

Meaning it'll require user to hit the Fn along with function/numeric keys? Coming from the Apple Wireless Keyboard, what do you think will be a better keyboard to transition to and use along a Windows desktop and occasionally the Mac? Occasionally the Mac, unless I can get the HHKB or RF to be a multi-device keyboard.

I'm leaning towards the HHKB for now. It seems more alike to the Apple Wireless Keyboard. It is, yes?

As always, you guys are awesome! Stepped away yesterday and returned to find so many constructive comments was most heartening. Thank you, people!

[demik]

RF 55G GREATEST TOPRE SWITCH HANDS DOWN.

[keshley]

RF 55G GREATEST TOPRE SWITCH HANDS DOWN.

Your license plate is crying.

[demik]

RF 55G GREATEST TOPRE SWITCH HANDS DOWN.

Your license plate is crying.

nah, hhkb is the greatest keyboard

[Madeupword]

RF 55G GREATEST TOPRE SWITCH HANDS DOWN.

RF 55G GREATEST TOPRE SWITCH HANDS DOWN.

Your license plate is crying.

nah, hhkb is the greatest keyboard

So.. 55g HHKB, if not 45g HHKB?

[madhias]

Don't forget that the Apple wireless has dedicated arrows and the F-row. It will hurt in the beginning not to have them (working with Adobe software). I'd recommend first a 55g Realforce 87U.

[bocahgundul]

RF 55G GREATEST TOPRE SWITCH HANDS DOWN.

RF 55G GREATEST TOPRE SWITCH HANDS DOWN.

Your license plate is crying.

nah, hhkb is the greatest keyboard

So.. 55g HHKB, if not 45g HHKB?

55g hhkb is not good. 45g hhkb is perfect not too light not too heavy for long period typing.
So the conclusion is HHKB BEST BOARD

[Madeupword]

Don't forget that the Apple wireless has dedicated arrows and the F-row. It will hurt in the beginning not to have them (working with Adobe software). I'd recommend first a 55g Realforce 87U.

The Apple Wireless Keyboard does require hitting the fn key to toggle F-row, unless that option is checked off which would remove the hotkey functions for media, screen brightness, etc. Seem like the arrow cluster is what I need to get used to the most. Are you working with Adobe suite on the HHKB regularly? Any scenario where you felt the HHKB hindered your workflow?

So.. 55g HHKB, if not 45g HHKB?

55g hhkb is not good. 45g hhkb is perfect not too light not too heavy for long period typing.
So the conclusion is HHKB BEST BOARD

Okay then!

[toxicdrift]

Im from asia aswell, ordered from India, basically the price was the same as elite keyboards but with 4 pbt spacebars and some discount which made the shipped price = elitekeyboards price without shipping charges. and so far all things ive ordered with them have reached smoothly and absolutely zero problems. they ship via dhl mail / once it reaches your country the local post takes over, u can track it fully even at your destination... would highly recommend them. only drawback is .. if u order via amazon jp or elite - if they have stock they ship right away. massdrop shipment for my order will take place on jan 15th so im expecting the keyboard between jan end / first week feb

Bloody missed it. Did you ponder between the HHKB and the RF or was RF at the get-go? If you were to make your purchase again, outside of Massdrop, where would you shop at? Those PBT Spacebars are hard to come by. Massdrop has around 800 requests.

they keep doing sales every other month so id say just wait for it, and buy from massdrop, the pbt spacebars itself are a 40$ value that you basically get free, IF you are in a hurry Elitekeyboards is the place to order from as you will get proper warranty as they are a official distry/reseller, Unless ordering from amazon jp works out cheaper for you being in asia, but warranty would be a problem incase anything goes wrong. Where are you located if u dont mind me asking, there are alot of places that sell RF keyboards in asia aswell

if you are going HHKB route, then also check out the type S model. only available in white though. for me it was RF from the get go, as i need the arrow keys haha prefer the normal placement for them aswell.

[madhias]

Don't forget that the Apple wireless has dedicated arrows and the F-row. It will hurt in the beginning not to have them (working with Adobe software). I'd recommend first a 55g Realforce 87U.

The Apple Wireless Keyboard does require hitting the fn key to toggle F-row, unless that option is checked off which would remove the hotkey functions for media, screen brightness, etc. Seem like the arrow cluster is what I need to get used to the most. Are you working with Adobe suite on the HHKB regularly? Any scenario where you felt the HHKB hindered your workflow?

Well, as soon as you don't have dedicated arrows anymore you will 'feel' the difference. It is not that big deal, you get definitely used to it. But at work for example, where I am using Illustrator and Photoshop and some other graphic applications more than 4h a day, and sometimes an whole week, working without arrows or in general with a small format keyboard is hindering me definitely I would say. Several times I used for a few days my 60% MX board there, but always changed back to a TKL keyboard - and leave it then for a long time after again rotating to another one. Now since about half a year or more or less I use the Realforce, and absolutely don't look back. But now I am typing on my HHKB

[Madeupword]

Im from asia aswell, ordered from India, basically the price was the same as elite keyboards but with 4 pbt spacebars and some discount which made the shipped price = elitekeyboards price without shipping charges. and so far all things ive ordered with them have reached smoothly and absolutely zero problems. they ship via dhl mail / once it reaches your country the local post takes over, u can track it fully even at your destination... would highly recommend them. only drawback is .. if u order via amazon jp or elite - if they have stock they ship right away. massdrop shipment for my order will take place on jan 15th so im expecting the keyboard between jan end / first week feb

Bloody missed it. Did you ponder between the HHKB and the RF or was RF at the get-go? If you were to make your purchase again, outside of Massdrop, where would you shop at? Those PBT Spacebars are hard to come by. Massdrop has around 800 requests.

they keep doing sales every other month so id say just wait for it, and buy from massdrop, the pbt spacebars itself are a 40$ value that you basically get free, IF you are in a hurry Elitekeyboards is the place to order from as you will get proper warranty as they are a official distry/reseller, Unless ordering from amazon jp works out cheaper for you being in asia, but warranty would be a problem incase anything goes wrong. Where are you located if u dont mind me asking, there are alot of places that sell RF keyboards in asia aswell

if you are going HHKB route, then also check out the type S model. only available in white though. for me it was RF from the get go, as i need the arrow keys haha prefer the normal placement for them aswell.

I see. I'm hesitant to purchase from EK due to the following statement on their FAQ, "Please note that currently our Terms of Warranty Service do not apply for customers outside of the USA and Canada. Shipping internationally is done as a courtesy only and no warranty is available outside of the US and Canada. All products are tested before they are shipped and any issues related to DOA (Dead On Arrival) products will be dealt with on a case by case basis." Yes, there's plenty of places with RFs but getting from Japan seem to work out cheaper overall. But the Massdrop option is really tempting and worthwhile.

Still deciding between the RF and HHKB, I'm starting to like the sound the RF 55g makes. Somewhat more substantial. The HHKB Pro2 Type S sound truly glorious but the added cost is slightly hard to bear with what is already an expensive keyboard. I find the spacebar to be the main culprit. Although the HHKB Pro2 has a certain nuance audibly, I like it a lot. Maybe this factors into what the community declare as "fun" and "organic".

[Madeupword]

Don't forget that the Apple wireless has dedicated arrows and the F-row. It will hurt in the beginning not to have them (working with Adobe software). I'd recommend first a 55g Realforce 87U.

The Apple Wireless Keyboard does require hitting the fn key to toggle F-row, unless that option is checked off which would remove the hotkey functions for media, screen brightness, etc. Seem like the arrow cluster is what I need to get used to the most. Are you working with Adobe suite on the HHKB regularly? Any scenario where you felt the HHKB hindered your workflow?

Well, as soon as you don't have dedicated arrows anymore you will 'feel' the difference. It is not that big deal, you get definitely used to it. But at work for example, where I am using Illustrator and Photoshop and some other graphic applications more than 4h a day, and sometimes an whole week, working without arrows or in general with a small format keyboard is hindering me definitely I would say. Several times I used for a few days my 60% MX board there, but always changed back to a TKL keyboard - and leave it then for a long time after again rotating to another one. Now since about half a year or more or less I use the Realforce, and absolutely don't look back. But now I am typing on my HHKB

Wait, wait, so why are you on the HHKB! So you're on the RF when working and on the HHKB when not?

"Same-same, but different, but still same!" 

[madhias]

I am at home! So here is only Lightroom, terminal usage and posting in threads like this one!

[Madeupword]

I am at home! So here is only Lightroom, terminal usage and posting in threads like this one!

Marooned on an island, HHKB or RF?

[madhias]

I am at home! So here is only Lightroom, terminal usage and posting in threads like this one!

Marooned on an island, HHKB or RF?

Really hard to decide! Maybe the HHKB, but because of the form factor, the weight (light), and because of being almost all the time on the beach or in the woods getting food and water. So not much time for the PC!

[Madeupword]

I am at home! So here is only Lightroom, terminal usage and posting in threads like this one!

Marooned on an island, HHKB or RF?

Really hard to decide! Maybe the HHKB, but because of the form factor, the weight (light), and because of being almost all the time on the beach or in the woods getting food and water. So not much time for the PC!

At least you've yet to use it as a paddle. Compared the dimensions and weight of the two keyboards with the Apple Wireless Keyboard, and at 1.2kg (2lbs 10oz) it's no wonder the RF appear immovable.

There doesn't seem to be a great Bluetooth addition or alternative. Hasu's controller would require an additional battery and DIY, while the Enebrick seem to fall short due to the amount of power required. Some nasty translated reviews on it.

Is anyone pairing the HHKB with a Logitech MX Master mouse?

Probably an unpopular query, but has anyone tried the Logitech K380 and how is it?

[toxicdrift]

I have a k480 and a mx master lol thats my setup right now till i get the RealForce 87U. Got it cuz i wanted to use a bluetooth keyboard with the Remix Mini (android pc) thats also on the way from hong kong. Liking it so far, no issues with my windows pc / havent tried it on my laptop and thats usually my on the go machine and i dont use a keyboard with it. anything else u want to know, lemme know 

[TopreFan333]

Meaning it'll require user to hit the Fn along with function/numeric keys? Coming from the Apple Wireless Keyboard, what do you think will be a better keyboard to transition to and use along a Windows desktop and occasionally the Mac? Occasionally the Mac, unless I can get the HHKB or RF to be a multi-device keyboard.

I'm leaning towards the HHKB for now. It seems more alike to the Apple Wireless Keyboard. It is, yes?

Well, the Apple Wireless does have dedicated F-keys, but you have to make a trip (in OS X) to the Keyboard control panel to set them to not do brightness, volume, etc. There's a nice utility on the App Store called Palua which automatically changes into F-key mode depending on what app you're using.

With the HHKB, you're always gonna have to use the FN layer to get to F-keys, and like I said, you're still missing that numeric keypad that also can be programmed for a lot of shortcuts. And I do so much arrow nudging in Illustrator, InDesign and Photoshop that the HHKB FN-layer arrows would drive me nuts. There are times when you're holding option or another modifier while hitting arrows, and that's gonna get cumbersome after a while. Could you do it? Sure, but it's not going to be very efficient.

[Madeupword]

I have a k480 and a mx master lol thats my setup right now till i get the RealForce 87U. Got it cuz i wanted to use a bluetooth keyboard with the Remix Mini (android pc) thats also on the way from hong kong. Liking it so far, no issues with my windows pc / havent tried it on my laptop and thats usually my on the go machine and i dont use a keyboard with it. anything else u want to know, lemme know 

This is awesome, thank you so much! So I guess you bought the RF for the Topre experience and chose white for legibility?

Well, the Apple Wireless does have dedicated F-keys, but you have to make a trip (in OS X) to the Keyboard control panel to set them to not do brightness, volume, etc. There's a nice utility on the App Store called Palua which automatically changes into F-key mode depending on what app you're using.

With the HHKB, you're always gonna have to use the FN layer to get to F-keys, and like I said, you're still missing that numeric keypad that also can be programmed for a lot of shortcuts. And I do so much arrow nudging in Illustrator, InDesign and Photoshop that the HHKB FN-layer arrows would drive me nuts. There are times when you're holding option or another modifier while hitting arrows, and that's gonna get cumbersome after a while. Could you do it? Sure, but it's not going to be very efficient.

"arrow nudging in Illustrator, InDesign and Photoshop" this surely is a "I know that feel bro" moment.

[Vittra]

Looking forward to it! Were you in a dilemma between a HHKB and Realforce too?

I reckon more than anything, these are fine keyboards and that it is their negatives that set them apart.

Appreciate the prompt responses and anticipating even more. Thank you so much!

I've had my HHKB Pro 2 for a few days now. I tested getting into the UEFI(/BIOS), and I was able to do so without issue. This was with the switches in various different modes, including both Lite and Mac modes.

This was with CSM enabled. If I disable CSM and turn on Fast Boot, the system will boot too fast for any keyboard to be used, so that would have no direct relation to the HHKB Pro 2.

The keyboard is plugged into a USB 3.0 (AKA 3.1 Gen 1) port for reference, which is tied directly to the Z170 chipset.

[Madeupword]

Looking forward to it! Were you in a dilemma between a HHKB and Realforce too?

I reckon more than anything, these are fine keyboards and that it is their negatives that set them apart.

Appreciate the prompt responses and anticipating even more. Thank you so much!

I've had my HHKB Pro 2 for a few days now. I tested getting into the UEFI(/BIOS), and I was able to do so without issue. This was with the switches in various different modes, including both Lite and Mac modes.

This was with CSM enabled. If I disable CSM and turn on Fast Boot, the system will boot too fast for any keyboard to be used, so that would have no direct relation to the HHKB Pro 2.

The keyboard is plugged into a USB 3.0 (AKA 3.1 Gen 1) port for reference, which is tied directly to the Z170 chipset.

That's great news, more so since I've decided to go with HHKB Pro2. In the meantime, I need to look for a couple of white topre PBT spacebars.

[toxicdrift]

congratulations bro, great choice. post some pictures once u get it!