Author Topic: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?  (Read 34364 times)

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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #100 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 20:36:55 »
Do you think that changing the springs with new ones would restore the crispiness?

Assuming there are no (or very few) broken rivets, I believe so, yes.

Now this comment makes no sense at all.  If you are going to replace the springs, you have to completely remove the back plate, and do a bolt mod.  You can attempt to put springs in to replace the springs using the "chopstick" method, but I am confident that there will be more screwed up springs if you go about it that way.  This method is not recommended.

Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #101 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 21:35:18 »
Do you think that changing the springs with new ones would restore the crispiness?

Assuming there are no (or very few) broken rivets, I believe so, yes.

Now this comment makes no sense at all.  If you are going to replace the springs, you have to completely remove the back plate, and do a bolt mod.  You can attempt to put springs in to replace the springs using the "chopstick" method, but I am confident that there will be more screwed up springs if you go about it that way.  This method is not recommended.

It's more than obvious that if you plan to change all of the springs in a M that it's irrelevant whether there are broken rivets as it's impractical to change them all via the chopstick method. However, springs may not be solely responsible for mushy keys and that was the point.
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 June 2016, 21:37:23 by 1391406 »
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #102 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 21:38:15 »
Do you think that changing the springs with new ones would restore the crispiness?

Assuming there are no (or very few) broken rivets, I believe so, yes.

Now this comment makes no sense at all.  If you are going to replace the springs, you have to completely remove the back plate, and do a bolt mod.  You can attempt to put springs in to replace the springs using the "chopstick" method, but I am confident that there will be more screwed up springs if you go about it that way.  This method is not recommended.

It's more than obvious that if you plan to change all of the springs in a M that it's irrelevant whether there are broken rivets as it's impractical to change them all via the chopstick method. However, springs may not be solely responsible for mushy keys and that was the point.

Oh heck, did you read what you told that guy?

Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #103 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 21:39:44 »
Do you think that changing the springs with new ones would restore the crispiness?

Assuming there are no (or very few) broken rivets, I believe so, yes.

Now this comment makes no sense at all.  If you are going to replace the springs, you have to completely remove the back plate, and do a bolt mod.  You can attempt to put springs in to replace the springs using the "chopstick" method, but I am confident that there will be more screwed up springs if you go about it that way.  This method is not recommended.

It's more than obvious that if you plan to change all of the springs in a M that it's irrelevant whether there are broken rivets as it's impractical to change them all via the chopstick method. However, springs may not be solely responsible for mushy keys and that was the point.

Oh heck, did you read what you told that guy?

Of course.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
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Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #104 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 21:41:50 »
And for the record, there's actually a tool that Unicomp uses to easily pull and replace springs without disassembling the entire board. I've been meaning to call them and inquire about whether they'd sell it to the public.
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 June 2016, 21:46:21 by 1391406 »
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #105 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 21:46:45 »
And for the record, there's actually a tool that Unicomp uses to easily pull springs without disassembling the entire board. I've been meaning to call them and inquire about whether they'd sell it to the public.

Why in the world would you recommend something that you can't obtain?  Another thing, is you have to order the springs with the hammers anyway.  If you are going to do this, do it right or not at all.  What a bad recommendation to give to someone.

Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #106 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 21:54:58 »
And for the record, there's actually a tool that Unicomp uses to easily pull springs without disassembling the entire board. I've been meaning to call them and inquire about whether they'd sell it to the public.

Why in the world would you recommend something that you can't obtain?

How is my comment recommending anything? And if I knew Unicomp's tool wasn't attainable, why would I bother to call and ask?

Another thing, is you have to order the springs with the hammers anyway.  If you are going to do this, do it right or not at all.  What a bad recommendation to give to someone.

And what did I recommend exactly? Secondly, Unicomp will replace the springs and pivot plates for a nominal fee.
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #107 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 21:57:51 »
And for the record, there's actually a tool that Unicomp uses to easily pull springs without disassembling the entire board. I've been meaning to call them and inquire about whether they'd sell it to the public.

Why in the world would you recommend something that you can't obtain?

How is my comment recommending anything? And if I knew Unicomp's tool wasn't attainable, why would I bother to call and ask?

Another thing, is you have to order the springs with the hammers anyway.  If you are going to do this, do it right or not at all.  What a bad recommendation to give to someone.

And what did I recommend exactly? Secondly, Unicomp will replace the springs and pivot plates for a nominal fee.

If you can't even acknowledge what you said earlier, why should I explain it to you?

Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #108 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 21:58:24 »
And for the record, there's actually a tool that Unicomp uses to easily pull springs without disassembling the entire board. I've been meaning to call them and inquire about whether they'd sell it to the public.

Why in the world would you recommend something that you can't obtain?

How is my comment recommending anything? And if I knew Unicomp's tool wasn't attainable, why would I bother to call and ask?

Another thing, is you have to order the springs with the hammers anyway.  If you are going to do this, do it right or not at all.  What a bad recommendation to give to someone.

And what did I recommend exactly? Secondly, Unicomp will replace the springs and pivot plates for a nominal fee.

If you can't even acknowledge what you said earlier, why should I explain it to you?

If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #109 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 22:05:25 »
If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.

STOOPID ALERT! 

Do you think that changing the springs with new ones would restore the crispiness?
Quote from: 1391406
Assuming there are no (or very few) broken rivets, I believe so, yes.

Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #110 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 22:11:27 »
If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.

STOOPID ALERT!

Apparently you don't know the difference between the definition of recommendation and confirmation. Here
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #111 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 22:25:39 »
If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.

STOOPID ALERT!

Apparently you don't know the difference between the definition of recommendation and confirmation. Here

You're so smart. I can't even contemplate how you took those "stupid" pills to make yourself look smarter.

Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #112 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 22:27:24 »
If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.

STOOPID ALERT!

Apparently you don't know the difference between the definition of recommendation and confirmation. Here

You're so smart. I can't even contemplate how you took those "stupid" pills to make yourself look smarter.


Ad hominems mean nothing to me. Either back up your assertion or don't. Otherwise, you're just resorting to insults, and insults aren't a valid substitute for substantive rebuttal.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #113 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 22:47:32 »
If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.

STOOPID ALERT!

Apparently you don't know the difference between the definition of recommendation and confirmation. Here

You're so smart. I can't even contemplate how you took those "stupid" pills to make yourself look smarter.


Ad hominems mean nothing to me. Either back up your assertion or don't. Otherwise, you're just resorting to insults, and insults aren't a valid substitute for substantive rebuttal.

Ok.  You did this to yourself.

Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #114 on: Tue, 14 June 2016, 22:50:12 »
If you're going to make an assertion, back it up. I never recommended anything.

STOOPID ALERT!

Apparently you don't know the difference between the definition of recommendation and confirmation. Here

You're so smart. I can't even contemplate how you took those "stupid" pills to make yourself look smarter.


Ad hominems mean nothing to me. Either back up your assertion or don't. Otherwise, you're just resorting to insults, and insults aren't a valid substitute for substantive rebuttal.

Ok.  You did this to yourself.

Whatever.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #115 on: Wed, 15 June 2016, 07:42:39 »
Uh, guys ..... leave the bickering on the playground.

Refreshing springs, as part of an overall rehab, is probably is good idea, but not earth-shattering.
"However, even though I was born in the Mesozoic, I do know what anyone who wants to reach out to young people should say: Billionaires took your money. They took your chance to buy a home. They took your chance at a good education. They stole your opportunities. Billionaires took the things you want in life. If you really want those things, you have to take them back.
That's the message. That's the whole message. Say that every day, not just to reach America's frustrated young white men, but people of every age, race, and gender.
Late-stage capitalism is a wealth-concentration engine, focused on vacuuming up every dollar and putting it in as few hands as possible. Republicans are helping that vacuum suck.
How does a tiny fraction of the population get away with this? They do it by dividing the other 99% of Americans against themselves."
- Marc Sumner 2025-05-30

Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #116 on: Wed, 15 June 2016, 09:31:01 »
Refreshing springs, as part of an overall rehab, is probably is good idea, but not earth-shattering.

Is there another factor, aside from springs and rivets, that contributes to the firmness of the keys?
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 June 2016, 09:33:35 by 1391406 »
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #117 on: Wed, 15 June 2016, 10:05:32 »
After a bolt mod you can do considerable "tuning" by tightening and loosening the screws.
It is surprising how much adjustment there is, and cranking them all down hard will make the keyboard unusable.
My favorite results come from holding the socket in my fingertips, going to "just finger tight" - then backing off a quarter of a turn.
"However, even though I was born in the Mesozoic, I do know what anyone who wants to reach out to young people should say: Billionaires took your money. They took your chance to buy a home. They took your chance at a good education. They stole your opportunities. Billionaires took the things you want in life. If you really want those things, you have to take them back.
That's the message. That's the whole message. Say that every day, not just to reach America's frustrated young white men, but people of every age, race, and gender.
Late-stage capitalism is a wealth-concentration engine, focused on vacuuming up every dollar and putting it in as few hands as possible. Republicans are helping that vacuum suck.
How does a tiny fraction of the population get away with this? They do it by dividing the other 99% of Americans against themselves."
- Marc Sumner 2025-05-30

Offline need

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #118 on: Wed, 15 June 2016, 10:39:49 »
If I were to perform a screw bolt, how do I make sure the tightness is correct?

Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #119 on: Wed, 15 June 2016, 10:49:28 »
After a bolt mod you can do considerable "tuning" by tightening and loosening the screws.
It is surprising how much adjustment there is, and cranking them all down hard will make the keyboard unusable.
My favorite results come from holding the socket in my fingertips, going to "just finger tight" - then backing off a quarter of a turn.

In an unbolted Model M, can you think of any factors extraneous to springs and rivets that would contribute to the firmness of the keys, though?
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
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Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #120 on: Wed, 15 June 2016, 10:54:12 »
If I were to perform a screw bolt, how do I make sure the tightness is correct?

It's a matter of preference, but I'd suggest this as mentioned by fohat:

"My favorite results come from holding the socket in my fingertips, going to "just finger tight" - then backing off a quarter of a turn."

Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #121 on: Wed, 15 June 2016, 11:09:05 »
If I were to perform a screw bolt, how do I make sure the tightness is correct?

The first natural tendency will be to screw everything down too tight. Just think about it: you are replacing little shafts or stems of relatively soft flexible plastic with steel machine screws!

For me, the best way to get consistency is to tighten all of them to the same torque, then back out by equal amounts or number of turns.

If you go too tight, you will flex or warp the barrel plate and some or all of the "flippers" will not be able to flip because they are squeezed down.
"However, even though I was born in the Mesozoic, I do know what anyone who wants to reach out to young people should say: Billionaires took your money. They took your chance to buy a home. They took your chance at a good education. They stole your opportunities. Billionaires took the things you want in life. If you really want those things, you have to take them back.
That's the message. That's the whole message. Say that every day, not just to reach America's frustrated young white men, but people of every age, race, and gender.
Late-stage capitalism is a wealth-concentration engine, focused on vacuuming up every dollar and putting it in as few hands as possible. Republicans are helping that vacuum suck.
How does a tiny fraction of the population get away with this? They do it by dividing the other 99% of Americans against themselves."
- Marc Sumner 2025-05-30

Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #122 on: Wed, 15 June 2016, 11:24:21 »
If I were to perform a screw bolt, how do I make sure the tightness is correct?

The first natural tendency will be to screw everything down too tight.

If you go too tight, you will flex or warp the barrel plate and some or all of the "flippers" will not be able to flip because they are squeezed down.

Or just crack the barrel plate horizontally and have to get a new one. 

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #123 on: Wed, 15 June 2016, 11:46:30 »

Or just crack the barrel plate horizontally and have to get a new one. 


I don't think that is too likely to happen because the forces are spread pretty evenly along a wide (nearly) flat surface, and you are actually pulling the barrel plate into the inside of the curvature.

You are far more likely to crack the plate when you pry the pieces apart. At any rate, a small crack won't matter too much after the mod is completed because the screws will keep it nicely in place anyway.
"However, even though I was born in the Mesozoic, I do know what anyone who wants to reach out to young people should say: Billionaires took your money. They took your chance to buy a home. They took your chance at a good education. They stole your opportunities. Billionaires took the things you want in life. If you really want those things, you have to take them back.
That's the message. That's the whole message. Say that every day, not just to reach America's frustrated young white men, but people of every age, race, and gender.
Late-stage capitalism is a wealth-concentration engine, focused on vacuuming up every dollar and putting it in as few hands as possible. Republicans are helping that vacuum suck.
How does a tiny fraction of the population get away with this? They do it by dividing the other 99% of Americans against themselves."
- Marc Sumner 2025-05-30

Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #124 on: Wed, 15 June 2016, 23:24:11 »

Or just crack the barrel plate horizontally and have to get a new one. 


I don't think that is too likely to happen because the forces are spread pretty evenly along a wide (nearly) flat surface, and you are actually pulling the barrel plate into the inside of the curvature.

You are far more likely to crack the plate when you pry the pieces apart. At any rate, a small crack won't matter too much after the mod is completed because the screws will keep it nicely in place anyway.

http://wiki.geekhack.org/index.php?title=Modifications:IBM_Model_M:Cracked_Barrel_Frame_Repair

Offline need

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #125 on: Fri, 17 June 2016, 17:56:08 »
Thanks for the tips  :-*

Offline rowdy

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #126 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 00:19:36 »
The Unicomp Ultra Classic is on Massdrop if anyone is curious to try one of them.

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/unicomp-ultra-classic?mode=guest_open
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

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Offline xtrafrood

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #127 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 00:45:45 »
Seriously, if anyone wants to see a decent picture of a Unicomp keyboard Massdrop has got you covered. Unicomp's pics were taken by someone's kid brother/sister or someone off the street. "Hey, can you take a picture of my keyboard?™"
(sold) Chris Schammert (Christopher Schammert)

Offline lee+

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #128 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 05:36:15 »
I think it comes down to this:

Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.  They both step completely into the background and don't get into your way.  The IBM ones are more pleasing to use when you pay attention to your tool.

Unfortunately, the IBM ones you can nowadays get seem to have deteriorated so much that it is more advisable to buy a new Unicomp.  Or buy both and put the innerts of the Unicomp into the IBM case.

Offline davkol

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #129 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 05:57:13 »
Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.
LOL, no.

Offline lee+

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #130 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 06:01:56 »
Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.
LOL, no.

Ok, what's the better alternative?

Offline emdude

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #131 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 06:05:46 »
Unfortunately, the IBM ones you can nowadays get seem to have deteriorated so much that it is more advisable to buy a new Unicomp.  Or buy both and put the innerts of the Unicomp into the IBM case.

I disagree, most IBM Model Ms are in good shape, aside from perhaps the plastic rivets which can easily be addressed with a relatively simple bolt/screw mod.  Even those that are worse off are not difficult to rescue and doing so is much cheaper than buying a Unicomp just for its inferior internals.
Current drivers: IBM Model M SSK

Offline davkol

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #132 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 06:19:06 »
Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.
LOL, no.
Ok, what's the better alternative?
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model F
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F

…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.

Offline lee+

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #133 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 07:18:20 »
Unfortunately, the IBM ones you can nowadays get seem to have deteriorated so much that it is more advisable to buy a new Unicomp.  Or buy both and put the innerts of the Unicomp into the IBM case.

I disagree, most IBM Model Ms are in good shape, aside from perhaps the plastic rivets which can easily be addressed with a relatively simple bolt/screw mod.  Even those that are worse off are not difficult to rescue and doing so is much cheaper than buying a Unicomp just for its inferior internals.

My first M was made in 1986, and I got it around 1993.  I was at some guys place about something entirely else, though related to computers, and then I noticed he had a pile(!) of them laying around on the floor.  It must have been 10 or 15 of them.  Since I needed to replace my keyboard anyway, I took a look at them and immediately realized that this was the most awesome keyboard I had ever seen.  I'd have bought at least two of them, but he would sell me only one.  Perhaps he already knew what kind of treasure he had there.

I've never been able to get another one which was as good, and the more recently bought, the worse they were.  However, that particular one had a problem with the detachable cable which was somehow lose in the connector at the keyboard.  When it was slightly moved, the LEDs would all come on and the keyboard stopped working, and I had to reboot to get it working again.  So that wasn't perfect, either.

Nowadays, it's a gamble when you buy one off ebay because you can't try them out first.  And what other way is there to get one?

The last one I got has a broken Del key which you have to press ridiculously hard to make it register, and the right Ctrl key is sticky.  I guess its barrel is worn out so much that the key would need a stabilizer to still work fine.  I could probably fix the Del key by somehow replacing the spring if I had one, but what could I do about the sticky Ctrl key?  I simply mapped Del to Ins, which I almost never use.  Yet I need it for the movement when I play games, so I can't play any game that requires movement with that keyboard.

It's really not like the IBMs don't wear at all.  The keys on the Unicomp are a lot stiffer to press and a lot tighter than the ones on the IBM.  So even if you were to replace all the springs ---if you can somehow get them and figure out how to do that and  if you have the time to do all that --- you can't replace the worn barrels.  Before doing all that, what would speak against just swapping it all  out with Unicomp internals?  That probably takes only half an hour or so, and you are the closest to a new model M as you can get, unless you're really lucky or put out a lot of money when you find a NOS one (which still isn't as new as a new Unicomp, it'only hasn't been used).

The Unicomp internals may be inferior in that they use flimsy wiring --- which you could fix.  Maybe the backplate is a bit thinner, just as the later IBMs aren't as nice as the more recently built ones.  Perhaps you can also fix that by swapping the plate from the IBM to the Unicomp.  The Unicomp internals work fine, and they aren't worn out to begin with, so they actually work much better than the worn out internals of the IBM .  In that regard, the Unicomp has better quality than any IBM I've ever seen (which were all used ones, so I'm not saying that Unicomp internals are better or worse than new IBM interrnals).

As to prices, they have gone up since 1993 by a factor of 10+.  Expect to pay at least EUR 75 for a model M.  It can even be cheaper or same price to import one from the US despite the additional costs.  That makes a new Unicomp about the same price as an IBM here --- if you can get one at all.  Like someone said earlier, they'd be well advised to fix their website if they want customers, and/or sell them via ebay for the international shipping program they have.  That's how I got my Unicomp.

Of course, the swap is only priceworthy when you already have the IBM.  If you want a buckling spring keyboard for its function, buy new from Unicomp, unless you do have good reasons for wanting a "true" model M and are willing to put up with one that doesn't function as well as the Unicomp would.

Can you buy just the internals from Unicomp?  I wouldn't even need the keycaps (but would probably buy them).  Are there any problems with doing a swap like this?

Besides, currently I prefer buying keyboards new.  I've used used ones for the last 25 years or so, and used keyboards are always somewhat filthy, no matter how much you clean them.  (That's one of the reasons I would also buy key caps with the Unicomp internals.)
« Last Edit: Sun, 19 June 2016, 07:34:17 by lee+ »

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #134 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 08:12:14 »
Most Model M aficionados around here end up buying a model and vintage that they like and "making it their own" by modification.

Personally, I take them completely apart and clean each component spotless.

http://wiki.geekhack.org/index.php?title=Modifications:IBM_Model_M:Nut_and_Bolt_Mod

But I agree with you, my 1986 1390131 modded "all the way" is the best M that I own.


"However, even though I was born in the Mesozoic, I do know what anyone who wants to reach out to young people should say: Billionaires took your money. They took your chance to buy a home. They took your chance at a good education. They stole your opportunities. Billionaires took the things you want in life. If you really want those things, you have to take them back.
That's the message. That's the whole message. Say that every day, not just to reach America's frustrated young white men, but people of every age, race, and gender.
Late-stage capitalism is a wealth-concentration engine, focused on vacuuming up every dollar and putting it in as few hands as possible. Republicans are helping that vacuum suck.
How does a tiny fraction of the population get away with this? They do it by dividing the other 99% of Americans against themselves."
- Marc Sumner 2025-05-30

Offline lee+

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #135 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 11:05:35 »
Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.
LOL, no.
Ok, what's the better alternative?
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model F
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F

…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.

Ok, and where do you get these?

I'd buy an F with 122 keys if I could find one.   First I need to find out how to actually identify them and what I would need to get it to work on my computer, though.

Offline need

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #136 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 11:09:12 »
Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.
LOL, no.
Ok, what's the better alternative?
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model F
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F

…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.

Ok, and where do you get these?

I'd buy an F with 122 keys if I could find one.   First I need to find out how to actually identify them and what I would need to get it to work on my computer, though.
No surprise there - eBay

Offline davkol

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #137 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 11:17:02 »
Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.
LOL, no.
Ok, what's the better alternative?
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model F
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F

…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.
Ok, and where do you get these?

I'd buy an F with 122 keys if I could find one.   First I need to find out how to actually identify them and what I would need to get it to work on my computer, though.
The same places as IBM Model M these days, in principle.

Plus, there's http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/ for new F77/F62.

…and that's still without consideration for human factors other than familiarity.

Offline supamesican

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #138 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 11:32:02 »
Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.
LOL, no.
Ok, what's the better alternative?
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model F
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F

…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.

so basically only used keyboards if I follow what you mean when you bring up the f?

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #139 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 11:58:28 »
Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.
LOL, no.
Ok, what's the better alternative?
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model F
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F

…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.

so basically only used keyboards if I follow what you mean when you bring up the f?

Kishsaver is a Model F (F62) and those are made to order afaik. If you find a 100+ key Model F that is new in box buy it! It would be cool to know why Unicomp doesn't make Model F tkl/full-size boards
(sold) Chris Schammert (Christopher Schammert)

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #140 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 12:01:07 »

First I need to find out how to actually identify them and what I would need to get it to work on my computer, though.


If you are in the US, I might have a spare to sell you, but international is prohibitive due to cost and risk.

Here is the process:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.msg1048948#msg1048948

Look for a label like this:
"However, even though I was born in the Mesozoic, I do know what anyone who wants to reach out to young people should say: Billionaires took your money. They took your chance to buy a home. They took your chance at a good education. They stole your opportunities. Billionaires took the things you want in life. If you really want those things, you have to take them back.
That's the message. That's the whole message. Say that every day, not just to reach America's frustrated young white men, but people of every age, race, and gender.
Late-stage capitalism is a wealth-concentration engine, focused on vacuuming up every dollar and putting it in as few hands as possible. Republicans are helping that vacuum suck.
How does a tiny fraction of the population get away with this? They do it by dividing the other 99% of Americans against themselves."
- Marc Sumner 2025-05-30

Offline davkol

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #141 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 12:15:33 »
It would be cool to know why Unicomp doesn't make Model F tkl/full-size boards
Unicomp uses Lexmark's tooling. Lexmark didn't make Model F AFAIK. OG IBM's tooling isn't available.

Unicomp isn't competent enough (or doesn't care) to make even SSK Model M. Meanwhile, you can look up the effort and resources, that went into Ellipse's Model F rebuild project.

Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #142 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 12:20:25 »
Lee, in my opinion, you've had a run of bad luck with your Model M purchases. None of the Model M's I've purchased from eBay has had issues with the connection port, and I don't remember sticky keys being an issue. I realize some people do have issues from time to time, but from what I've seen it's the exception rather than the rule. Personally, I've always purchased Model M's that were advertised as tested and working, and the Model M's I currently own are serious workhorses.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #143 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 12:24:01 »
It would be cool to know why Unicomp doesn't make Model F tkl/full-size boards
Unicomp uses Lexmark's tooling. Lexmark didn't make Model F AFAIK. OG IBM's tooling isn't available.

Unicomp isn't competent enough (or doesn't care) to make even SSK Model M. Meanwhile, you can look up the effort and resources, that went into Ellipse's Model F rebuild project.

Ah ok, I mentioned the Kishsaver (F62) in the post you quoted because I'm a bit excited about the modern case that is currently marked for pre-order :) Thanks for clearing up that question, I figured the reasoning might have something to do with tooling but I wasn't 100% sure.

(sold) Chris Schammert (Christopher Schammert)

Offline lee+

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #144 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 12:59:58 »
Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.
LOL, no.
Ok, what's the better alternative?
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model F
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F

…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.
Ok, and where do you get these?

I'd buy an F with 122 keys if I could find one.   First I need to find out how to actually identify them and what I would need to get it to work on my computer, though.
The same places as IBM Model M these days, in principle.

Plus, there's http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/ for new F77/F62.

…and that's still without consideration for human factors other than familiarity.

That will probably take a long search.

I considered buying one of these new F77s, but I'm not fully convinced.  I prefer full size keyboards which have room to put stuff onto them, and having even fewer keys than the common 102 is questionable.  It's an awesome project, though.  If they were to make 122 key versions, I probably couldn't resist.

Offline supamesican

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #145 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 13:03:05 »
Both Unicomp and IBM Model Ms are the most reliable and solid tool to get the job done.
LOL, no.
Ok, what's the better alternative?
reliable: keyboards, that don't rely on a membrane; e.g., Model F
solid: predecessors; e.g., Model F

…and human factors haven't even entered the equation.

so basically only used keyboards if I follow what you mean when you bring up the f?

Kishsaver is a Model F (F62) and those are made to order afaik. If you find a 100+ key Model F that is new in box buy it! It would be cool to know why Unicomp doesn't make Model F tkl/full-size boards

unicomp doesnt have the tooling. I didnt know kishaver boards were made to order I thought they were just a one time mass buy. I may get one later when I have money for them.  I love my model f right now but new things would be nice too

Offline lee+

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #146 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 13:04:13 »

First I need to find out how to actually identify them and what I would need to get it to work on my computer, though.


If you are in the US, I might have a spare to sell you, but international is prohibitive due to cost and risk.

Here is the process:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.msg1048948#msg1048948

Look for a label like this:

Shipping would probably cost about 65.  If you'd sell it via ebay, it would probably be a lot less.

So they are actually labled F1, I didn't know that.  Do you use one of these adapters to connect it?

Offline lee+

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #147 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 13:16:47 »
Lee, in my opinion, you've had a run of bad luck with your Model M purchases. None of the Model M's I've purchased from eBay has had issues with the connection port, and I don't remember sticky keys being an issue. I realize some people do have issues from time to time, but from what I've seen it's the exception rather than the rule. Personally, I've always purchased Model M's that were advertised as tested and working, and the Model M's I currently own are serious workhorses.

You might have better luck with them because there's probably a much larger supply of them still around in the US.  They have become rare here years ago and become rarer all the time.

The Ctrl key wasn't sticky when I got it, it only became so after a couple years of use.  It's ok when I press it in the middle, yet many times I happen to press it at the side and then it 's just annoying.

Now I really love to type on this Omron keyboard I got.  It feels just great, almost as if it was made just for me.

Offline 1391406

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #148 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 13:25:52 »
Lee, in my opinion, you've had a run of bad luck with your Model M purchases. None of the Model M's I've purchased from eBay has had issues with the connection port, and I don't remember sticky keys being an issue. I realize some people do have issues from time to time, but from what I've seen it's the exception rather than the rule. Personally, I've always purchased Model M's that were advertised as tested and working, and the Model M's I currently own are serious workhorses.

The Ctrl key wasn't sticky when I got it, it only became so after a couple years of use.  It's ok when I press it in the middle, yet many times I happen to press it at the side and then it 's just annoying.

Ironically, I had something similar happen with my Unicomp. Swapping the offending key with a new (or different) one fixed it.
Unicomp Classic | Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blues) | IBM Model M (1391401) | IBM XT Model F | IBM AT Model F | Dell AT101W | 122-key IBM Model F
IBM Model M13 | Apple Extended Keyboard | Apple Extended Keyboard II | MTEK K104 | NTC KB-6251/2 | Realforce 87U | Realforce 104U | Type Heaven

Offline lee+

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Re: Unicomp keyboards: Charms of their own?
« Reply #149 on: Sun, 19 June 2016, 16:00:40 »
Lee, in my opinion, you've had a run of bad luck with your Model M purchases. None of the Model M's I've purchased from eBay has had issues with the connection port, and I don't remember sticky keys being an issue. I realize some people do have issues from time to time, but from what I've seen it's the exception rather than the rule. Personally, I've always purchased Model M's that were advertised as tested and working, and the Model M's I currently own are serious workhorses.

The Ctrl key wasn't sticky when I got it, it only became so after a couple years of use.  It's ok when I press it in the middle, yet many times I happen to press it at the side and then it 's just annoying.

Ironically, I had something similar happen with my Unicomp. Swapping the offending key with a new (or different) one fixed it.

Good to know, I thought of that earlier today :)  I could take one from the Unicomp and stick it to the IBM and see what happens :)

That still leaves the Del key ... IIRC the spring in it is deformed.