Author Topic: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?  (Read 8769 times)

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Offline Vozella

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What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« on: Wed, 13 January 2016, 18:15:58 »
What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout? I don't mean to be rude. I just don't know. Why are there less keys?

Offline iAmAhab

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 13 January 2016, 19:48:23 »
Because it looks so good.

Offline inanis

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 13 January 2016, 20:05:21 »
You don't need all those keys on the bottom row. How many do you actually use in a normal layout? Less than half probably.
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Offline Vozella

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 13 January 2016, 20:13:59 »
You don't need all those keys on the bottom row. How many do you actually use in a normal layout? Less than half probably.
I just use the control and the spacebar.
Okay. I get it now.

Offline wockytocky

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 13 January 2016, 21:59:01 »
It's still just wasted space. A 60% layout with a full bottom row gives you plenty of room for dedicated arrow keys, macros, layer-switching, and anything else you could want

Offline nmur

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 13 January 2016, 22:09:03 »
the empty corners on the hhkb are terrible positions for keys, especially for ctrl, which is used extensively. reaching for that key usually requires you to bend your wrist and contort your pinky finger.

the ctrl key on the hhkb is moved to the caps lock position, which is a much more comfortable and accessible location for a modifier key. caps lock is barely used so it was moved to the fn layer.

since the ctrls have moved, there's no need to have any other key in their old location

Offline Bucake

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 01:28:42 »
a lot of keyboards have 2xCtrl 2xAlt 2xWin, as well as that context menu key.
haha, how many people actually use all 7 of them?
i only "miss" the key in the bottom left because i had it bound in a couple of games.

on my HHKB, the 4 keys at the bottom row are LCtrl, LAlt, Tab, RWin
this Ctrl position is not ideal for every shortcut, but for a lot of them it's actually a very nice spot.
(where caps lock usually is, is a Layer for me.)

It's still just wasted space. A 60% layout with a full bottom row gives you plenty of room for dedicated arrow keys, macros, layer-switching, and anything else you could want

i guess i agree. they might as well have filled the empty spaces up with a few more keys.
i don't really miss them, however. and i like how the hhkb looks, so whatever :cool:
« Last Edit: Thu, 14 January 2016, 01:33:45 by Bucake »
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Offline davkol

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 06:16:37 »

Offline keshley

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 06:30:47 »
It's still just wasted space. A 60% layout with a full bottom row gives you plenty of room for dedicated arrow keys, macros, layer-switching, and anything else you could want

It all depends on your usage. I never have to move away from home-row when using my HHKB, which makes it both efficient and fast when I'm doing keyboard heavy work. And that includes movement keys (arrows, page up/down, home/end), function row, and chords. When I'm doing mouse heavy work, I prefer a TKL.

When I was using a Pok3r exclusively, I still didn't use all those extra programmable keys. The whole point of a 60% is efficiency of movement. HHKB does this better than other 60% boards.

FWIW, I use TMK on my HHKB, so its fully programmable.

It'd be interesting to see how many people use the left side control and alt keys. I'm guessing left handed mouse users - the right side keys are used. Right handed mouse users - left side keys. But then most used chords are on the left side of the keyboard, so that may not even hold true.
  
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Offline dgneo

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 08:15:45 »
It's still just wasted space. A 60% layout with a full bottom row gives you plenty of room for dedicated arrow keys, macros, layer-switching, and anything else you could want

It's personal preference more than anything. I have no issues using the Arrow Keys on my HHKB, only takes 1 extra finger for them to work.

As Keshley said, if you really want to get fancy, you can always get Hasu's Controller for a fully programmable setup.

Offline tronbeaver

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 09:43:52 »
Get a Pok3r.  Has all the keys you need.

Offline whmeltonjr

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 11:20:14 »
Get a Pok3r.  Has all the keys you need.

Having owned both, the layout on the HHKB is more enjoyable/efficient to use than the Pok3r. I programmed the Caps Lock out on the Pok3r, but still would give the HHKB the edge.

Offline oneproduct

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 12:41:27 »
How come it's acceptable to move your right hand over to hold the Fn key on a HHKB to use the arrow keys but not move your hand down to left Ctrl and use ZXCVS (common keys used with Ctrl)?

There's nothing that prevents you from getting a keyboard that has more of those keys on the bottom and then just remap them elsewhere and not use those positions. The HHKB just removes that possibility. You could argue that it makes it prettier, but it's easy to argue that the empty corners look ugly and are wasted opportunity for those who might want it. You could argue that the layout is more efficient, but for a reprogrammable keyboard that could mimic that layout but then also have extra keys, I find it hard to argue that the physical hardware of the HHKB would be more efficient.

The argument that you don't need the control position because you can put control where caps lock is is also a silly argument because you could put another key in that position as well. I put backspace there for example. Even when moving backspace to \| on the HHKB it's still a stretch to reach backspace and I'd wager that backspace is used far more frequently than control.

There are arguments to be made for less is more, but when the overall size is the same and you just decide to leave empty space the argument is a bit less convincing. If you could eliminate an entire row without greatly affecting function and make the keyboard physically smaller I'm all for it.

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Offline zslane

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 14:34:07 »
It'd be interesting to see how many people use the left side control and alt keys.

Yeah, I never use the right side keys next to the space bar. They are just decoration for all intents and purposes. However, if Vortex would allow the FN and PN keys of the Pok3r to be programmed on alternate layers, I could use them as arrow keys. But on all my full ANSI 104 keyboards, those right-hand keys just take up space.

On my future "Space Cadet" board, I plan to put square/circle/triangle/diamond keys there, just to make it look cool. But I have no practical use for them, to be honest.

However, I don't think I could get used to having Ctrl above the Shift key, rather than below it. Back in the day, when I used old terminal keyboards, that was the standard, but I've long since remapped my muscle memory to expect Ctrl to be in the lower left corner. For that reason alone, I could never be an HHKB user.

Offline KRKS

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 16:00:33 »
How come it's acceptable to move your right hand over to hold the Fn key on a HHKB to use the arrow keys but not move your hand down to left Ctrl and use ZXCVS (common keys used with Ctrl)?

The intended user of HHKB uses something like Vim or Emacs, both of which have a different workflow than your average editor. And even then, both are fully rebindable and support very extensive macros. But the general gist of it is that you don't access the Fn layer as often as you'd think(in fact, mr. Wada designed the board without it, and it was added by PFU)
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Offline oneproduct

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 22:46:41 »
I'm a Vim user, yet not every program allows me to use Vim commands and in those cases it's still nice to have a key in the control position. And even in Vim I still want to use the control key in the control position because my caps lock has already been mapped to something else.

I'm sure that the majority of HHKB users here probably use the Fn layer quite frequently as it's fairly evident from people's other forum posts that most people buying these fancy keyboards are not programmers, Vim users, interested in particularly fancy reprogrammed layers, ergonomics/minimizing motion or in some cases even capable of touch typing! Most people seem to just want fancy keyboards because they're cool and feel nice.
« Last Edit: Thu, 14 January 2016, 22:53:00 by oneproduct »
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Offline Bucake

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 15 January 2016, 00:31:55 »
you think it's wrong to want a keyboard because it feels nice..? ;D
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Offline joen

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 15 January 2016, 06:18:56 »
More options doesn't necessarily make things better.
Even before I got a HHKB I remapped the Caps Lock key to control, so for me it's nice to have it there.
I quite like the layout of the HHKB and I totally love the feel of the Topre switches.
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Offline oneproduct

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 15 January 2016, 21:27:45 »
you think it's wrong to want a keyboard because it feels nice..? ;D

Not at all. :)

More options doesn't necessarily make things better.
Even before I got a HHKB I remapped the Caps Lock key to control, so for me it's nice to have it there.
I quite like the layout of the HHKB and I totally love the feel of the Topre switches.

I agree, but there are certain cases where less options make more sense. For example, there's a blank space between F4 and F5 on "normal" keyboards and it helps to locate the keys easier, so in this case having "less options" by putting in blank spaces makes sense because it provides a benefit. I wouldn't want to stick in extra keys in that space like some variations of the Phantom do. However, since the HHKB has the same form factor as a 60% keyboard and the empty spaces aren't helping to provide physical separation, I find that the "less options" argument is less viable.

I have an IBM displaywriter keyboard which is missing the corners just like the HHKB and just feel that it's terribly wasted space/potential. Everything is subjective though.
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Offline phosphoric

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 10:14:22 »

you think it's wrong to want a keyboard because it feels nice..? ;D

Not at all. :)

More options doesn't necessarily make things better.
Even before I got a HHKB I remapped the Caps Lock key to control, so for me it's nice to have it there.
I quite like the layout of the HHKB and I totally love the feel of the Topre switches.

I agree, but there are certain cases where less options make more sense. For example, there's a blank space between F4 and F5 on "normal" keyboards and it helps to locate the keys easier, so in this case having "less options" by putting in blank spaces makes sense because it provides a benefit. I wouldn't want to stick in extra keys in that space like some variations of the Phantom do. However, since the HHKB has the same form factor as a 60% keyboard and the empty spaces aren't helping to provide physical separation, I find that the "less options" argument is less viable.

I have an IBM displaywriter keyboard which is missing the corners just like the HHKB and just feel that it's terribly wasted space/potential. Everything is subjective though.
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agreed - it's impossible to make the argument that the hhkb layout is superior to a normal 60% layout when a normal 60% layout provides the exact same functions that the hhkb allows for, sans the fn and split backspace keys, but both of those are easily integrated in any custom build (albeit not in topre). the hhkb is really the only option for a topre 60% board which is why its layout is so blindly and viciously defended. topre is an amazing switch, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't warrant the cult following that bashes the traditional backspace position and defends decreased functionality on a keyboard.

on top of that, it makes it even harder to argue that the hhkb layout is good (despite its multiple dip switch configurations - more than any normal keyboard) when it costs an additional $43 on top of $200 odd JUST to remap the keys where you'd like to - and, again, the functionality of hasu's controller is limited by the missing keys on the bottom row. if you don't use the right modifier keys, rebind them to arcane shortcuts! use them because they're there for a reason - to be pressed, not to be deemed ignorantly that they're entirely useless and a waste of space.

it completely befuddles me that people will pay $200 for the 45g variant of topre without options of customizability, and i even bought into the hype. maybe the pro3 will offer multiple weight options and actual customizability and fn layers... maybe then it can justify the $200 pricetag.

i love the 60% layout and believe it genuinely superior to anything else, but as it stands, i'd rather spend that $200 on a realforce.
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Offline KRKS

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 11:40:25 »
it's impossible to make the argument that the hhkb layout is superior to a normal 60% layout when a normal 60% layout provides the exact same functions that the hhkb allows for, sans the fn and split backspace keys, but both of those are easily integrated in any custom build (albeit not in topre). the hhkb is really the only option for a topre 60% board which is why its layout is so blindly and viciously defended.

Then explain all those customs with HHKB layout
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Offline phosphoric

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 11:43:40 »

it's impossible to make the argument that the hhkb layout is superior to a normal 60% layout when a normal 60% layout provides the exact same functions that the hhkb allows for, sans the fn and split backspace keys, but both of those are easily integrated in any custom build (albeit not in topre). the hhkb is really the only option for a topre 60% board which is why its layout is so blindly and viciously defended.

Then explain all those customs with HHKB layout

familiar interface. of course youre not gonna change from a layout that works for you if you dont have to.
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Offline zslane

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 11:59:05 »

it's impossible to make the argument that the hhkb layout is superior to a normal 60% layout when a normal 60% layout provides the exact same functions that the hhkb allows for, sans the fn and split backspace keys, but both of those are easily integrated in any custom build (albeit not in topre). the hhkb is really the only option for a topre 60% board which is why its layout is so blindly and viciously defended.

Then explain all those customs with HHKB layout

familiar interface. of course youre not gonna change from a layout that works for you if you dont have to.

So, what is lacking in an actual HHKB that motivates people to make a custom board with the HHKB layout?

Offline phosphoric

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What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:06:25 »

it's impossible to make the argument that the hhkb layout is superior to a normal 60% layout when a normal 60% layout provides the exact same functions that the hhkb allows for, sans the fn and split backspace keys, but both of those are easily integrated in any custom build (albeit not in topre). the hhkb is really the only option for a topre 60% board which is why its layout is so blindly and viciously defended.

Then explain all those customs with HHKB layout

familiar interface. of course youre not gonna change from a layout that works for you if you dont have to.

So, what is lacking in an actual HHKB that motivates people to make a custom board with the HHKB layout?

i'm not saying that people that are used to the hhkb layout are going to go out of their way to make something different even if it does provide higher usability; i'm just pointing out that the functions of an hhkb layout are easy to integrate in a custom build with the extra keys that provide for more usability - custom keyboards are still a matter of preference and a lot of soul goes into building them, and humans aren't rational creatures, so if somebody is used to the hhkb layout or likes how it looks, theyre going to make their custom keyboard with the hhkb layout. this doesn't change the fact that you can do a normal bottom row with the additional keys that make the hhkb special, however.

can you explain how hhkb bottom row > standard bottom row outside of the aesthetic realm? i'll admit to that the hhkb bottom row's symmetry is soothing, but i refuse to submit to the illogical ideology that less = more in terms of an interface that is based entirely on buttons, sans an ergonomic standpoint, a point made moot by the fact that you still need to move your hands from the homerow to press any of the bottom row modifiers and by the fact that the wasted space is in the same footprint as a traditional 60% layout
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:17:59 by phosphoric »
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Offline oneproduct

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:22:18 »
Since it's subjective, the point that I'm trying to prove now is that it is hard to argue that the HHKB is superior in its layout, not that people can't like it.

If you know for certain that you don't need certain keys, then that's fine. It becomes less fine when you try to preach it as the best layout, which is something common in the HHKB crowd.

Let's take an easier example with winkeyless keyboards. Some people don't need a windows key or are frustrated by hitting it by mistake. I use my windows key on a daily basis for:

win + start typing = search for files/programs
win+d = show desktop
win+e = explorer
win+r = run
win+up = maximize
win+down =minimize
win+shift+left = move window to left screen (for multiple physical screens)

If you have windows 10 there are virtual desktops, which are fantastic:

WINKEY + TAB: Enter Task View and access virtual desktops.
WINKEY + CTRL + LEFT and WINKEY + CTRL + RIGHT: Switch between virtual desktops.
WINKEY + CTRL + D: Create a new virtual [D]esktop.
WINKEY + CTRL + F4: Close the current virtual desktop.

The menu key is also fantastic so you don't need to right click with a mouse.

Anyways, the point is it's fine to like winkeyless keyboards as well, but not when you start to preach that they are superior. I also feel that people who like winkeyless keyboards just aren't aware of all the amazing things you can do with the windows key, or simply are not "power" users in that sense (they may be power users in different computer related senses).

So the HHKB, like the winkeyless keyboard, gives up something which may not be required for some people, but which is important to others. If you don't need it, it's fine.
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Offline zslane

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:26:39 »
so if somebody is used to the hhkb layout or likes how it looks, theyre going to make their custom keyboard with the hhkb layout.

I guess what I'm asking is, why wouldn't someone who is used to the HHKB layout simply buy an HHKB? Why are they bothering to make a custom board at all when there exists a keyboard with the layout they like already? What's wrong with an HHKB?

Offline oneproduct

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:28:04 »
so if somebody is used to the hhkb layout or likes how it looks, theyre going to make their custom keyboard with the hhkb layout.

I guess what I'm asking is, why wouldn't someone who is used to the HHKB layout simply buy an HHKB? Why are they bothering to make a custom board at all when there exists a keyboard with the layout they like already? What's wrong with an HHKB?

Because people like different switches, metal cases, etc. Or they want the HHKB's physical layout but want to reprogram it.
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Offline zslane

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:38:54 »
so if somebody is used to the hhkb layout or likes how it looks, theyre going to make their custom keyboard with the hhkb layout.

I guess what I'm asking is, why wouldn't someone who is used to the HHKB layout simply buy an HHKB? Why are they bothering to make a custom board at all when there exists a keyboard with the layout they like already? What's wrong with an HHKB?

Because people like different switches, metal cases, etc. Or they want the HHKB's physical layout but want to reprogram it.

I thought the HHKB was highly programmable. Am I misunderstanding what it is capable of?

I also got the impression that the combination of HHKB layout and Topre switches was God's gift to typists. What could possibly trump it?

Offline phosphoric

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 12:40:51 »

so if somebody is used to the hhkb layout or likes how it looks, theyre going to make their custom keyboard with the hhkb layout.

I guess what I'm asking is, why wouldn't someone who is used to the HHKB layout simply buy an HHKB? Why are they bothering to make a custom board at all when there exists a keyboard with the layout they like already? What's wrong with an HHKB?

Because people like different switches, metal cases, etc. Or they want the HHKB's physical layout but want to reprogram it.

I thought the HHKB was highly programmable. Am I misunderstanding what it is capable of?

I also got the impression that the combination of HHKB layout and Topre switches was God's gift to typists. What could possibly trump it?

the hhkb layout is nonprogrammable until you add hasu's controller - and the impression you got is from a ton of very biased users. their preferences aren't wrong, because the keyboard you like is subjective, so their opinions are rarely argued against
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Offline davkol

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 13:44:34 »
Original HHKB didn't have Topre switches, and didn't have Fn key(s) with the respective layer. It's basically an Apple M0110 keyboard w/ Unix layout.

Keep in mind, that input devices go hand in hand with user interfaces, that they're supposed to control. Apple keyboards are tied with Apple's Human Interface Guidelines; IBM Model M (and its clones) is tied with IBM Common User Access, and MS Windows' UI has been designed around it (with the introduction of Win keys); Unix shells, vi and even the C language are all influenced by keyboards, that were used with certain terminals back in the day; and so on and so on.

HHKB was designed for a specific environment, and it's well usable there. Some current interfaces are quite similar (e.g., OS X), others are not (e.g., Windows).

Offline joen

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 15:48:40 »
It might be that people that buy, like and defend the HHKB simply doesn't care that there is space "wasted" for potential keys and really aren't that interested in having multiple fn-layers.
If I was more interested in those things I guess I wouldn't use the HHKB, but I rather take Topres with the HHKB layout over customizability.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 15:59:05 »
The corner keys in the "60% block" on a standard-layout keyboard are stupid and unreachable, and putting keys there is the path to inefficiency and RSI.

With blue dots representing the resting positions of the fingers, I’ve highlighted in purple all the keys which are an uncomfortable slow stretch and in red all the keys which require significant repositioning of the hand on a standard ANSI/TKL keyboard.

What’s worse, the hands are so close together that several keys are easy for both index fingers to reach, a waste of potential. Finally, the spacebar is too close to the rest of the keys, and way too huge, a dramatic waste of potential for the thumbs. When you also consider that the one-piece design forces pronation of the wrists almost to their limit, and the way most people type also encourages wrist extension and ulnar deviation, the keyboard is just an ergonomic disaster.

Here’s a more schematic diagram I made to try to show how stupid the standard ANSI layout is. Look how totally arbitrary the organization of different color blocks is, how asymmetrical, and how unrelated the shape is to human hands:


Here are some better alternative ideas, some nearly standard for ease of learning and some more radically improved:








From that interview with Prof. Wada linked upthread, he clearly had the right idea at the start:
Quote
My original layout of HHKB had no Fn keys, no digit keys, no arrow keys. But PFU concluded that commercial keyboards needed these function keys.

For anyone designing their own DIY keyboard, I highly recommend ditching or repurposing the number row. Typing numbers via the top row of the keyboard is incredibly inefficient and unfriendly, compared to having the numbers on a layer near the fingers’ resting positions. Likewise for arrows, F keys, etc.
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 January 2016, 17:26:04 by jacobolus »

Offline zslane

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Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 19:09:39 »
I am so used to the ANSI layout that it would be a pointless waste of time, at my age, to unlearn it and learn something else. In 35 years of typing on that layout (or its vintage equivalents back in the day), I've not acquired any RSI or joint pain. I am a normal, healthy human being who knows how to touch type and has no issues with shifting his left hand down a bit to chord LCTRL with his left pinky. Why in the world would I go looking for something else? Not only am I unlikely to gain more than a few wpm in typing speed, I don't need more wpm of typing speed.

When someone takes on a project to build a board with their own custom layout, it is usually the project they want, not the board.   :p

(That's my own variant of the old adage: When two men fight over a girl, it is usually the fight they want, not the girl.)

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 16 January 2016, 20:45:01 »
When someone takes on a project to build a board with their own custom layout, it is usually the project they want, not the board.   :p
Fortunately not everyone has to design their own custom layout and build their own keyboard from scratch, in order to get something better than ANSI. It’s entirely possible to use someone else’s existing better design, with options ranging from pre-built keyboards, to kits requiring some assembly, to design sketches requiring full DIY. For instance ...

... a μTRON ...


... a Maltron ...


... an Ergodox ...


... an Atreus ...


... an ErgoPro ...


... a Keyboardio ...


Quote
I am so used to the ANSI layout that it would be a pointless waste of time, at my age, to unlearn it and learn something else. In 35 years of typing on that layout (or its vintage equivalents back in the day), I've not acquired any RSI or joint pain. I am a normal, healthy human being who knows how to touch type and has no issues with shifting his left hand down a bit to chord LCTRL with his left pinky. Why in the world would I go looking for something else? Not only am I unlikely to gain more than a few wpm in typing speed, I don't need more wpm of typing speed.
If more comfortable and efficient keyboarding isn’t a priority for you, that’s entirely fine. If you only ever type for a couple hours a day, you can take frequent breaks, and you don’t have any desire to spend brain cycles thinking about human–computer interfaces or analyzing your workflow, great. You can spend your effort and attention on something else. (In that case, I’m not quite sure why you’re on geekhack though.)

Similarly, if you always eat at restaurants or limit your home cooking to scrambled eggs and spaghetti, it’s not worthwhile spending a bunch of time and money on fancy knives, pots, cookbooks, and kitchen appliances.

To extend the argument, there are all kinds of aspects of our built environment which are suboptimal (sometimes downright hostile) for human use. Pretty much everything we do – what we eat, how we dress, how we wash ourselves, how we organize our time, what we do for entertainment, how our homes and cities are laid out, the user interfaces on all our gadgets, our language and writing system, our social, political, and economic structures, our mathematical notations and conventions, etc. – is constrained by path-dependant cultural traditions. The “easy” road through life is to accept, prima facie, the context where you’re born, never try to learn how or why anything works the way it does, and never bother to redesign anything from first principles.

However, note: it’s a simple fact that many people end up severely injuring themselves with excessive and stressful keyboard use. For some of these people, using a computer efficiently is an integral part of their work or some major hobby. Many others avoid hand/wrist injuries by sitting in awkward postures which shift strain to their shoulders, neck, and back, and end up with back pain or compromised mobility in old age.

Even for those who can type in a way which avoids injury, the design of the standard keyboard and mouse causes frequent tiny interruptions to flow, which in aggregate make a significant difference in people’s ability to undertake difficult creative projects or reduce peak performance in speed-sensitive work such as transcription, data entry, professional photo retouching, or video games.
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 January 2016, 21:11:11 by jacobolus »

Offline Bucake

  • Posts: 945
  • Location: The Netherlands
Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 00:37:30 »
Show Image


dunno why, but that's just the most beautiful keyboard i've seen.
hopefully i'll have one, one day!
IBM Model F XT // Realforce 87U 55g Type-S // HHKBP2 45g Type-S // KBT Pure Pro Cherry MX Red

Offline zslane

  • Posts: 2303
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 00:48:22 »
A keyboard is just a tool. The ANSI layout gets the job done just fine. I need an alternate layout about as much as I need a car with the driver's seat on the right side.

Offline logomachy

  • Posts: 61
Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 07:20:14 »
[some long-winded diatribe]

You simply don't get it - ANSI is optimized for ****posting.

Offline Hypersphere

  • Posts: 1886
  • Location: USA
Re: What is the point of the HHKB's bottom row layout?
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 17 January 2016, 08:34:40 »
There are fewer keys on the right to make room for the HHKB logo. After doing that, they lopped off keys on the left for balance. ;)