Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 267180 times)

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Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1850 on: Sat, 13 October 2018, 04:05:40 »
Great, I've asked orihalcon to get in touch with those expressing interest as he's the only one who sells the solenoid driver xwhatsit add on board.
I'd love one too if it wasn't too much trouble to install. I was previously wondering if there was some sort of USB controlled solenoid that could be retrofitted relatively easily to any keyboard but nothing came of that.

Offline snevok

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1851 on: Sun, 14 October 2018, 11:32:00 »
I'd definitely be interested in a solenoid too.

Offline JohnSmith4623

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1852 on: Sun, 14 October 2018, 17:21:22 »
I too would be interested in a solenoid, though I don't know how much I would use it, but as long as it's toggle-able it sounds like it would be pretty neat to install. Sounds like we just have to buy the solenoid and then hook it up to the headers already on the USB controller correct and screw it into the case? I'm a bit new to this stuff haha.

Offline ChemicalHalo

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1853 on: Sun, 14 October 2018, 18:03:02 »
I am sorry for cluttering up the thread, but I think a solenoid would be a great addition.

Please link a GB/IC thread here if it happens!

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1854 on: Sun, 14 October 2018, 19:52:34 »
I believe orihalcon has the xwhatsit solenoid drivers in stock and you can order them directly from him.  You can also order the solenoid from the aliexpress link posted earlier - so there will not likely be a requirement for a separate group buy for the solenoids. 

For anyone interested in the solenoid please feel free to contact orihalcon directly and/or continue posting interest here.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1855 on: Sun, 21 October 2018, 08:50:57 »
Over on DT there is discussion on alternative solenoids - if anyone has any advice or recommendations on using modern solenoids please let us know.

Offline Zobeid Zuma

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1856 on: Fri, 26 October 2018, 07:28:01 »
As we wait through this final stretch of the whole manufacturing quest, which has been so much longer than many of us anticipated…  I find that my taste in keyboards has actually changed a fair bit since the time when I placed my order, and I'm dithering over whether I should change my order, assuming that's even possible now.  With all the parts already produced, it would be perfectly understandable if it can't be changed.  On the other hand, the website appears to still be taking new orders for this first production run?

Like so many before me, I've given 60% keyboards a try, and I've learned that they actually work pretty well for me.  Thus, here I am scratching my head and wondering if I would prefer the F62 instead of the F77 that I put in for.  The F62 is arguably better looking, space saving, and would let me keep the keyboard closer to my mouse as I have become accustomed now.  And those extra 15 keys, well…  What are they really good for?

It would be so much better if the 15-key pad was on the left instead of the right.  But you know, it's a replica of the IBM, from an era before there was any such thing as a "mouse".  They designed it the way they designed it, and it is what it is.

On the other hand, I've been using a split-spacebar keyboard (Banana Split 60) with a FN key right in the center, so I can simply press down my thumb and have all my nav keys right under my fingertips.  Obviously the F62 doesn't have that.  (Again, it is what it is.)  So I'd be looking at:



My key assignments are all based on Linux usage, by the way.  So, I don't need Windows or Menu keys.  I love my Compose key, but it can be programmed to work with a tap of Right-Alt.

If I have to use both hands to navigate (with my right hand performing the critical task of holding down the FN key!), maybe I'd just be just as well off with the F77 anyhow.  I mean, if I've got to take my right hand off the trackball, I might as well move it to the 15-key pad and do my navigating there.



And then it occurs to me that if this thing is really good (as we all hope), then there is supposed to be a second production run (which, I assume, shouldn't take years to get done), and I could end up getting both versions anyhow.

What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: Fri, 26 October 2018, 07:29:38 by Zobeid Zuma »

Offline tron

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1857 on: Fri, 26 October 2018, 12:15:23 »
As we wait through this final stretch of the whole manufacturing quest, which has been so much longer than many of us anticipated…  I find that my taste in keyboards has actually changed a fair bit since the time when I placed my order, and I'm dithering over whether I should change my order, assuming that's even possible now.  With all the parts already produced, it would be perfectly understandable if it can't be changed.  On the other hand, the website appears to still be taking new orders for this first production run?

Like so many before me, I've given 60% keyboards a try, and I've learned that they actually work pretty well for me.  Thus, here I am scratching my head and wondering if I would prefer the F62 instead of the F77 that I put in for.  The F62 is arguably better looking, space saving, and would let me keep the keyboard closer to my mouse as I have become accustomed now.  And those extra 15 keys, well…  What are they really good for?

It would be so much better if the 15-key pad was on the left instead of the right.  But you know, it's a replica of the IBM, from an era before there was any such thing as a "mouse".  They designed it the way they designed it, and it is what it is.

On the other hand, I've been using a split-spacebar keyboard (Banana Split 60) with a FN key right in the center, so I can simply press down my thumb and have all my nav keys right under my fingertips.  Obviously the F62 doesn't have that.  (Again, it is what it is.)  So I'd be looking at:

Show Image


My key assignments are all based on Linux usage, by the way.  So, I don't need Windows or Menu keys.  I love my Compose key, but it can be programmed to work with a tap of Right-Alt.

If I have to use both hands to navigate (with my right hand performing the critical task of holding down the FN key!), maybe I'd just be just as well off with the F77 anyhow.  I mean, if I've got to take my right hand off the trackball, I might as well move it to the 15-key pad and do my navigating there.

Show Image


And then it occurs to me that if this thing is really good (as we all hope), then there is supposed to be a second production run (which, I assume, shouldn't take years to get done), and I could end up getting both versions anyhow.

What do you guys think?

It's kind of the opposite for me. I now prefer the F77 layout. It's not that much wider and it's nice to have quick access to arrow/number keys for coding and data entry tasks(although I do agree the F62 looks better and more modern vs F77). At the end of the day, I couldn't resist getting both. I could always sell one down the road if it didn't get much use.

Offline Jampu

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1858 on: Sat, 27 October 2018, 17:03:01 »
...I've been using a split-spacebar keyboard (Banana Split 60) with a FN key right in the center, so I can simply press down my thumb and have all my nav keys right under my fingertips.  Obviously the F62 doesn't have that.

Thanks to the Wheelwriter, you can in fact use a 1.5:1:2.75:7.25:1:1.5 bottom row.  This is (surprisingly) compatible with all IBM buckling spring keyboards that come with a standard or WKL bottom row, including these repro F62s and F77s.  Somehow, the F107 is my only split space keyboard so far and now it's very difficult for me to get real work done without it.  It's not the truest split space (gotta curl the left thumb a bit) but it's comfortable enough to use 24/7.

To do this, you will need to procure the following:
  • 1x Model M white stabilizer insert
  • 2x Ellipse spacebar stabilizer clip (or make your own)
  • 1x Wheelwriter "Code" key
  • 1x Wheelwriter spacebar and stabilizer wire

The installation is somewhat self-explanatory once you have the parts, but it does require attaching stabilizer clips to the barrel plate which may be troublesome depending on the route you take.  I flattened some heavy-gauge copper wire and bent it into clips which I then soldered onto the plate and spray painted over.  Removing the flipper from the right Alt key is also highly recommended.

I will try to take a few pictures for reference once I am back at work.

Offline mumford

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1859 on: Mon, 29 October 2018, 17:19:54 »

If I have to use both hands to navigate (with my right hand performing the critical task of holding down the FN key!), maybe I'd just be just as well off with the F77 anyhow.  I mean, if I've got to take my right hand off the trackball, I might as well move it to the 15-key pad and do my navigating there.


I use trackball too.  An option is to move the trackball to the left side and move the ball with left hand.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1860 on: Sat, 03 November 2018, 13:34:35 »
Updated assembled spring+flipper samples will arrive next week.  If all goes well, mass assembly of the flippers and springs can start.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1861 on: Tue, 06 November 2018, 06:54:58 »
The assembled spring samples arrived.  Machine 1 is still producing perfect assemblies but machines 2 and 3 need some adjustment.  The difference in the sound output upon key press and release is noticeable with improperly attached springs.  I have asked the factory to start full assembly with Machine 1 for now to save time.

Offline supamesican

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1862 on: Wed, 14 November 2018, 09:46:03 »
I got the HHKB style layout(I think with split shift and backspace) and a key set, should I also order the HHKB keyset? https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/front-printed-keys-f1-etc/  Thanks!

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1863 on: Fri, 16 November 2018, 18:31:28 »
supa, those extra keys will be included so no need to order it unless you want an extra set.  If you plan on using this keyboard for decades, I recommend getting extra key sets as the key top texture does wear down with extended usage.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1864 on: Mon, 26 November 2018, 23:43:35 »
I received some more assembled spring samples today.  Machine 1 is still producing approved assemblies.  Machine 3 is improved but still needs adjustment.  Machine 2 needs adjustment.  I've asked the factory to start using just Machine 1 so we can get things moving.  I sent them a quality control video showing the testing of springs and emphasizing the sound differences of good and bad assemblies.  Even a fraction of 1 mm out of spec in the distance between spring and nub causes performance and sound issues.  Also even a few degrees off for the spring angle attachment to the flipper is noticeable.  The assembly process delays are frustrating but the factory will keep making adjustments so all keyboards pass my quality control standards. 

Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1865 on: Wed, 28 November 2018, 17:13:58 »
I sent them a quality control video showing the testing of springs and emphasizing the sound differences of good and bad assemblies. 
...
The assembly process delays are frustrating but the factory will keep making adjustments so all keyboards pass my quality control standards.
Thanks for your awesome dedication and persistence. It is fantastic to have someone so passionate about the quality of the final product.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1866 on: Wed, 28 November 2018, 20:38:37 »
Thanks for the kind words Pete.  Once the other two machines are set to spec they should produce the 95%+ approval rate of spring/flipper attacher Machine 1.  I have asked them to do the basic sound testing as part of the QC - essentially a spring with some reverb is good, but with a buzzing sound or no reverb means it should be detached and reattached, and the spring should potentially be discarded.  I am not being overly particular on the length of the reverb or whatnot.

Also given this research it may be possible to mod the springs by hand if you prefer springs with less reverb - just press the springs down all the way leaving no space between bottom rung of the spring and the base of the nub on the flipper.  Given the end of the spring and the last rung of the spring obviously not being a full loop, this means the spring would be pressed in a way that makes the spring lean slightly to one side so that the entire bottom surface of the spring is as close to the base of the nub as possible.  I will not be modding this for any orders though.

Offline EvergreenTree

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1867 on: Fri, 30 November 2018, 20:28:19 »
Given that only one of the spring attachment machines is working currently, what would the current ETA be?

Also, I agree with Pete.  Even though the impatient part of my brain wants it now, I know how important it is to get it right.  I understand and appreciate all of the work you have put into it and I hope it turns out well.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1868 on: Fri, 30 November 2018, 20:36:22 »
These should start going out early next year.  And thank you for the kind words! 

Offline Phosphero

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1869 on: Wed, 05 December 2018, 16:13:53 »
What's the deadline for ordering? Is there a maximum number that you have parts for at this point or something?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1870 on: Wed, 05 December 2018, 19:14:24 »
Yes I made extra parts and keyboards and you can still get in on the early bird round.

Offline a_ak57

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1871 on: Sat, 08 December 2018, 16:14:38 »
How easy is it to move the flippers/barrels to modify the layouts on these?  I ordered an HHKB layout, but should I decide to swap to a 2u Backspace at some point in the future, will it be manageable for someone who has done Topre dome swaps and the like?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1872 on: Sat, 08 December 2018, 17:53:24 »
Ak it should be easy to do.  I plan on making some instructional repair videos after the early bird round is delivered.