Which 60% for (Linux Tiling WM + Vim + Tmux)

[therue]

Hi guys! 

Was wondering if anyone could recommend a good 60% keyboard for a Linux Tiling WM user who will be using a lot of Vim and Tmux for Web Development?

I'll be honest though, I'm completely new to Linux - in fact, I have only just installed Arch Linux a few days ago so I certain am no master of the operating system nor am I familiar with Vim.

Nonetheless, I plan on learning a great deal about them as I'm completely in love with Linux now ^_^

If it's not too much trouble, could someone tell me what particular keys are most crucial in Vim, and what type of keyboard, layout are preferred? Are function keys used a lot? or ctrl+, alt+, shift+ type combinations?

As a keyboard novice with no prior experience in the realm of mechanical keyboard, HHKB Pro 2 and Vortex Pok3r seem to have pretty good followings from what I've seen from the online communities. Is it a fair assessment that these two should be the two to choose from in regards to 60% keyboards for what I will be using it for?

HHKB pro 2:



Vortex Pok3r:


While both seem minimalistic yet efficient. I am a little skeptical about HHKB's alt key placement. Typically on most keyboard, the alt key is slightly to the right of the Z key and is pressed with the thumb. However, on HHKB, it seems the alt key is slightly to the left of Z key- forcing you either have to curl your thumb un-naturally inward towards or move your little(pinky) finger downward..... and both of these movements will somewhat force you to slightly lift a part of your hand up- especially if you have to follow up that alt keystroke with another number key or something. Wont this be a little annoying?

However, one thing that I do like is that on the HHBK it has already taken off the useless CAP LOCK key and replaced it with Control key... though having the original left Control key where it was isn't bad to begin with and the CAP can be simply re-mapped to be the ESC key for Vim, which is used a lot for switching between writing/insert and various other modes.


Anyways, I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on it - especially those who use a lot of linux tiling wm, or do a lot of work in vim.

The reason why i ditched windows + sublime text for Linux and Vim is partly because I want to customizing a good tiling desktop, but also because Linux and Vim just seem so much more efficient!  And that of course brought me here......... in search of my weapon of mass destruction. 

[n__dles]

Since you're already diving into 2 new things, maybe best to hold off on keyboards for a bit. They can eat up a lot of time.

I'd suggest getting a Cooler Master Quick Fire Rapid for now. TKL and non-programmable to avoid the learning curve and tinkering of 60%'s. They're also cheap and a great value.

[demik]

HHKB FOR EVERYTHING

[Dongulator]

HHKB FOR EVERYTHING

Don't listen to him. FC660C for everything

[demik]

HHKB FOR EVERYTHING

Don't listen to him. FC660C for everything

Fc660c for the trashcan

[Dongulator]

HHKB FOR EVERYTHING

Don't listen to him. FC660C for everything

Fc660c for the trashcan

  how could you say such things. It's the only board superior to the hhkb 

[nubbinator]

HHKB FOR EVERYTHING

Don't listen to him. FC660C for everything

Fc660c for the trashcan

  how could you say such things. It's the only board superior to the hhkb 

FC660C is ****

[Dongulator]

HHKB FOR EVERYTHING

Don't listen to him. FC660C for everything

Fc660c for the trashcan

  how could you say such things. It's the only board superior to the hhkb 

FC660C is ****

wow...

[demik]

There is nothing superior to the hhkb. How dare you? HOW DARE YOU I SAY?!

[Dongulator]

There is nothing superior to the hhkb. How dare you? HOW DARE YOU I SAY?!

I'll agree that we disagree. This isn't really the place to discuss the pro's and con's of both. But I have a solution. PM incoming

[jerue]

The HHKB has the superior layout. Better choice IMO, plus its TOPRE

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/21dzg4/linuxvim_users_does_the_hhkb_make_life_more/

that might help

[deduction]

I have an HHKB and a couple RF boards.  No FC660C, but I do think it has a sexy layout - and some shortcomings, too, mostly around aftermarket capability.  I also think the HHKB is better suited to extremely keyboard-heavy use-cases (like the one you and I share). 

One of the main reasons I would advocate a HHKB over the Leopold is the mod community.  You can order a sweet (and cheap!) controller from hasu so that you can reprogram your HHKB in any way you want.  Artisans make some amazing Topre sets specifically designed for the extreme cant of the R4 FN key.  Plus, if you do get used to the layout, you will really, really be glad to have made the switch, especially as a vim user.  Also, once in a while you'll see HHKB cases and/or top plates crop up.  So far I haven't seen anyone making aftermarket FC660C case parts, but I also haven't been looking.

Like you, I work entirely in a tiling wm (i3 or bust), vim is my editor and gnu/screen is how I minimize things.  I use a ton of control key mappings in vim because it's also my "IDE" for python, Go, and just about every other syntactically-constrained file type.  Sure, you can use the dip switches to remap control on the Leopold, but beyond that, you're stuck with the factory key mappings.  Plus, as someone who hasn't used a non-Linux or BSD desktop in years, I wonder how I ever lived with my backtick and control keys cast out into the far reaches of the pinky-zone.

The HHKB has the superior layout. Better choice IMO, plus its TOPRE

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/21dzg4/linuxvim_users_does_the_hhkb_make_life_more/

that might help

The FC660C is also a Topre switched board. (FC660M is the MX switched board of the same layout.)  However, the FC660C doesn't come in a factory-silenced variant, whereas one can buy a (rather expensive) HHKB v2 Pro Type-S from EK, AMZN.jp, etc.

[derb2k2]

Damn!! This thread is fire!



n__dles has a point though. It might be good to hold off and stick with a TKL. HHKB for command line and VIM may have a steep learning curve depending on how proficient you want to become at them. If you're still seriously interested in 60% only, you may want to consider an FC660 with MX ( not topre since it's ~$200.00 and you may not like layout), to try out the layout. This is what I did and I ended up liking the layout because it includes an arrow cluster (work made me do it).

HHKB reigns supreme though!

[cryptokey]

HHKB FOR EVERYTHING

Don't listen to him. FC660C for everything

Realforce 87U for everything.

[Dongulator]

So far I haven't seen anyone making aftermarket FC660C case parts, but I also haven't been looking.

This is the hardest part about being a fc660c enthusiast. I've been thinking about getting an HHKB for a while. But not sure if I can live without the dedicated arrow cluster.

I would love to try and find someone to make aftermarket fc660c case part's and modifiers, but I don't even know where to start.

[tofgerl]

I'd get a programmable and set it up with the default Poker layout. I started out buying both a Pok3r and a 660C, and I can't use them now since they're not programmable.

Also a programmer, though I use mac, since it's Better(tm)

[xtrafrood]

I've read that those laser legends on the pok3r wear away pretty quickly

[iLLucionist]

HHKB FO SHO.

I do tmux/vim/terminal/tiling day-in-day-out (python, latex, R, sysdevops). I considered the pok3r but on the default layer the tilde (~) is not accessible (default is Esc), while it is on the HHKB. If you're serious about vim, wtf would you use esc when you can remap esc to 'jk' and/or 'kj' so you can stay on the home row. You can reprogram esc to tilde in a second layer but this would require you to say in that layer all the time, so that seems like a compromise to me already. Also, by default, the arrow key config on the pok3r is far less intuitive and comfortable to use in my opinion compared to the HHKB.

GO HHKB, you can't be wrong. It'll take you a week max to get the hang of the diamond arrow keys on the HHKB. But seriously, once it gets in your muscle memory it is difficult to beat. It really makes sense.

[hashbaz]

I love my HHKB dearly but and have tried several times to make it my daily driver at work but to no avail. I work primarily in vim + terminal under the i3 window manager. The HHKB is difficult for that use since its modifiers are non-standard. I've messed with the dip switches and done lots of xmodmap trickery but it's never quite optimal, so I end up switching back to a regular layout board.

[iLLucionist]

I love my HHKB dearly but and have tried several times to make it my daily driver at work but to no avail. I work primarily in vim + terminal under the i3 window manager. The HHKB is difficult for that use since its modifiers are non-standard. I've messed with the dip switches and done lots of xmodmap trickery but it's never quite optimal, so I end up switching back to a regular layout board.

Couldn't you get it in your muscle memory? I was hesitant at first about the modifiers, but then I realized I had been modding the sh*t out of vim for years with custom mappings that I am also able to remember. So looking back on it, it was relatively easy. But I can image that you could not get used to it.

[hashbaz]

It's not an issue of muscle memory, it's a matter of i3's reliance on having its own modifier key. On a regular keyboard I have Caps Lock mapped to produce mod4 (which controls i3), but that doesn't work for the HHKB. This seems like a simple problem, but I've taken several good stabs at it and haven't found a solution that works in all cases and key combinations.

[iLLucionist]

It's not an issue of muscle memory, it's a matter of i3's reliance on having its own modifier key. On a regular keyboard I have Caps Lock mapped to produce mod4 (which controls i3), but that doesn't work for the HHKB. This seems like a simple problem, but I've taken several good stabs at it and haven't found a solution that works in all cases and key combinations.

Oh I see know what you mean.. that sucks. Interesting that even xmodmap did not help.

[hashbaz]

It helps some, but things like combining mod4+shift+<something else> for a complex i3 command would often fail. It felt like xmodmap was getting bypassed by certain apps but not others. :-/

[iLLucionist]

It helps some, but things like combining mod4+shift+<something else> for a complex i3 command would often fail. It felt like xmodmap was getting bypassed by certain apps but not others. :-/

So sad.. HHKB + i3 sounds like a dream team. So pure.. so minimalistic.. so zen.

[ctm]

I am a Vim and Tmux user (addicted to Vim in fact). IMO, the best 60% has to be a fully programmable one. One thing I really enjoy is dual-role Ctrl/Esc key at the place of caps lock. I also made my spacebar a dual-role fn key. It's just so convenient. No stock keyboard offers these features AFAIK.

I don't believe there is a one-for-all perfect keymap. Everyone has a different preference on keymap based on their usage. For example, for those who don't use Vim, Esc key is probably useless in most cases and not worth putting at a near position, but for Vim users Esc key is very important. The best thing about fully programmable keyboard is that you can make you own keymap that is perfect for your usage, and you have the freedom to change it some time later when you usage changes, or you simply change you mind. Before I used Tmux, Ctrl+b is a key combination that I almost never used. Ctrl+b itself isn't very ergonomic, so after I start using Tmux, I programmed my keyboard to have fn+b be Ctrl+b, so it becomes much more ergonomic.

tl;dr: get a fully programmable 60%.

[hashbaz]

What do you mean by dual role? Hold vs. press?

[ctm]

What do you mean by dual role? Hold vs. press?

Yep. For my "caps lock" key, when I tap it, it's esc; when I press it for longer or press it combined with other keys, it's Ctrl. TMK handles dual-role really well.

[therue]

I'd get a programmable and set it up with the default Poker layout. I started out buying both a Pok3r and a 660C, and I can't use them now since they're not programmable.

Also a programmer, though I use mac, since it's Better(tm)

isn't pok3r programmable?

[therue]

amazin, hhkb does indeed sound like orgasmic 

However, I'm actually no longer residing in the U.S. and am currently living in Taiwan at the moment. Does anyone know of any places to shop for HHKB besides Amazon.jp ?

I did find pok3r on taiwan's pchome for $NTD 3,814  roughly  $127 USD
the HHKB pro 2 from Amazon Japan is Yen 19,428 which translates to $NTD 5,440 roughly $181

though i think there's still extra fees for international shipment over 1,000 NTD which I will have to pay will have to look into it.

By the way, with the MX cherry keyboards, there's different color switches to choose from, with HHKB there's no such options right?

[sth]

It helps some, but things like combining mod4+shift+<something else> for a complex i3 command would often fail. It felt like xmodmap was getting bypassed by certain apps but not others. :-/

thats pretty interesting - i use mod4 for all of my wm-related stuff and have actually gotten to the point that i remap OTHER keyboards to match the hhk modifiers.

that said, OP: hhkb

[hashbaz]

What do you press for mod4?

[sth]

What do you press for mod4?

the 1.5 mod next to the spacebar. i can't remember if that's default or a dip switch setting because i'm using tmk these days.

it's kind of a combo between OS X and Windows/Linux - WM stuff is on mod4/command/whatever and applications mostly use control as the modifier.

[hashbaz]

Might it be something custom in your TMK setup? Or did it work before that?

[sth]

Might it be something custom in your TMK setup? Or did it work before that?

nope, i've always used it like this. mac mode dip setting.
really the only thing I use tmk for right now is disabling the power button, and geekier dmesg output.

[ctm]

I'd get a programmable and set it up with the default Poker layout. I started out buying both a Pok3r and a 660C, and I can't use them now since they're not programmable.

Also a programmer, though I use mac, since it's Better(tm)

isn't pok3r programmable?

It has some programmability but not as good as firmware level programmability. I heard that with Poker 2 you can't even assign ctrl to caps lock. Not sure if they fix it in Pok3r. Also in poker you can't get things like dual-role keys, mouse keys etc.

[therue]

ya, i think i'll go for a HHKB ^_^
the sound they produce is enough... just take my money nao!!! 

the silent one is so much more expensive from what i'v seen on amazon.co.jp

standard is perfect the way it is anyway, i love that sound

hhkb is fully programmable though right?

the difficult question now is, whether to get the white or the black 
and what color scheme to set up in the future.

[sth]

ya, i think i'll go for a HHKB ^_^
the sound they produce is enough... just take my money nao!!! 

the silent one is so much more expensive from what i'v seen on amazon.co.jp

standard is perfect the way it is anyway, i love that sound

hhkb is fully programmable though right?

you will need one of Hasu's TMK boards: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12047.0;topicseen

HOWEVER i would really really recommend you try the stock layout and get used to it before you change stuff. In fact i have a TMK controller but the only thing i did was unmap the power button because i kept accidentally shutting my machine down otherwise the layout rules.

[derb2k2]

By the way, with the MX cherry keyboards, there's different color switches to choose from, with HHKB there's no such options right?

That's correct. The different color MX switches belong to the different types of mechanisms that the switch uses. Topre is Topre.

[iLLucionist]

I am a Vim and Tmux user (addicted to Vim in fact). IMO, the best 60% has to be a fully programmable one. One thing I really enjoy is dual-role Ctrl/Esc key at the place of caps lock. I also made my spacebar a dual-role fn key. It's just so convenient. No stock keyboard offers these features AFAIK.

I don't believe there is a one-for-all perfect keymap. Everyone has a different preference on keymap based on their usage. For example, for those who don't use Vim, Esc key is probably useless in most cases and not worth putting at a near position, but for Vim users Esc key is very important. The best thing about fully programmable keyboard is that you can make you own keymap that is perfect for your usage, and you have the freedom to change it some time later when you usage changes, or you simply change you mind. Before I used Tmux, Ctrl+b is a key combination that I almost never used. Ctrl+b itself isn't very ergonomic, so after I start using Tmux, I programmed my keyboard to have fn+b be Ctrl+b, so it becomes much more ergonomic.

tl;dr: get a fully programmable 60%.

Broo. braaaah... bruuuuuh. don't you know? First thing I have in my ~/.tmux.conf is remapping ctrl+b to ctrl+a:

set -g prefix C-a
unbind C-b
bind C-a send-prefix

# I also have vim-like bindings:
setw -g mode-keys vi (see man tmux for which mappings are affected and what they are)

# I also have some custom config to make pane navigation more vim-like
# For instance, for down-key (j) i have:
unbind-key j
bind-key j select-pane -D # ctrl-a j == go pane down

# And..
bind-key -n C-j select-pane -D # ctrl + j == go pnae down

Works beautifully in concert with vimux!

[n__dles]

By the way, with the MX cherry keyboards, there's different color switches to choose from, with HHKB there's no such options right?

There's Topre and rubber dome available for HHKB. I'd suggest getting the rubber dome to see if you like the layout. But that's not what you want to hear

edit: typo

[iLLucionist]

By the way, with the MX cherry keyboards, there's different color switches to choose from, with HHKB there's no such options right?

There's Torpre and rubber dome available for HHKB. I'd suggest getting the rubber dome to see if you like the layout. But that's not what you want to hear

There is a rubberdome HHKB?

[n__dles]

There is a rubberdome HHKB?

Yes.

[iLLucionist]

There is a rubberdome HHKB?

Yes.

Oh yes the HHKB Lite.. Forgot about that one.

[sth]

There is a rubberdome HHKB?

Yes.

Oh yes the HHKB Lite.. Forgot about that one.

OG HHKB is rdoms as well

[n__dles]

OG HHKB is rdoms as well

I learned something.

Am I the only one who thinks a 60% kb isn't the best way to learn a new OS and editor? I'm surprised there hasn't been more posts discouraging 60%. On a TK in an editor I've used for years, I occasionally mis-press a multi key combination and get some result I've never seen before.

It seems to me that the negatives of learning how to use a 60% while trying to learn an editor far outweigh the positives. To be clear, I mean that learning vim and 60% keyboarding at the same take will make learning vim take longer, be more frustrating, and be net-negative for productivity vs. learning vim on an 80%+. Additionally, I think the OP might be overestimating the benefits of 60%'s or I might be underestimating them.

Thoughts?

[therue]

Your statement and assumptions are 100% correct
But they look so damn cool though!
It's a risk I'm willing to partake.

[iLLucionist]

OG HHKB is rdoms as well

I learned something.

Am I the only one who thinks a 60% kb isn't the best way to learn a new OS and editor? I'm surprised there hasn't been more posts discouraging 60%. On a TK in an editor I've used for years, I occasionally mis-press a multi key combination and get some result I've never seen before.

It seems to me that the negatives of learning how to use a 60% while trying to learn an editor far outweigh the positives. To be clear, I mean that learning vim and 60% keyboarding at the same take will make learning vim take longer, be more frustrating, and be net-negative for productivity vs. learning vim on an 80%+. Additionally, I think the OP might be overestimating the benefits of 60%'s or I might be underestimating them.

Thoughts?

I completely disagree if you are talking about vim, simply because all the keys you lack on a 60% vs a TKL are just those keys you do not need in vim: arrow keys. There is literally no key that you miss on a 60% that you would need in vim. Except if you have a pok3r it is cumbersome to type tilde (~) and backticks (`), an extra "change" you need to get in your muscle memory.

In vim, arrow keys = h j k l (left down up right). Esc is still esc, which is present in all 60%'s for as far as I know. And if not, I (and a lother of vimmers I know) remap esc to jk / kj in insert mode so that you can keep your fingers on the home row.

Further, keys like home / end / page up / page down are also completely unnecessary: home / end of buffer is 'gg' / 'G' respectively, beginning / end of line is '^' / '$' respectively, and page up / page down is 'Ctrl + B' / 'Ctrl + F' respectively (there are some other mappings for these, but this is basically what it boils down to).

The F-keys that you usually have to access via Fn or another layer are not mapped in vim by default. You may miss those, but you do not strictly need them for vim so they shouldn't be missed in a vanilla vim setup using a 60%.

Am I missing something?

[iLLucionist]

OG HHKB is rdoms as well

I learned something.

Am I the only one who thinks a 60% kb isn't the best way to learn a new OS and editor? I'm surprised there hasn't been more posts discouraging 60%. On a TK in an editor I've used for years, I occasionally mis-press a multi key combination and get some result I've never seen before.

It seems to me that the negatives of learning how to use a 60% while trying to learn an editor far outweigh the positives. To be clear, I mean that learning vim and 60% keyboarding at the same take will make learning vim take longer, be more frustrating, and be net-negative for productivity vs. learning vim on an 80%+. Additionally, I think the OP might be overestimating the benefits of 60%'s or I might be underestimating them.

Thoughts?

A last thing specifically in vim: I would not expect an increase or decrease in productivity, because vim is actually already focused on only using the keys that a 60% provides (modifiers + the home-row, numbers, the row above home row, and the row below).

BUT in general, I can imagine (especially on OSX where you have mappings for begin / end word etc. throughout the OS) it is more difficult using Fn + diamond keys on hhkb (or another 60% for that matter).

[n__dles]

I completely disagree if you are talking about vim, simply because all the keys you lack on a 60% vs a TKL are just those keys you do not need in vim: arrow keys.

I think you're explaining a seasoned vim user switching to a 60%. In that case I agree with you. However, the OP's situation is new keyboard, new editor,  and new OS, which opens a lot more room for confusion.

If you end up on the wrong layer and hit some keystroke and something unexpected happens, it's not a big deal because you know how vim works: "oh I was on layer p instead of layer q and got r when I expected s." Someone who has no clue how vim works would be at a complete loss.

That might not be the best example, this blog post about learning an editor while learning to program and this one about switching to vim 'the hard way' express what I'm trying to say better than I'm able to.

But they look so damn cool though!
It's a risk I'm willing to partake.

Fair play. I respect your decision, and at this point I'm not trying to influence your choice. I'm posting to challenge my own PoV and because some people, myself included, lurk GH and buy our first mech based on threads like these.

[iLLucionist]

I completely disagree if you are talking about vim, simply because all the keys you lack on a 60% vs a TKL are just those keys you do not need in vim: arrow keys.

I think you're explaining a seasoned vim user switching to a 60%. In that case I agree with you. However, the OP's situation is new keyboard, new editor,  and new OS, which opens a lot more room for confusion.

If you end up on the wrong layer and hit some keystroke and something unexpected happens, it's not a big deal because you know how vim works: "oh I was on layer p instead of layer q and got r when I expected s." Someone who has no clue how vim works would be at a complete loss.

That might not be the best example, this blog post about learning an editor while learning to program and this one about switching to vim 'the hard way' express what I'm trying to say better than I'm able to.

But they look so damn cool though!
It's a risk I'm willing to partake.

Fair play. I respect your decision, and at this point I'm not trying to influence your choice. I'm posting to challenge my own PoV and because some people, myself included, lurk GH and buy our first mech based on threads like these.

You are completely right, I overlooked that one. Yes, I meant when you are already comfortable with vim. Indeed, when you are AND switching to vim AND having to memorize 60%, that is more difficult and may lead to confusion. I'm so deep in vim I oftentimes forget that learning vim is also annoying / confusing at first. I can remember the first time I saw vim "WHY can't I just type stufff"