Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.

[rdjack21]

Of course it's better in that regard. My trouble is that my muscle memory expects to find more enter key where the backspace is (on HHKB2). For all the nips and tucks I'm suggesting.. the HHKB2 is pretty strong. I just can't help but think of ways to improve it. Honestly, I don't think I've ever pressed the right alt or meta yet. I'd have a larger enter and a backspace in place of those two keys any day.

Have you thought about getting this instead?

If you are wondering this is the Japanese version of the HHKB Pro. Before you ask that small space bar is not really a problem. I keep thinking that the Japanese version may be the next HHKB Pro I get instead of the US version. I've been getting used to the layout on my MD01B0 and the more I use it the more I find it less of an issue for me. And really the only key on it that some what gives me issues is the right shift. Also if you don't tell your OS that it is a Japanese board it will map the keys correctly for the symbols but if need to know they map like this on mine:
`@ => [{
[{ => ]}
;+ => ;:
*: => ' "
]} => \|
- \ => dead key you will have to map this one. I have it mapped to shift on mine.
| ¥ => Dead key you will have to map this one. I have it mapped to back space on mine but now that I've gotten used to small back space key I'm going to change that.
All other keys map as you would expect.

[Rajagra]

I'd be happy to use the Japanese version.
Just one question. What does the 'Happy Hacking' key do?

[rdjack21]

I don't know because I don't have one yet that is At some point I'm going to get one though.

[jedidove]

@rdjack

Now THAT was the sort of thing that I was hoping to see. If my experience with joystick hardware (read Sanwa) is any clue, the Japanese seem to take their **** seriously when it comes to (arcade) gaming hardware. Now, thats not to say that they don't use topre because of other biases and being used to it, but it certainly means that its not a generally accepted "terrible" choice for gaming. Does that mean I will enjoy it as much? Who knows? But its comforting to see it as a japanese standard, for CS nonetheless, and correct if I'm wrong but I think the Japanese take CS pretty seriously.

As for the japanese keyboard layout. While my first reaction is obviously the spacebar....I still wonder if the benefits are worth the detriments. I don't need a huge enter key, but I would like a nice easy to reach/use backspace key. Same for shift, though I've grown to use mostly left shift (I'm a semi-self taught, had a class in middle school, mostly learned as I went along sort of typer) even for left hand keys since I'm use to that sort of positioning for gaming. Though, its a habit I should plan to break for typing.

What draws you to the Japanese layout? What are the benefits to you? And what do you find the drawbacks to be in practice? Also, what happens to those language keys? If I could get past the spacebar, it might be useful having that extra key (or keys if the HHKB one is mappable) near WASD. They might even be useful outside of games.

EDIT: And whats up with those mm gaps on the bottom row? They could have just widened the spacebar or the alt keys or something. Then it would really look kick ass, especially blanked, just a small dense pack of keys, filled to the edge, yet still minimalistic.


EDIT2: Come to think of it, by shrinking the right side of the spacebar, both language keys on the right are reasonably reachable from wasd. The kana might be a little stretch but the other one is definitely doable. That adds 2-3 possibly mappable keys that can be reached without getting off of WASD (and possibly without getting off crouch too depending on how you hit the left hhkb key).

[itlnstln]

Is it me or does this seem like what HHKB should have looked like in the first place?

Show Image

For awhile, the "dream keyboard" around here was an HHKB Lite with Topre switches.  IMO, that would be a better layout.

[bigpook]

I have an HHKB lite, its in the closet now. I remember relying on the arrow keys when I first got it as the fn + key seemed tedious. Over time I learned to use the fn + key for arrow up/down. Once you get used to it I found it hard to go back to using the dedicated arrow keys. If only because it was awkward to move my hand from the home row.

I suppose if you  are a gamer it could be an issue, but  why would you game on a HHKB when there are other/better 'boards to be had?

[AndrewZorn]

why is the HHKB bad for gaming!?
- same switches as the 'gaming' realforce
- close to mouse or more mouse room
- tiny so you can bring it to stupid lan parties

ok so it doesnt have keys in the corner, and F1-F12 can be an issue sometimes... RARELY... eve online is the first time ive wanted to use them, but its slow enough that it doesnt really matter.

i guess my main deal with the arrow keys is that im not always typing (with the home row), just using the mouse

[carmen]

i think it was designed by emacs users

ctrl-f/b/p/n is a lot faster htan piddling around recentering your fingers on the arrow keys only to move them back

[jedidove]

why would you game on a HHKB when there are other/better 'boards to be had?

Here we go again Elaborate, but don't say black cherries, because some people like being able to type on their keyboard too

[carmen]

had to map caps to control w/ xmodmap on my thinkpad because the muscle memory kicked in right away - its such a better location

[ch_123]

I think he might have meant that in terms of layout.

Is it me or does this seem like what HHKB should have looked like in the first place?

That's just you.

[bigpook]

Here we go again Elaborate, but don't say black cherries, because some people like being able to type on their keyboard too

Not a whole lot to elaborate on. I don't game on the PC anymore (PS3), but when I did....hmm. Maybe it was all WASD anyways. I was thinking (probably not enough) that the arrow keys are important for gaming.

[bigpook]

why is the HHKB bad for gaming!?
- same switches as the 'gaming' realforce
- close to mouse or more mouse room
- tiny so you can bring it to stupid lan parties

ok so it doesnt have keys in the corner, and F1-F12 can be an issue sometimes... RARELY... eve online is the first time ive wanted to use them, but its slow enough that it doesnt really matter.

i guess my main deal with the arrow keys is that im not always typing (with the home row), just using the mouse

I didn't say the HHKB was bad for gaming. To be clear, I don't see the need to spend upwards of 250 US for a keyboard to game on. Unless of course, you want to.

[AndrewZorn]

you dont need to spend over 10 for a combination gaming/typing keyboard either.  not that i bought my HHKB specifically for anything.

[Rajagra]

For awhile, the "dream keyboard" around here was an HHKB Lite with Topre switches.  IMO, that would be a better layout.

I have one (a standard Lite2), and it doesn't feel as natural as you'd expect.
Having a well placed Fn key(s), used to access inverted-T arrow within the main layout would be far better.

[Arc'xer]

Most of the people use sponsor keyboards or 5-15 dollar buys. Most are membrane or scissor like the Razer and Logitech or Microsoft etc.etc.. I've seen a few using the mx black on the steelseries 7G and this Chinese CS team using Jaki's but other than that most of them seem to not really care what they use nor would they bother even trying to find out. It's just like their hardware most don't even know much about computers and whatnot.

http://www.youtube.com/user/deeaboxing#p/u

Chinese CS team players using Jaki's if you listen to the videos you can hear mx black and maybe a blue as well. Could be wrong and they are all using one switch though.

(CSO, CS online it's Asian version of 1.6 with new things and micro payment.)

[jedidove]

Correct me if I'm wrong on those Nostromo's but aren't they just standard rubber dome crap (though it looks like a blue cherry under that thumb key)? I don't really see how they really help all that much. You lose access to the number keys, and end up needing to reach to your keyboard to type in chat and for the less often used random convenient binds elsewhere on it (console, loadout, etc.). Plus it just leaves you even less room on your desk for your mouse since it doesn't completely do away with the need for a keyboard.

I always thought it was interesting that "pro" gamers just bought into the overmarketted crap as opposed to doing any real research. You could get a Filco NKey with any cherry for the same price as those razer and logitech craps.

[microsoft windows]

There are people who just aren't interested in keyboard feel. Some people like the extra buttons on those keyboards. Personally, however, I'd rather have a Filco if I had to choose between those three types (and would prefer a Model M out of all types).

[itlnstln]

Correct me if I'm wrong on those Nostromo's but aren't they just standard rubber dome crap (though it looks like a blue cherry under that thumb key)? I don't really see how they really help all that much. You lose access to the number keys, and end up needing to reach to your keyboard to type in chat and for the less often used random convenient binds elsewhere on it (console, loadout, etc.). Plus it just leaves you even less room on your desk for your mouse since it doesn't completely do away with the need for a keyboard.
 
I always thought it was interesting that "pro" gamers just bought into the overmarketted crap as opposed to doing any real research. You could get a Filco NKey with any cherry for the same price as those razer and logitech craps.

They are rubber dome off the shelf.  Ripster modded his to use Cherrys.  I loved my Nostomo.  I never needed the keyboard with it; I always had plenty of bindings.  You should check it out.

[microsoft windows]

Isn't typing the reason why keyboards were invented?

[itlnstln]

Isn't typing the reason why keyboards were invented?

Yeah, but for some reason, many people have forgotton that.

[microsoft windows]

The most ridiculous of the "gaming" keyboards is the one with the special LCD which displays stuff happening in the game. I think it's made by Logitech or something. Most games aren't even compatible with the LCD, which is virtually pointless when chances are there's a big one sitting right in front of it.

Here's a photo of one.


My keyboard with an integrated LCD actually serves a purpose: it's a handy little calculator that requires no drivers.

[jedidove]

The nostromo is out of the question. I need my keyboard near me when I play so having an extra thing doesn't make sense with my already limited space. Not to mention I don't want to buy something just to mod it. The number keys are particularly important playing spy in tf2 and are often important to gaming in general. All you gain is a dpad...which honestly is completely unnecessary. It would be good for weapons but I'm not even sure I would prefer its action to that of a key (even rubber dome). It mimicks the idea of keyboard keys but doesn't really add much of anything.  There are just a lot of levels on which it just doesn't make sense for me.


That is all completely ignoring the fact that I'm not buying something for only gaming. I'm making an investment for typing and gaming, but as a keyboard, typing is particularly important. I want it to be a good investment towards gaming too, but I'm not focused completely on that, hence why black cherry's are completely out of the question.

I'm starting to lean towards the HHKB. The obvious coding/layout benefits aside, it seems to be unanimously seen as great for typing (no?) and if its any better than domes for gaming, thats an improvement. I'm more afraid of certain tactile/switch choices being particualry bad for gaming, possibly worse than domes.

[AndrewZorn]

you want to know whats funny?  you are absolutely right about the g15, i bought one, technically still have it.  had never played a game taht supported the LCD until now, AFTER i bought all these fancy keyboards and ditched the G15.

the point still remains that it is unnecessary and all, just annoying that i dont get to use it until it is too late.

it was kind of handy for MP3 information and stuff i guess...

that is why i keep wishing that there was some sort of usb 'pod' that is just an LCD and media buttons.  not a 5.25" bay device, just something that i can use independently of a keyboard for that kind of thing.  would also quell the arguments over at XtremeSystems about the G15 being amazing and all.

[Rajagra]

that is why i keep wishing that there was some sort of usb 'pod' that is just an LCD and media buttons.  not a 5.25" bay device, just something that i can use independently of a keyboard for that kind of thing.  would also quell the arguments over at XtremeSystems about the G15 being amazing and all.

My old G15 was damaged by coffee, and my repair was only partly successful. I plan to use its controller to build a pod like you describe. Except I will be able to plug keyboard modules into it, like a main alphanumeric block, a numpad, a programmable function pad, all arrangeable as I see fit.

Re the Nostromo. It does use rubber domes, but they are very snappy, at least on the N52te version, so are great for gaming. The layout is much more comfortable and ergonomic than using the main keyboard (the main purpose of getting it!) It has n-key rollover as far as I can tell, and I did try hard to prove otherwise. There are effectively 27 buttons, but if you dedicate a key to shift states you can have 3*26=78 keys which can each be mapped to act as any key you like, or macros. Once programmed the N52te does not require drivers or any other form of software to be loaded. And you can turn off the stupid blue backlighting with a switch on the base. Hallelujah!

[o2dazone]

I enjoyed having 30g of force on the brown cherries, over the 45g of force + the collapse of the topre when I'm gaming. I won't say it'll make or break your game, but it definitely made my fingers feel like they were doing more work on the Topre switches, probably because the actuation requires almost bottoming out while the browns don't necessarily need to bottom out to actuate. Or maybe it's the 15g difference.

[rdjack21]

Is it me or does this seem like what HHKB should have looked like in the first place?

Show Image

The problem with that cluster is the shift key. I have that layout on my MD01B0 and that darn shift is really the only thing that still gives me issues and is really the main reason I'm still looking for that perfect small keyboard layout. I have hopes for this one:


But you will note that on this one though it has other issues. For instance the very small space bar. But do you see where they have put the cursor key cluster? I'm seriously thinking about remapping the keys on my MD01B0 to be like that and making a larger shift key that will fit where the current Shift/Up arrow keys are at on it.

Now the HHKB Lite did it right they left the shift key alone and put a small cursor key cluster below it. But I think putting up high like that board above may work as well.

[AndrewZorn]

My old G15 was damaged by coffee, and my repair was only partly successful. I plan to use its controller to build a pod like you describe. Except I will be able to plug keyboard modules into it, like a main alphanumeric block, a numpad, a programmable function pad, all arrangeable as I see fit.

i forgot to mention it would be a USB hub (also)

i really do not understand why i havent seen them, seems like the perfect thing to please everyone

[jedidove]

I map the Nostromo Dpad to numbers.  Check out my son's Spy rankings here:  Ripster[ESG]  He uses Buckling Springs.  LOL!

Point is, the HHKB2 is a fine keyboard for typing/coding.  Don't expect it to improve your gaming scores.

Funny you should bring that up. I'm an active ESG member, and I started to do research on the HHKB after an ESG admin talked about how much he absolutely fell in love with that keyboard and would get one if only they made an ergo design. I had heard of it before, but I really only considered standard mechanical offerings like cherry's. He said he'd be so jealous if I got one, so I figured it had to be something worth looking at. After reading about the coding benefits, it seemed like a brilliant choice. Then I read all the very negative things about gaming on them, got tossed in limbo, and here I am.

I'm not sure if he was using the lite or the pro 2. He plays comp solly and complains about rocket jumping on his current board (cheap msft ergo), so I take it the no bottom left key was not a problem at all. I'd just map crouch to shift as it is in some games. That happens to be more comfortable/natural before you train the ctrl positioning into your hand. I'm asking him about which one he had and what features he liked about it. I'll see what he says.




@o2dazone: you make an interesting comment considering that rdjack said that they use 30g topres on the realforce csneo arcade. Maybe the weight really does make a difference?




@AndrewZorn: You said you used browns and topres though I don't remember you mentioning how they were for gaming. I saw a post by you on another forum in a thread about gaming keyboards. Someone said their first choice was HHKB and second was Realforce 87u, to which you replied that coincidentally you were trying to decide between those, and seemed as if you were going to go for the hhkb after hearing that. So how is it for you personally? And how does it compare to the browns?

[AndrewZorn]

i prefer topres to browns for games.  the topre seems very springy and on/off and easy to push repeatedly, whereas the brown is linear (funny how this is normally the preference) and you are sort of feeling clicks when you dont need to, since you are going to be pushing the key down all the way anyway.

its also really really nice to have the keyboard centered with the screen and not having the mouse too far away.  i had my 104 key filco out the other day, which is even small for a full-size, and i dont know how i ever used a keyboard that long.

[itlnstln]

I map the Nostromo Dpad to numbers.

I used the d-pad for movement (WASD), leaving the other keys free for whatever.  I miss gaming on it.  It still sits on my desk; dusty and unused.  Poor thing.

[microsoft windows]

Trolling is my job here!

[itlnstln]

You still have to beat Webwit, young Padawan.  Quality > Quantity

[itlnstln]

Really folks, it's easy, DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

Sorry.  I had some leftovers in the fridge I needed to get rid of.

[jedidove]

you want to know whats funny?  you are absolutely right about the g15, i bought one, technically still have it.  had never played a game taht supported the LCD until now, AFTER i bought all these fancy keyboards and ditched the G15.

the point still remains that it is unnecessary and all, just annoying that i dont get to use it until it is too late.

it was kind of handy for MP3 information and stuff i guess...

that is why i keep wishing that there was some sort of usb 'pod' that is just an LCD and media buttons.  not a 5.25" bay device, just something that i can use independently of a keyboard for that kind of thing.  would also quell the arguments over at XtremeSystems about the G15 being amazing and all.

Saw this today on my rss: http://gizmodo.com/5422561/15+inch-usb-screen-is-of-questionable-usefulness?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+gizmodo%2Ffull+%28Gizmodo%29

If you need a hub and buttons (I don't see buttons) just hack it with a cheap hub or something. It only costs $30, could be a fun project.

@ripster: well you have topres, has your realforce gotten mushy? Do you have something against them?

[microsoft windows]

The mushiness of that Compaq is most likely due to excessive use. I've seen the same types of keyboards before and they feel much better, but they weren't nearly as worn as the one you describe seems to be.

[AndrewZorn]

i cant imagine a cherry feels the same after XX million keystrokes either

[jedidove]

No, my Topre is not mushy and as my sig says it's probably my 3rd most used keyboard.

Sorry there, mistook something for sarcasm lol.

But really, you ARE thinking about this too much.  Why not get a Cherry Brown and when you're into uber coding mode get a HHKB2?

Because if I found the Topre's comparable to, if not better than, the browns for gaming, I could save myself over $100 (combined cost difference) and have an even more portable board now, with the added benefit for when I have to write up stuff in LateX/emacs, plus a better typing experience if I am to believe the opinions I have been hearing. On the other hand if I found the Topre's terrible for gaming as some say (though I'm now starting to doubt), then I'll be left saying "should have gotten browns and waited before getting the HHKB" for the next 2 years.

[AndrewZorn]

i still am not understanding this:



often referenced as THE BEST KEYBOARD FOR GAYMEN... EVER!!!
its one of the few to come with the lavender WASD keys

i just feel like the marketing of the realforce is for gaming, and the HHKB for coding...
people call the realforce a great gaming board, worth the investment, lasts forever, etc
but then people call the HHKB an awful gaming board, forgetting that it uses the same switch.  i could maybe get it if they criticized the layout, but the conversation always comes back to cherry blacks when it starts with the HHKB.

[timw4mail]

i still am not understanding this:

Show Image

often referenced as THE BEST KEYBOARD FOR GAYMEN... EVER!!!
its one of the few to come with the lavender WASD keys

i just feel like the marketing of the realforce is for gaming, and the HHKB for coding...
people call the realforce a great gaming board, worth the investment, lasts forever, etc
but then people call the HHKB an awful gaming board, forgetting that it uses the same switch.  i could maybe get it if they criticized the layout, but the conversation always comes back to cherry blacks when it starts with the HHKB.

Keyboard switches are a matter of preference. I would probably use basically any switch for games because I don't see the point of a gaming switch versus a typing switch. Everything about keyboards is subjective when it comes to switches and layouts.

[microsoft windows]

I like to use the Model M for gaming. It's great for Solitaire!

[AndrewZorn]

Colored keys = better gaming??

Nope,

Colored keys = Asian obsession.

All I'm saying is the HHKB2  would be a terrible board for me for gaming since my pinky expects a corner key.  Also, I'd rather wear out WASD on a $100 board.

hey, it wasnt my idea, im just saying that it clearly isnt an asian obsession to color a certain 4 keys over and over.
the filco has them as an accessory, as do many, but the 87u includes them, and these keys are associated with FPS games.

WASD are replaceable for a mere $5 a key or something... [sarcasm]

[1839cc]

often referenced as the best keyboard for gaymen... Ever!!!
Its one of the few to come with the lavender wasd keys

^^^ lol ^^^

EDIT: What's with no caps?

[AndrewZorn]

I meant wear out the WASD rubber domes.

30 million chatters or something

[AndrewZorn]

well then cherry isnt much longer

[microsoft windows]

Just about any keyboard is great for the type of gaming I do.

[bitflipper]

No, this is the future of PC gaming...

[elbowglue]

No, this is the future of PC gaming...

AUUUGHH Flashback!!

[o2dazone]

i prefer topres to browns for games.  the topre seems very springy and on/off and easy to push repeatedly, whereas the brown is linear (funny how this is normally the preference) and you are sort of feeling clicks when you dont need to, since you are going to be pushing the key down all the way anyway.

its also really really nice to have the keyboard centered with the screen and not having the mouse too far away.  i had my 104 key filco out the other day, which is even small for a full-size, and i dont know how i ever used a keyboard that long.

Then perhaps it's purely preference. While I do game on my HHKB a lot (I know...shame on me), I also work a lot, work hard play hard. I won't swap keyboards to prevent gaming on a Topre. If anything it limbers up my fingers to get used to different hotkey shortcuts so I can minimize my mouse use when I'm working.

[hyperlinked]

No, this is the future of PC gaming...

Is that NetHack?

Let's see some Net Trek next?