40% + Symbols row + 3/4 NumPad

[decker]

Just playing around with a few concepts !

Hard to know what to call this !

5x16 stag : 40% + Symbols row + 3/4 NumPad


Could you imagine using this type of layout ?
Off course Fn would be used for plenty of things not detailed above.

New :
5x15.5 stag : 40% + Symbols row + 3/4 NumPad

[iLLucionist]

I would not like that really. I do programming and need those symbols more than other keys often. Although I do know symbols above my number keys (2 -> @; 4 -> $ etc), I occasionally forgot what's what. So I think this would be very difficult for me to get into my muscle memory. Just sayin'

[decker]

I see what you mean, however you did notice that the symbols on US-KB 1 to 7 are on the same keys, right ?
Because if you feel lost now, wait till you stumble on an Azerty keyboard and then you will really understand what it means to feel lost !
I get however that some programing languages relly more than others on {} and [] and not just () and <>.

Maybe this type of layout would work better if I started from a Azerty keyboard, for azerty users.
Understand that the Azerty layout is so painfull for some symbols it is hard to have good musle memory for it :

[iLLucionist]

I see what you mean, however you did notice that the symbols on US-KB 1 to 7 are on the same keys, right ?
Because if you feel lost now, wait till you stumble on an Azerty keyboard and then you will really understand what it means to feel lost !
I get however that some programing languages relly more than others on {} and [] and not just () and <>.

Maybe this type of layout would work better if I started from a Azerty keyboard, for azerty users.
Understand that the Azerty layout is so painfull for some symbols it is hard to have good musle memory for it :

Show Image

Interesting idea, but it still really looks odd to me. Might be my brain exploding.

But is a great idea to experiment with it. There may be much better layouts than we could possibly imagine today. And the idea of a 40% + something is a nice idea. But only if it provides true advantage over a regular 60%.

How do you make these layouts?

[decker]

I play around with http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/

I imagine a challenge and try to see what I get out of it.
The harder the challenge the stanger the result.

[iLLucionist]

I play around with http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/

I imagine a challenge and try to see what I get out of it.
The harder the challenge the stanger the result.

Nice, thanks for the link!

It's interesting what you come up with though I cannot directly see myself using it :-) Perhaps I'm and old fashioned stubborn geek

[decker]

I made up a lot of stranger designs if you want to take a peek, a lot are totaly worthless though :

-alt reality-
-------------
5x14 atl abc-full
4x10 qwerty legacy symbols

-alt planck-
--------------
4x10 qwerty legacy symbols
4x10 qwerty unusable
4x14 qwerty -num
5x16 azerty plank+num-pad

-planck-
--------
4x12 qwerty 3k sp2
4x12 qwerty 2k sp2
4x12 qwerty 5k sp2
4x12 qwerty 4k sp4 sh2 en2 -num
4x12 abc 5k sp4 sh2 en2 -num
4x12 qwerty 2u middle column
4x12 freq 2u middle

-staggered-
------------
qwerty 40% + symbols row+ 3/4 numpad
azerty rant

-ergonomic-
-----------
alt colemak ergodox
alt colemak atreus
alt katy
2x g13

[iLLucionist]

Actually like your

"qwerty 40% + symbols row+ 3/4 numpad" (staggered) layout.

But I would probably put numbers on top and symbols where numpad is. That may actually work for me personally.

Really interesting layouts!

[trenzafeeds]

that original version looks like a dream to me, really awesome layout.

[Malenky]

I really love the initial idea, I can see the thought process behind it and it's a great idea. Here are a few changes I would personally make:

• Where you have Fn on the left, I would make a standard Windows key, since I use this a fair amount. The right AltGr would become Fn.
• Because of the first point, I'd probably have the left Ctrl, Win, Alt all standard 1.5 sized and have my new Fn (where your AltGr is) be a 1u. This would also move the spacebar into the more standard position.
• I would change the numpad layout. I have always hated how numpads have numbers from bottom to top, and would change it to top row 1,2,3 etc. 0 would stay in the same place. Open your phones keypad to dial a number and see how it is, or on any chip and pin card machines.
• I would have a standard left shift, since I have found the ISO left shift to be a bit of a stretch when typing properly from the home row position. The missing punctuation key would go where you have Del, and the delete function would be on the Fn layer of Backspace.

That's all I can think of for now.

[decker]

Thanks for the note.
1) In a ideal world you wouldn't need Ctrl, Alt, Win and Fn.
As a thought experiment I remapped them in one of my layout ideas :
5x14 atl abc-full

What do you use Win key for ?
I only use it at work to lock the computer or to launch windows 8/10 keyboard search.
I use a lot Alt-Gr as I use an Azerty keyboard to write French...

2) Is there a standard position for spacebars anymore ?
It seems it has changed so much since windows ten and lapytops Fn arrived !

3) It is true that some people don't notice that.
I've asked myself which layout I prefer and on a keyboard, I tend to put my fingers on 1-2-3 and it feels natural to extend them a bit to have 4-5-6 or even more for 7-8-6.
But what is natural but the force of habit...

4) I'm used to using a ISO keyboard and don't use it correctly so I manage that size.
I thought it was a nice was to squeeze in an extra key on a 40%.

Thanks

[iLLucionist]

Thanks for the note.
1) In a ideal world you wouldn't need Ctrl, Alt, Win and Fn.
As a thought experiment I remapped them in one of my layout ideas :
5x14 atl abc-full

I very much need Ctrl and Alt, coz it expands my options for key mappings in vim greatly. For instance Ctrl + A + <key> is for tmux. Ctrl + A + h = go to left pane.

What do you use Win key for ?
I only use it at work to lock the computer or to launch windows 8/10 keyboard search.
I use a lot Alt-Gr as I use an Azerty keyboard to write French...

On my Mac, winkey = cmd = used for almost anything. So yeah on Windows pretty useless. But you literally cannot use your mac without cmd.

2) Is there a standard position for spacebars anymore ?
It seems it has changed so much since windows ten and lapytops Fn arrived !

I don' really mind where spacebar is as long as I can reach it with my thumb comfortable.

[Charger]

On my Mac, winkey = cmd = used for almost anything. So yeah on Windows pretty useless. But you literally cannot use your mac without cmd.

I wouldn't say windows key is useless I tend to use it more than I use the alt key. I use it for moving windows around from one monitor to another (windows key + shift + arrow key) or snapping them around the screen  (windows key + arrow key).

[Malenky]

Thanks for the note.
1) In a ideal world you wouldn't need Ctrl, Alt, Win and Fn.
As a thought experiment I remapped them in one of my layout ideas :
5x14 atl abc-full

What do you use Win key for ?
I only use it at work to lock the computer or to launch windows 8/10 keyboard search.
I use a lot Alt-Gr as I use an Azerty keyboard to write French...

2) Is there a standard position for spacebars anymore ?
It seems it has changed so much since windows ten and lapytops Fn arrived !

3) It is true that some people don't notice that.
I've asked myself which layout I prefer and on a keyboard, I tend to put my fingers on 1-2-3 and it feels natural to extend them a bit to have 4-5-6 or even more for 7-8-6.
But what is natural but the force of habit...

4) I'm used to using a ISO keyboard and don't use it correctly so I manage that size.
I thought it was a nice was to squeeze in an extra key on a 40%.

Thanks

I use the win key for win-R for the run command, or just pressing it and starting to type to launch a program, which is much faster than finding it somewhere and clicking it. Kinda like you would use cmd-space in OSX for spotlight.

I must add, I play a lot of games, so I would need ctrl and alt for keybinds (MMOs). I also regularly use alt-tab.

I see your point with AltGr. Maybe you could have function to the left of right shift and move that punctuation key to where you currently have Del.

My point about the space bar comes back to gaming a bit I think. I am so used to left ctrl, win, alt being in the "standard" position, and I use my left thumb for alt, that's why I'd like the spacebar to start in the middle of X.

The short left shift and extra 1u key is a point of preference. I actually grew up typing on ISO-UK and have done right up until getting a HHKB. I find the longer left shift to be more comfortable.

Edit: another thing I would add is a numlock somehow, so that numbers could be in the traditional position as well.

[decker]

Tried to do the same for azerty, but couldn't get rid of the 4th numpad row...

[Malenky]

Just a thought, with the numberpad being so close to enter, do you really need the enter key on the numpad?

Edit: never mind, original doesn't but yours could probably drop it.

[iLLucionist]

On my Mac, winkey = cmd = used for almost anything. So yeah on Windows pretty useless. But you literally cannot use your mac without cmd.

I wouldn't say windows key is useless I tend to use it more than I use the alt key. I use it for moving windows around from one monitor to another (windows key + shift + arrow key) or snapping them around the screen  (windows key + arrow key).

Ah ok... I'm not a windows user myself so..

[decker]

I wasn't saying that Win, Ctrl, Alt and Fn were not very usefull.
I'm saying that there is a certain level of conceptual redundancy.

It would be possible to remap all the functions to one key.
That key would be better in the bottom left.

I tried doing that in my alternate reality keyboard.
5x14 atl abc-full

It contains that with my alternate reality keyboard, it has one function key, one favorite key and one altgr.
the function key launches things in blue like (copy, quit, etc), the favorite key is for user macros, and the altgr key for things in red.

[iLLucionist]

I wasn't saying that Win, Ctrl, Alt and Fn were not very usefull.
I'm saying that there is a certain level of conceptual redundancy.

It would be possible to remap all the functions to one key.
That key would be better in the bottom left.

I tried doing that in my alternate reality keyboard.
5x14 atl abc-full

It contains that with my alternate reality keyboard, it has one function key, one favorite key and one altgr.
the function key launches things in blue like (copy, quit, etc), the favorite key is for user macros, and the altgr key for things in red.

Looks nice actually. And you use alt for those symbols ([, ] etc)?

[decker]

I wasn't saying that Win, Ctrl, Alt and Fn were not very usefull.
I'm saying that there is a certain level of conceptual redundancy.

It would be possible to remap all the functions to one key.
That key would be better in the bottom left.

I tried doing that in my alternate reality keyboard.
5x14 atl abc-full

It contains that with my alternate reality keyboard, it has one function key, one favorite key and one altgr.
the function key launches things in blue like (copy, quit, etc), the favorite key is for user macros, and the altgr key for things in red.

Looks nice actually. And you use alt for those symbols ([, ] etc)?

Yes, it more like an Alternate Graphics key like on iso keyboards, to access 3rd position symbols (if shift is considered 2 position)

[decker]

Azerty 40% + Symbols row + 3/4 Numpad

So I've managed to get rid of the numpad 4th row on my azerty layout, at a cost !

[iLLucionist]

Azerty 40% + Symbols row + 3/4 Numpad

Show Image

Why are some keys blue? Are they on a different layer? Or did you forget to change the color in the designer app?

[decker]

Colors in this case is just for fun.
I left colorless keys with letters or numbers

[iLLucionist]

Colors in this case is just for fun.
I left colorless keys with letters or numbers

Ah, ok, now I understand!

[Malenky]

Azerty 40% + Symbols row + 3/4 Numpad

So I've managed to get rid of the numpad 4th row on my azerty layout, at a cost !

Show Image

Why not just have M in the standard position and use that for punctuation? If the key must be there, at least it's easier to learn coming from more standard layouts.

[decker]

Azerty 40% + Symbols row + 3/4 Numpad

So I've managed to get rid of the numpad 4th row on my azerty layout, at a cost !

Show Image

Why not just have M in the standard position and use that for punctuation? If the key must be there, at least it's easier to learn coming from more standard layouts.

Its standard position for azerty keyboards.
But it is not the critical part of the layout...

The position of the delete key is more exotic, does it bother anyone left of the arrows ?

[iLLucionist]

Its standard position for azerty keyboards.
But it is not the critical part of the layout...

The position of the delete key is more exotic, does it bother anyone left of the arrows ?

If I think about using it... I guess it would be a bit weird, because I often backspace at the end of a word BEFORE using a space to start a new one. So this would require me to use my thumb to backspace and then use my thumb again to insert space character. I think it would be a bit weird actually. But perhaps that is because I've never done it that way.