What about a Maglev / Hall Effect keyboard??

[leos]

I found this on web.  

maglev

concept-magnetic-levitating-keys-on-keyboard/

not a keyboard  but a calculator sperryedc3

any suggestions are welcome.........

[timw4mail]

I think that there have been keyboards like this in the earliest days of computing, but the technology is excessively expensive to be practical.

[PRISONER 24601]

Is it like a capacitive board, except using magnetic polarity for resistance (instead of springs)?... or do the magnets have to touch?

[PRISONER 24601]

Want.  

[IMG]http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/edc3loorder.jpg[/IG]

Would make a great bedroom clock.

I wonder if you could make illuminated keycaps out of nixie tubes....

Would make for one kickass steampunk mod...

[AndrewZorn]

alright, this is basically my idea, of course it has already been done.

so yeah, hopefully the magnets dont have to touch (also like my idea) so that activation is completely without contact

why does the article and stuff make this sound like super advanced technology?  MAGLEV?  come on, this is pretty simple stuff, especially if the key bottoms out/contacts to activate the switch (like the numpad one says... a shame)

[leos]

perhaps a geek...hacker here have already one. I wanna see a review.
How is it with the swich-lifetime??

[AndrewZorn]

if they did it right, the switch should last practically forever, or until you wore through the plastic stem etc

[leos]

if they did it right, the switch should last practically forever, or until you wore through the plastic stem etc

Ohh, i see.

and perhaps they wrote someday....."XXXXX rest in peace with his beloved indestructible, make for the eternity maglev YYYYYY Keyboard"

[leos]

Magnets don't last forever.

i thot this one has Elektromagnets

[AndrewZorn]

magnets dont last forever, but decent ones last a really long time (ie, "practically" forever, like i said above)

nothing will last "forever", the switch housing will deteriorate, wiring might corrode, etc

i just think that something magnetic based would be good for as long as anyone might want to use it.

[leos]

found the link

embotec mades a hall effect keyboardhttp://www.embotec.com/

[ch_123]

Hall Effect keyboards are used in applications where the keyboard is expected to be subjected to harsh conditions, last an awful long time, or probably both. There's no reason why a typist or gamer would be interested in them because, like capacitve boards, they are just contact mechanisms. They don't have any inherent tactile or auditory characteristics so (like capacitive boards) they need a mechanism placed over them. I'd say any that you'd find are linears because linear switches are cheaper and more reliable than tactile ones. Even if you could get a tactile one - sure the thing would last you forever, but it would probably be cheaper to stockpile multiple mechanicals or even capacitives than it would be to have a single hall-effect one.

[AndrewZorn]

yeah, id say a bump shouldnt be too hard to do, even contactless... add a weak magnet halfway down the side, at the point of whatever sensor is used... you should feel it.

[leos]

it's difficult to find a price on web. I ve send them a mail who i ask for the price incl. shipping to europe.

how they register each keystroke?

Hall effect sensor TLE 4905L

[pikapika]

i'd be interested in a price too, it seems quite nice technolog

[ch_123]

The Datahand has tactile feedback. And only magnets.

Depends on what it's designed for. As I said, most Hall effect keyboards that you'd find these days are probably going to be linears. You'd pay a very high price for something that wouldn't be all that good to type on.

Interesting idea sure, but better keyboards to be had for the money...

[AndrewZorn]

so instead of bottoming out, they top out... neat.
do the magnets make direct contact?  seems like that would fracture them someday

[microsoft windows]

I found this on web.  

maglev

concept-magnetic-levitating-keys-on-keyboard/

not a keyboard  but a calculator sperryedc3

any suggestions are welcome.........

I had one of those old desktop calculators with the vacuum-tube display.

[ak_nala]

found the link

embotec mades a hall effect keyboardhttp://www.embotec.com/

Didn't see a Hall Effect board there, just a "Magnetic Levitation Keyboard" that from their description seems to use a membrane under the bottom magnet for the actual switching action. So the opposing magnets just take the place of the spring and no physical contact with the membrane has to occur since the "depression" of the membrane will occur long before the magnets come in contact with even mildly powerful magnets (it looks like they are using rare earths).

As such, this could be interesting, as non-tactile, non-clicky switches go, since there would generally be even less tendency to bottom out than with say a buckling spring over membrane Model M.

Reason there would be less tendency to bottom out is due to the fact that the resistance the magnets transfer back to the finger as the key is depressed will NOT be a linear increase in pressure with a given distance, but rather proportional to the square of the distance. Instead of a linear force curve it would be roughly parabolic, increasing exponentially as the magnets approach each other (at least to a limit determined by the properties of the magnets).

The resultant cushioning effect of each stroke might be quite pleasant and you would definitely get a boost back up.

[ak_nala]

Actually, I had thought of this as an experiment some time ago as a way of replacing the springs as a point of wear/failure on buckling spring boards - interesting to see others with the same idea, and the commercial board.

Might be fun to try to make it tactile as well as combining it with something more durable than membranes, like capacitive, hall or reed switches.

Along tactile lines, a cross-wise magnet in the zone of travel would create a tactile disturbance in the field, but it wouldn't be very sharp and you'd still have to figure a way to make it coincide consistently with the switch activation.

A coil that fires a magnetic pulse momentarily strengthening the field of the bottom magnet (or disturbing the field of the top, key, magnet) when "contact" is detected might be ideal, I think. Result would effectively be instant feedback of electrical "contact" and ONLY when a keystroke is actually registered by the logic circuits. Unfortunately, the power requirements would likely be painful.

Edit: See below...

[ak_nala]

On last idea, if power weren't a problem, clickyness could be provided by a small clacker on the switch that's activated by the pulse of the Tactile Coil (somehow out of range or shielded from the "spring" magnets).

Or even a second, Click Coil - having the added benefit of being switchable. Throw a switch on for when you want the click, off when you want to let the spouse sleep.

Edit: Patents Pending, all rights reserved

[BucklingSpring]

found the link

embotec mades a hall effect keyboardhttp://www.embotec.com/

Nice finding!!!!! Thanks,

Santa, do you ear me, I want one for Xmas.

Keyboards full of magnets! How awsome is this, I can stick them on the fridge and they even come with a builtin degausser.

I didn't look that hard but I couldn't find where to buy those. HELP!!!

[elbowglue]

http://kr62573.en.asiaproduct.net/

Company Name: Embotec  
Business Type: Manufacturer  
Product/Services: Mouse, Counterfeit Money Detector, Computer Hardware, peripheral device  
Contactor: Mr. Borje Soderberg  
Address: 7935 SW 86 Street, Suite 822,Miami,Florida,South Korea 33143  
Phone: 1 786 2522189  
Company Website URL:    

Looks like we have a phone number for someone at embotech?

[JBert]

As ak_nala noted, this keyboard is non-linear but probably hasn't got any tactility unless the magnet on the bottom suddenly "sinks" into the membrane. Basically, the key is low-force at the top and increases force when pressed down.
The Datahand probably has the inverse situation, high force when in normal state and increasingly lower or constant force the further you move. Of course, in the dathand you probably know you made contact as soon as you displaced the key, making it a switch with almost instant activation and a large overtravel.

Anyway, those articles were posted in 2007 with the article stating "it is due out in the second half of this year". Guess this keyboard never made it to market if this is the last we heard from it?

[ricercar]

webwit:
Is the µTron your favorite keyboard? Datahand? I can't seem to figure it out from other people's commentary.

[JBert]

... the placement of the magnets and optical sensors is a design choice, you could put them halfway for instance.

I would call the placement of the optical sensor the most important choice though because this way it doesn't need any extra tactility - breaking the magnet's "lock" is enough to know that you made contact.
If the sensor were halfway, you'd need an extra mechanism to let you know you passed the activation point and you'd want some extra travel so you don't "hit the wall".

[Rajagra]

The trouble with keyboards with magnets is when you let your fillings get too close...

[1839cc]

Or if you have floppy disks nearby. MSWindows

[JBert]

What's this? The capo of bling?

Anyway, magnetic keyboards aren't so novel unless properly engineered.

[microsoft windows]

What is a hall-effect keyboard? Is it like the magnetic one the guy who made this thread showed us?

[JBert]

Basically hall-effect keyboards work like a capacitive keyboard, only is it a magnetic field you are measuring instead of capacitance.

The main advantage is that the sensors be completely isolated from the keys so that you have a 100% water proof keyboard (whether it can still function properly after pouring in sticky liquid remains to be seen though). You can't do that with capacitive sensors because the isolation will muck up the readings. The main disadvantage is the cost, probably due to the amount of magnets used.

The keyboard the OP shows works completely different: it uses two magnets instead of  the hammers and springs in a model M.

[microsoft windows]

Those hall-effect keyboards seem interesting. It would fun to see one some day.

[chimera15]

Pretty cool.  I bet you could make an alps switch use magnets instead of springs...  just take out the spring and use a drill to cut out places for some magnets.  Wonder what a white alps magnetic switch would feel like.  Might be pretty expensive, you'd need at least 66 mini powerful magnets for a full keyset.

[ak_nala]

You would need two magnets per Alps switch and would have to mount them very securely.

A magnet's exponentially increasing resistance as it is pressed might help with the bottoming out stigma Alps seem to have around here.  

You can pick up lots of 100 or more rare earth magnets on eBay in appropriate sizes for reasonable sums, but it would take some experimentation to find out what size and/or strength would be best.

What is the diameter of a typical Alps spring?

[ch_123]

Isn't the contact mechanism on the Alps switch also the thing that makes it click?

Either way, I don't think it would add anything to the switch because it can't replace any of the moving parts. It would prevent contact wear, but that's something you'd have to go out of your way to break anyway.

[leos]

Here some new Staff to Discuss.....

Hall Effect Keyboard Patent link

Low Cost Hall Effect Keyboard

and i found this on web:link

Single wafer miniature Hall-effect keyboard
Tan, C.M.; Zukotynski, S.
Industrial Electronics, IEEE Transactions on
Volume 36, Issue 3, Aug 1989 Page(s):446 - 450
Digital Object Identifier   10.1109/41.31509
Summary:A design is proposed for a miniature Hall-effect keyboard for use in hand-held calculators. The keyboard includes a set of MOSFETs as the Hall effect sensors and all the necessary electronic components for keyboard control and communication on a single silicon substrate. Because of the elimination of wire connections to each key-cap and the use of MOSFET circuitry for key sensing, the implementation is expected to lead to high reliability and low power consumption. Some design aspects, including mask layout, and process steps are described.



!!!!!Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone!!!!!

[chimera15]

Isn't the contact mechanism on the Alps switch also the thing that makes it click?

Either way, I don't think it would add anything to the switch because it can't replace any of the moving parts. It would prevent contact wear, but that's something you'd have to go out of your way to break anyway.

No, the spring, the part that makes the plunger move up, is completely separate from any of the other features of the switch in alps.  It would be a good candidate to try it on.  Size and strength of the magnets would be the only issue.

[ch_123]

As far as I have been lead to believe, in a click-action Alps switch, you have a tactile leaf, the spring, and the contact leaf, which is slightly bent in order to provide the click.

My point is, in order for the thing to have it's usual tactile/auditory feedback, you have to have all those parts. I'd say that the main point of failure in the Alps switch is going to be one of those parts break, as opposed to the contacts failing to register the key. So I'd question whether you'd make it more reliable or not.

[ak_nala]

No, as far as I can see the spring is a separate, and thus independently replaceable, element in the mechanism.  I think Chimera15 is right - an Alps switch would probably be an excellent candidate for seeing what can be done with this tech.

The point of failure on Alps usually seems to be either bending of the leaves, from age/fatigue, or dirt getting into the mechanism.

I think the reason this experiment might be interesting isn't necessarily to make it more reliable (the leaves and environmental contaminants will still be the design's weak points), but rather to make it more pleasant to type on.

If it works, it would be softer on the top end and more cushioning on the bottom end than a stock Alps, precisely the two most criticized aspects of an Alps switch's characteristics. Many seem to feel they are too hard to press at the beginning of the keypress and too easy to bottom out because of the resistive force suddenly dropping drastically after the tactile or click point (except with SGI and AEK II type dampered plungers). Properly executed, this may well resolve both issues.