i have seen the light... the light of linear switches

[phosphoric]

this weekend, i desoldered my magicforce 68 with gateron clears and swapped out the super light springs with some 62g ones i bought from mechanicalkeyboards. i tossed them into a plate and put some caps on and now the 62g zealios i have waiting for my next build feel like trash. i've been typing all day at work on my wasd v2 with cherry mx browns and i can't stop thinking about the clears. i can't stop thinking about how amazingly smooth and how beautifully springy the linear switch feels. i stopped working just to type up this post

[appleonama]

this weekend, i desoldered my magicforce 68 with gateron clears and swapped out the super light springs with some 62g ones i bought from mechanicalkeyboards. i tossed them into a plate and put some caps on and now the 62g zealios i have waiting for my next build feel like trash. i've been typing all day at work on my wasd v2 with cherry mx browns and i can't stop thinking about the clears. i can't stop thinking about how amazingly smooth and how beautifully springy the linear switch feels. i stopped working just to type up this post

I feel the same, I started typing on 62g gateron blacks and they just feel so amazing and smooth. I have mixed feeling about tactile switches and all my keyboards have tactile switches. 

[phosphoric]

this weekend, i desoldered my magicforce 68 with gateron clears and swapped out the super light springs with some 62g ones i bought from mechanicalkeyboards. i tossed them into a plate and put some caps on and now the 62g zealios i have waiting for my next build feel like trash. i've been typing all day at work on my wasd v2 with cherry mx browns and i can't stop thinking about the clears. i can't stop thinking about how amazingly smooth and how beautifully springy the linear switch feels. i stopped working just to type up this post

I feel the same, I started typing on 62g gateron blacks and they just feel so amazing and smooth. I have mixed feeling about tactile switches and all my keyboards have tactile switches. 

i don't know what i'm gonna do. i'm in the same situation - these loose switches are the only linear switch i have and i'm considering selling everything to get more of that methlike linear goodness

[mobbo]

I have a board with vintage blacks coming in soonish.

I have the same fear that I'll like them more than anything else, and I've already gone pretty deep into tactile keyboards.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

this weekend, i desoldered my magicforce 68 with gateron clears and swapped out the super light springs with some 62g ones i bought from mechanicalkeyboards. i tossed them into a plate and put some caps on and now the 62g zealios i have waiting for my next build feel like trash. i've been typing all day at work on my wasd v2 with cherry mx browns and i can't stop thinking about the clears. i can't stop thinking about how amazingly smooth and how beautifully springy the linear switch feels. i stopped working just to type up this post

I intuitively agree with you, though my experience with linear switches for typing has only been minimal, and I'm making guesses on the basis of theoretical information and the feel of tactile keys. I love typing on Cherry blacks, though they'd normally probably be too resistant for me to type very fast on. I'm currently typing on Novatouch (CM Storm with Topre) but still wondering if I shouldn't have bought one with MX reds instead. I'll just buy and see once I've got more cash to burn.

For the record, first impressions can be different from long-term impressions. Apart from the charm of novelty, it's also possible that your hard-working fingers find some rest in typing on anything different from your last-used keyboard. In this case also the lack of the barrier/microstop imposed by tactile feedback. The absence of tactile feedback and all of the fuss thereunto appertaining may initially feel liberating to you, but after a while you may come to miss it.

You certainly aren't the first or the last guy who likes linear switches for typing.

[phosphoric]

For the record, first impressions can be different from long-term impressions. Apart from the charm of novelty, it's also possible that your hard-working fingers find some rest in typing on anything different from your last-used keyboard. In this case also the lack of the barrier/microstop imposed by tactile feedback. The absence of tactile feedback and all of the fuss thereunto appertaining may initially feel liberating to you, but after a while you may come to miss it.

if it weren't for the fact that i swap out keyboards on a daily basis and find that i keep finding it refreshing to come back to mx browns the most of all (the keyboard with the least tactile feedback), i'd totally agree with this. but we'll definitely see how i feel in a couple of months when i do put these switches in a board, i guess

[merlin64]

the 62g spring + linear stem combo is pretty amazing.

I like vintage blacks, so that's what I've replaced them with in the past. Right now I've harvested some silenced MX stems from a used Corsair keyboard and will be making my next build with that.

[Niomosy]

I ended up lucky enough to be able to try typing on reds, blues, blacks, and reds prior to buying a mech board - though I already had an SGI Granite and IBM Model M that were rescues.

I ended up really enjoying reds and blacks, though blacks were a bit too tiring to type on after a while.  Bought an MX red board and have been pleased every since.  Tempted to try the 30g Gateron linears at some point as well.

[phosphoric]

I ended up lucky enough to be able to try typing on reds, blues, blacks, and reds prior to buying a mech board - though I already had an SGI Granite and IBM Model M that were rescues.

I ended up really enjoying reds and blacks, though blacks were a bit too tiring to type on after a while.  Bought an MX red board and have been pleased every since.  Tempted to try the 30g Gateron linears at some point as well.

so did i, but my first impressions made me jump to the conclusion that reds were too light and blacks were a mistake. i have since atoned for my sins

linear gateron clears were unbearably light imo, but ymmv

[demik]

you all disgust me.

tactile for life.

[chyros]

I ended up lucky enough to be able to try typing on reds, blues, blacks, and reds prior to buying a mech board - though I already had an SGI Granite and IBM Model M that were rescues.

I ended up really enjoying reds and blacks, though blacks were a bit too tiring to type on after a while.  Bought an MX red board and have been pleased every since.  Tempted to try the 30g Gateron linears at some point as well.

so did i, but my first impressions made me jump to the conclusion that reds were too light and blacks were a mistake. i have since atoned for my sins

Green Alps are smoother and better weighted than red or black Cherries, if you haven't tried them you still haven't seen the real light . Or you could linearise an AT101.

[klennkellon]

I enjoy gaming on my reds, but cannot stand to type on them. I swap for my model M whenever I'm not gaming.

[pr0ximity]

Welcome to the superior class of switch. As far as Cherry goes, linear are the only ones worth using. Every other Cherry switch is a linear with something hacked on.

Now you just need OG Cherry caps to complete your enlightenment. The shinier the better.

[phosphoric]

you all disgust me.

tactile for life.

i will tolerate topre, but i really, really don't like the hhkb layout, which is a shame because its domes are the best-feeling of any topre board

I ended up lucky enough to be able to try typing on reds, blues, blacks, and reds prior to buying a mech board - though I already had an SGI Granite and IBM Model M that were rescues.

I ended up really enjoying reds and blacks, though blacks were a bit too tiring to type on after a while.  Bought an MX red board and have been pleased every since.  Tempted to try the 30g Gateron linears at some point as well.

so did i, but my first impressions made me jump to the conclusion that reds were too light and blacks were a mistake. i have since atoned for my sins

Green Alps are smoother and better weighted than red or black Cherries, if you haven't tried them you still haven't seen the real light . Or you could linearise an AT101.

so i've heard. i may deconstruct my alps64 just to toss some green alps in, but well see


jk, the linear mod is so easy

[NewbieOneKenobi]

I ended up lucky enough to be able to try typing on reds, blues, blacks, and reds prior to buying a mech board - though I already had an SGI Granite and IBM Model M that were rescues.

That's a broad range.

I ended up really enjoying reds and blacks, though blacks were a bit too tiring to type on after a while.  Bought an MX red board and have been pleased every since.  Tempted to try the 30g Gateron linears at some point as well.

I didn't even know 30g linears existed. I'm soooo tempted to try that. I would probably need a long adaptation time, and the learning curve would be steep, but the results could be amazing.

[phosphoric]

I ended up really enjoying reds and blacks, though blacks were a bit too tiring to type on after a while.  Bought an MX red board and have been pleased every since.  Tempted to try the 30g Gateron linears at some point as well.

I didn't even know 30g linears existed. I'm soooo tempted to try that. I would probably need a long adaptation time, and the learning curve would be steep, but the results could be amazing.

i believe he may be referring to 35g gateron clears, referred to as "gateron white shaft" in the table in that link

[UnFocused]

I became interested in linear switches when a friend of mine found a Unitek K-256 keyboard at a demolition site he was working on. The keyboard itself was extremely flimsy, but it had these linear MX clones called Taiwan Jet Axis. I put them all into an old QFR with MX blues (I've come to hate MX blues). I had not used that QFR in a few months, but I've been rotating it in more and since putting those switches into the keyboard.

That led me to get interested in vintage MX blacks, so I bought a Wyse terminal board with a 1989 keyboard and put its switches into a brand new QFR. I did this last week and I've barely touched the KUL ES-87 with MX clears that I normally use at home.

I'm finally ready to build a keyboard (probably a Phantom because I like TKLs) rather than do switch swaps, and I've been thinking about Zealios. I got my hands on a couple of 65g and 78g and put them into my switch tester. Now, I realize that I can't truly appreciate them without having a keyboard full of them, but my impression is that they're just OK. They're lighter and definitely smoother than my KUL's MX clears, but I don't think they're that much better that I want to build a whole board out of them. What to do???

Well, an eBay purchase was delivered to my house today. It contained a Wyse keyboard that had been removed from it's case. The date code on this keyboard is from 1986. I'll be desoldering these soon and there's a very good chance that I'll be making my "endgame" keyboard with those switches, a Phantom PCB and a Tex aluminum case.

I thought I already had my "endgame" keyboard when I got my Realforce 87U 55g in early April. Bahahahaha!

[UnFocused]

Welcome to the superior class of switch. As far as Cherry goes, linear are the only ones worth using. Every other Cherry switch is a linear with something hacked on.

I agree with you about tactile Cherry switches having their tactility hacked on to them. It feels artificial.

I have a KUL with MX clears. It's wonderful keyboard and the switches are pretty nice, but it does feel like the tactile bump has just be glommed onto them. I have a few Model Ms, a Model F and a Realforce 87U 55g. The tactility of all of those switches feels natural and like they were designed that way (which they obviously were). I feel the same about the various tactile Alps boards that I've had.

[jacobolus]

The keyboard itself was extremely flimsy, but it had these linear MX clones called Taiwan Jet Axis.

“Axis” is the naïve English translation of the Chinese keyboard community’s word for what we call a “mechanical keyswitch”, though I think in some contexts it refers more specifically to what we call the “slider”. I suspect the “jet” thing is some kind of mistranslation of a word meaning “yellow”, though I’m not sure about that.

So “Taiwan Jet Axis” would probably be better translated as something like “unidentified yellow-slider Taiwanese switch”.

Alternately, the “jet” part might be referring to the slider shape, which looks kind of like it has some airplane engines strapped to the sides.

What to do???

The answer is clearly Alps.

[phosphoric]

hey guys, just removed the tactile leaves from my undamped cream alps in my alps64. it was probably the greatest single decision of my life; these things are a billion times smoother than the gateron clears, and the spring is just bouncy enough to make me want to cry in happiness. there's no friction whatsoever and it's absolutely amazing - to believe that these switches are from a keyboard that was manufactured in the 90s... just wild

[chyros]

hey guys, just removed the tactile leaves from my undamped cream alps in my alps64. it was probably the greatest single decision of my life; these things are a billion times smoother than the gateron clears, and the spring is just bouncy enough to make me want to cry in happiness. there's no friction whatsoever and it's absolutely amazing - to believe that these switches are from a keyboard that was manufactured in the 90s... just wild

Told you ^^ Welcome to the brotherhood, brother!

[HPE1000]

linear>all

[kekman]

gateron black is the light we need

[vegs]

I actually just finished swapping gateron blacks into my Filco yesterday. I think I've seen the light as well. Next step is trying vintage blacks or heavier springs

[NewbieOneKenobi]

I agree with you about tactile Cherry switches having their tactility hacked on to them. It feels artificial.

I wouldn't fully agree with that, but I would agree up to a point — the tactility isn't spectacular compared to the switch as a whole. Hence, Cherry linears may have the feel of a superior product to tactile Cherries.

I actually just finished swapping gateron blacks into my Filco yesterday. I think I've seen the light as well. Next step is trying vintage blacks or heavier springs

Vintage blacks are wonderful for typing and everything else as long as you have the fingers and ergonomics for it. Meaning a very well dimensioned working space, with particular attention to elbow/shoulder angles, heights and stuff like that, no RSI/CTS, preferably short and strong workman's fingers or those of a diehard pianist, depending on your style. I can appreciate that superb feel, though unfortunately my hands aren't fit for it. Unlike those of my best buddy, who used to be a construction worker and is a masseur now. Dude didn't have need for screwdrivers in his car repairs (he used to be into used sports cars and tinkering). It was probably the ideal setup for him. This reminds me I need to ask how it goes. I'm talking about the Compaq Chery in my sig, the one with a trackball. The switch is freaking delightful, sort of like having your fingers massaged (no, we aren't that close with my best buddy), it's just that the force is considerable. It feels almost like the switches are ready to explode under your fingers (due to the certain specific 'fulness' of the feel, the way I would describe it), except you know they won't. This is obviously magnificent for cursor keys. (Unless your touch is too light and quick tapping becomes a problem, in which case you need reds.)

[davkol]

Come on, ~60 cN at actuation isn't heavy, it's actually a tad bit less than most domes. And vintage blacks tend to be slightly lighter than that 60 cN.

[phosphoric]

hey guys, just removed the tactile leaves from my undamped cream alps in my alps64. it was probably the greatest single decision of my life; these things are a billion times smoother than the gateron clears, and the spring is just bouncy enough to make me want to cry in happiness. there's no friction whatsoever and it's absolutely amazing - to believe that these switches are from a keyboard that was manufactured in the 90s... just wild

Told you ^^ Welcome to the brotherhood, brother!

the cult of alps... no longer will i struggle with the weak plebian mx switch

[UnFocused]

The answer is clearly Alps.

I've had a number of Alps keyboards.

I had an Apple IIgs with it's keyboard full of orange Alps in the mid 80s and I still have my mom's Apple M0116 with the same switches. I also bought a Focus FK-2001 keyboard in 1989 with blue Alps. I never truly liked that keyboard or the blue alps, so I sold it very recently (thus my username of UnFocused). I also recently had and sold a V80 with Matias Quiet Click switches, but I sold to partially fund the purchase of the Realforce.

I was thinking of using the switches from the M0116 in a Clueboard, but I need that keyboard for my Apple IIgs.

[Niomosy]

you all disgust me.

tactile for life.

Never really cared much for tactility in keyboards.  I make no use of it so it's just excess noise for no good reason for me.  That said, Model Ms aren't bad but I couldn't use one day to day.  I'd drive everyone around me insane, particularly my wife.  I'd also got nutty without media keys or a Windows key.

If someone ever comes up with a modern beam spring, I'll pick one up to play around with though.  Still, I'd probably prefer a hall effect board as a daily driver.

[Niomosy]

I ended up really enjoying reds and blacks, though blacks were a bit too tiring to type on after a while.  Bought an MX red board and have been pleased every since.  Tempted to try the 30g Gateron linears at some point as well.

I didn't even know 30g linears existed. I'm soooo tempted to try that. I would probably need a long adaptation time, and the learning curve would be steep, but the results could be amazing.

i believe he may be referring to 35g gateron clears, referred to as "gateron white shaft" in the table in that link

Damn you're right.  I'm thinking of the Gaterons.  For some reason I thought they were 30g rather than 35g.  Probably me getting my 30g Topres mixed up with the Gaterons or something.

[kekman]

cherry linears aren't real linears, all the stems feel like they've been sanded down with rough grit sandpaper

[phosphoric]

cherry linears aren't real linears, all the stems feel like they've been sanded down with rough grit sandpaper

good thing I'm using alps and gateron

[E3E]

On both Alps and the MX side of things, I find tactile switches to be boring. I only like a few. Ergo clears are passable, Alps SKCM Green and SKCM Brown are nice because of a very rounded tactility. Other than those, I find most to be a little lackluster. I'm way more of a linear guy.

[Niomosy]

cherry linears aren't real linears, all the stems feel like they've been sanded down with rough grit sandpaper

I've got a white Alps board but just can't handle typing on it all the time.  Something a bit lighter is preferred.  If Huano (sp?) can finally finish off those Hall Effect switches with MX stems, I'll gladly give those a spin.

[quasistellar]

you all disgust me.

tactile for life.

Never really cared much for tactility in keyboards.  I make no use of it so it's just excess noise for no good reason for me.  That said, Model Ms aren't bad but I couldn't use one day to day.  I'd drive everyone around me insane, particularly my wife.  I'd also got nutty without media keys or a Windows key.

If someone ever comes up with a modern beam spring, I'll pick one up to play around with though.  Still, I'd probably prefer a hall effect board as a daily driver.

I think you're mistaking tactility for noise.  You can have tactility without the noise.  Remember:  tactile = touch

[Niomosy]

you all disgust me.

tactile for life.

Never really cared much for tactility in keyboards.  I make no use of it so it's just excess noise for no good reason for me.  That said, Model Ms aren't bad but I couldn't use one day to day.  I'd drive everyone around me insane, particularly my wife.  I'd also got nutty without media keys or a Windows key.

If someone ever comes up with a modern beam spring, I'll pick one up to play around with though.  Still, I'd probably prefer a hall effect board as a daily driver.

I think you're mistaking tactility for noise.  You can have tactility without the noise.  Remember:  tactile = touch

Understood and my statement stands.  I make no use of the tactility in tactile switches. 

[klennkellon]

Speaking of linears, Kailh Reds are absolute ****. Very grainy and sometimes the springs make a creaking sound. Their only saving grace is that their weighting is between MX Reds and MX Blacks, a nice sweet spot in the middle roughly the same as green ALPS.

[phosphoric]

Speaking of linears, Kailh Reds are absolute ****. Very grainy and sometimes the springs make a creaking sound. Their only saving grace is that their weighting is between MX Reds and MX Blacks, a nice sweet spot in the middle roughly the same as green ALPS.

ugh, so aggravating that the only decent option for stock weighted linear mx mount is gateron which doesn't have a midpoint between red and black/yellow... who needs something lighter than red, gateron?? who?!

[Lurch]

you all disgust me.

tactile for life.

[klennkellon]

Speaking of linears, Kailh Reds are absolute ****. Very grainy and sometimes the springs make a creaking sound. Their only saving grace is that their weighting is between MX Reds and MX Blacks, a nice sweet spot in the middle roughly the same as green ALPS.

ugh, so aggravating that the only decent option for stock weighted linear mx mount is gateron which doesn't have a midpoint between red and black/yellow... who needs something lighter than red, gateron?? who?!

35g topre still sells somehow. I can only imagine the snappy domes feel like mush at that weight.

[phosphoric]

Speaking of linears, Kailh Reds are absolute ****. Very grainy and sometimes the springs make a creaking sound. Their only saving grace is that their weighting is between MX Reds and MX Blacks, a nice sweet spot in the middle roughly the same as green ALPS.

ugh, so aggravating that the only decent option for stock weighted linear mx mount is gateron which doesn't have a midpoint between red and black/yellow... who needs something lighter than red, gateron?? who?!

35g topre still sells somehow. I can only imagine the snappy domes feel like mush at that weight.

are 35g uniform topre boards a thing? i thought they were just available in the variable weighted rf

[Jumie]

Which one is heavier; stock gateron black or gateron black with 62g spring? Iirc stock gateron black is 50g but I think its the actuation point instead of bottm out..

[Suruga Devil]

are 35g uniform topre boards a thing? i thought they were just available in the variable weighted rf

I think that they're available in some of the Japanese boards. Don't quote me on that, though.

[27]

I'm using 62g MX Blacks, they're definitely my switch of choice from now on.  My next build will be the same but with Gaterons and lube for the buttery smooth feels.

[27]

are 35g uniform topre boards a thing? i thought they were just available in the variable weighted rf

I think that they're available in some of the Japanese boards. Don't quote me on that, though.

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1508

There's 30g a least.  I've definitely heard of uniform 35g though 

[SBJ]

gateron black is the light we need

I like this post. Mostly because I'm using Gateron Blacks at the moment.

[phosphoric]

are 35g uniform topre boards a thing? i thought they were just available in the variable weighted rf

I think that they're available in some of the Japanese boards. Don't quote me on that, though.

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1508

There's 30g a least.  I've definitely heard of uniform 35g though 

interesting. i can't even being to imagine how it must feel to type on

[vegs]

Which one is heavier; stock gateron black or gateron black with 62g spring? Iirc stock gateron black is 50g but I think its the actuation point instead of bottm out..

IIRC stock Gateron Blacks are actually 55g actuation and 70g bottom out

[merlin64]

Which Gateron black are you talking about? The milky bottom ones may be as you have said

However, the new ones with the transparent top and black bottom have been rated at 50g actuation.

[vegs]

Which Gateron black are you talking about? The milky bottom ones may be as you have said

However, the new ones with the transparent top and black bottom have been rated at 50g actuation.

Ah sorry, you are right. I'm thinking about the milky ones.