Author Topic: IBM Model F: Big Clicky Disappointment (Read 16230 times)

Buckling_Summer · « **on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 04:00:31 »

I am very angry and very sad.
I have just received an IBM Model F, PC-AT keyboard (supposed refurbished but fully functional).

4 crucial keys are not clicky and NOT WORKING at all.

" [ "
" TAB "
" D "
" K "

I cannot describe with words how bad I am feeling right now!

****.. This new year starts with grief.

ocdonkb · « **Reply #1 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 04:08:25 »

Where did you get this from? If you got it off Ebay, let us know which seller.

sandy55 · « **Reply #2 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 04:48:43 »

Quote from: Buckling_Summer;147720

4 crucial keys are not clicky and NOT WORKING at all.

" [ "
" TAB "
" D "
" K "

Once pull out those keys and reseat them back properly.

ch_123 · « **Reply #3 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 06:34:08 »

Sandy's advice should work, although I'd add to it by pointing out that you should hold the keyboard up, and keep it upside-down while you reinsert the key. This ensures the spring lines up with the notch inside the keycap correctly.

My Model F did at one point have a dodgy Y key. Every once in a while it would jam up so that it didn't click and you'd have to press it a few times to get it clicking again. This issue went away when I disassembled it completely.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #4 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 06:35:57 »

I'd try rebuilding the keyswitches to the maximum extent that does not require removing the metal plate. Take out the key and the spring and make sure it looks like the others.

I'd give the guy on ebay a nice low rating. He sold you something he said worked and it doesn't.

ch_123 · « **Reply #5 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 06:41:43 »

Quote from: microsoft windows;147732

I'd try rebuilding the keyswitches to the maximum extent that does not require removing the metal plate. Take out the key and the spring and make sure it looks like the others.

I'd give the guy on ebay a nice low rating. He sold you something he said worked and it doesn't.

As I've said, buckling springs don't travel well. There seems to be a lot of people who require the keycaps to be reseated when they've got a Model M from eBay, or a Unicomp. People who've had them shipped overseas seem to be the worst affected.

Also, opening the plate on a Model F is a trivial job because the top plate is also made of metal, and therefore they just slide into eachother. You can break down and reassemble a Model F within a half hour.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #6 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 06:49:35 »

So they don't have the rivets of a Model M? This makes me want to get a Model F terminal keyboard even more.

Buckling_Summer · « **Reply #7 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 07:04:40 »

Guys, i did not buy from eBay!
And that's the shocking thing.

Thanks a lot for the technical details but I have never opened a keyboard before.
I am not paid for fixing keyboards. I pay for good working keyboards.
In times of financial crisis, for me to have given lots of money for something broken is tragic.

Because this is not enough, I am facing the fact that the PS2 adaptor does not seem to work with my modern PC only with the old PC i have (P3-1Ghz).

sandy55 · « **Reply #8 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 07:15:35 »

No need to open your F, just pull out 4 keys and put them back according to ch_123's advice. If a key buckles and clicks it will register a symbol assigned. if it doesn't buckle, it won't register anything ( or may register randomly ).

ch_123 · « **Reply #9 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 07:21:50 »

Quote from: Buckling_Summer;147741

Guys, i did not buy from eBay!
And that's the shocking thing.

Thanks a lot for the technical details but I have never opened a keyboard before.

The disassembly was something that would only happen in very extreme cases. The keycap removal will take all of ten seconds and should fix your issues.

Quote

I am not paid for fixing keyboards. I pay for good working keyboards.
In times of financial crisis, for me to have given lots of money for something broken is tragic.

When you are dealing with 25 year old electronics, you need to be prepared to deal with at least some issues.

Quote

Because this is not enough, I am facing the fact that the PS2 adaptor does not seem to work with my modern PC only with the old PC i have (P3-1Ghz).

Probably an issue with your motherboard. Ironically, a USB adapter would probably solve your problems here.

Quote

So they don't have the rivets of a Model M? This makes me want to get a Model F terminal keyboard even more.

No, and the PCB slots into the back plate. See this.

quadibloc · « **Reply #10 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 08:10:04 »

Quote from: Buckling_Summer;147741

Because this is not enough, I am facing the fact that the PS2 adaptor does not seem to work with my modern PC only with the old PC i have (P3-1Ghz).

This is an issue I have heard of. Apparently some computers do not provide enough power from their PS/2 port to allow a Model M to be used, and I suppose this would also apply to a Model F.

Early third-party PC keyboards also had an XT/AT switch, because the original IBM PC was built before the AT introduced Scan Code Set 2, and would therefore not handle a newer keyboard properly. I suppose it might also be possible, although I have not heard of it happening, that a computer might have a BIOS issue preventing it from working with a Scan Code Set 1 - only keyboard as well.

Buckling_Summer · « **Reply #11 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 08:49:58 »

Quote from: quadibloc;147747

This is an issue I have heard of. Apparently some computers do not provide enough power from their PS/2 port to allow a Model M to be used, and I suppose this would also apply to a Model F.

Early third-party PC keyboards also had an XT/AT switch, because the original IBM PC was built before the AT introduced Scan Code Set 2, and would therefore not handle a newer keyboard properly. I suppose it might also be possible, although I have not heard of it happening, that a computer might have a BIOS issue preventing it from working with a Scan Code Set 1 - only keyboard as well.

My model M works fine though in the new PC.

Buckling_Summer · « **Reply #12 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 08:54:47 »

Quote from: ch_123;147743

When you are dealing with 25 year old electronics, you need to be prepared to deal with at least some issues.

Yes you are right from your point of view. But they advertise 100% functionality. When you have paid 185 dollars you are prepared to get a decent working model F. Used keyboard but working keyboard for god's sake.

More to say later about them.

Buckling_Summer · « **Reply #13 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 09:00:26 »

Quote from: sandy55;147742

No need to open your F, just pull out 4 keys and put them back according to ch_123's advice. If a key buckles and clicks it will register a symbol assigned. if it doesn't buckle, it won't register anything ( or may register randomly ).

Thanks brothers for all the support.
How am i supposed to pull the keys out?
By what means of an instrument? A Screwdriver, a knife or with pliers?
Any post with photo-instructions? I know it is easy but just to be sure.

timw4mail · « **Reply #14 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 09:02:42 »

Quote from: Buckling_Summer;147759

Thanks brothers for all the support.
How am i supposed to pull the keys out?
By what means of an instrument? A Screwdriver, a knife or with pliers?
Any post with photo-instructions? I know it is easy but just to be sure.

The keys come off of buckling springs really easily. A butter knife is as easy as anything.

ch_123 · « **Reply #15 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 09:04:19 »

Use a flathead screwdriver. Just stick it under the cap and yank upwards. Unlike with other mechanisms, the keycaps for buckling springs are very hard to damage so you don't have to worry about breaking it.

I'd take a pic, but I don't have access to any of my buckling spring keyboards at the moment.

Buckling_Summer · « **Reply #16 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 09:24:13 »

I fixed it! This is probably my first geekhack operation..
I used a flat head screwdriver with careful movements.
I repositioned all the keycaps by pushing down them and tilting forward the keyboard. Not necessary upside down. Phew! Now I can sleep OK.
All springs in place.. Now I am giving it a test -type..
The SPACE key feels much more hard than my Model M. Is it normal?

ch_123 · « **Reply #17 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 09:27:14 »

Yeah, the space bar is usually about 50% more stiff than the rest of the keys. You get used to it after a little while.

It isn't absolutely necessary to hold it upside-down. Tilting it forward would have the same effect, but upside-down is just the way I do it.

Buckling_Summer · « **Reply #18 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 09:33:25 »

I am happy. Thanks to you all guys.
And the seller contact me ASAP to tell me not to worry. It is caused from the transport overseas.

Now I must search for a PS2-to-USB adaptor that works fine with the model F as well as with the sweet Lexmarkian model M 82G2383 I've got.

ch_123 · « **Reply #19 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 09:43:52 »

Check this out.

ch_123 · « **Reply #20 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 10:16:51 »

Depends on where the key is. If it's in amongst other keys, I use the screwdriver. If it's on the periphery, I can usually take it out with my fingers.

Mercen_505 · « **Reply #21 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 10:22:29 »

The space bar on my Model F XT isn't too bad, but the AT version I have is incredibly stiff... to the point where I don't particularly enjoy using it. It really doesn't feel as nice as the XT, which is a shame because I can actually tolerate the AT's layout.

Like others have noted, depending on various factors, such as the phase of the moon or how many dogs are barking when you open the box, one or more keys on a model M keyboard may be befunged upon receipt. Usually a good reseating will fix the problem. On rare occasions multiple reseatings may be necessary. One of the M2s I bought last year had a problem with the enter key on the keypad sticking (and not clicking, either). After about eight or nine reseatings it finally started behaving properly.

My Model F XT arrived with about twenty keys knocked clean off. I was pretty concerned at first, but there was no actual damage... just a rough transit!

ricercar · « **Reply #22 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 10:23:45 »

Congratulations on your first fix, 'Summer. We'll have you deep in the electronics in no time!:evil:

timw4mail · « **Reply #23 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 10:30:37 »

Quote from: ripster;147791

Glad it's working. That spacebar is 90g. Not a keyboard for girlyman thumbs.

Another reason to buy NIB, the foam keeps the keys from popping off.

It makes sense to have your two strongest "fingers" get the most load, though, doesn't it?

ch_123 · « **Reply #24 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 10:32:52 »

Quote from: ripster;147791

Glad it's working. That spacebar is 90g. Not a keyboard for girlyman thumbs.

Another reason to buy NIB, the foam keeps the keys from popping off.

Is there actually foam covering the top plate on your Model F?

Buckling_Summer · « **Reply #25 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 11:00:35 »

Quote from: ch_123;147794

Is there actually foam covering the top plate on your Model F?

Ripster! This is a NIB!!! New Baby.

Is this the last aprox. $450 model F NIB I saw in clickykeyboards?

By the way: IBM Model F PC-AT 84 keys => First Impressions.

Sound-Clickiness: I think that sounds completely different than my Model-M. It is not louder, but it is definetely crispier, sweeter and high pitched!
Performance- Tactile Feeling: Perfect, great tactile feedback. I am typing faster on my Model-F already. Ideal distance, bouncing back, better springs. I do not know. I feel that when the Model-F spring buckles, the key bottoms out in less time than the Model-M.
Video- Appearance: Vintage dream, you know this nice old-school feeling. I love the 80s.
Endurance in time: Seems like a Soviet tank. Don't know, even not a NIB I hope it lasts. What do you think about the springs?

timw4mail · « **Reply #26 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 11:03:14 »

Quote from: Buckling_Summer;147808

Endurance in time: Seems like a Soviet tank. Don't know, even not a NIB I hope it lasts. What do you think about the springs?

Well, according to Unicomp, the Model M buckling springs last just about forever, so I would think that the Model F springs would last just about as long, if not longer.

ch_123 · « **Reply #27 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 11:26:45 »

MaxLugar said that the worse of his 8 Model Fs was better than his best Model M, and that his NIB one wasn't that much better than some of the used ones he had.

Buckling_Summer · « **Reply #28 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 11:41:05 »

That's incredible.. That's why they call it the king of keyboards!
Now my Model-M seems to be softer.

itlnstln · « **Reply #29 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 12:02:27 »

Quote from: ripster;147832

This is one of those posts where you wish Vbulletin would allow the OP to change Post Titles.

I wonder why that is (the ability to change the title, that is). It would prevent a lot of the duplicate posts (especially in the Marketplace).

timw4mail · « **Reply #30 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 12:44:54 »

Guess vB doesn't have a very good database design, then.

Buckling_Summer · « **Reply #31 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 12:53:06 »

Quote from: kishy;147838

Something to do with referential integrity in the database (basically, all the references to the title on the site would need to be altered, and though that's not really a big job, there must be concerns about the software reliably doing it or they'd allow it).

Wow, I actually did learn something in Intro to Databases.

Good to hear the OP's big clicky disappointment turned into a big clicky success though!

I think after the creation of Model-F all the other keyboards ought to be dumped and destroyed!
The geekhack community forum should dedicate 100% all its threads to the history, performance, troubleshooting and revival of the legendary model-F and all the imaginary clones of it. Viva the capacitative buckling springs*

General Ban in all the other switches. For the benefit of Mankind.

* or beam springs i have never felt on my fingertips?

quadibloc · « **Reply #32 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 13:20:36 »

Quote from: Buckling_Summer;147857

I think after the creation of Model-F all the other keyboards ought to be dumped and destroyed!

As you note, there are still the beam springs to consider.

itlnstln · « **Reply #33 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 13:32:09 »

UPDATE THREAD_ID_TABLE
SET THREAD_TITLE = 'Something'
WHERE THREAD_ID = 1234

If it isn't any easier than this, I would question the vB database structure. If the reference for any other table is the thread name, that would be crappy.

exia · « **Reply #34 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 13:47:29 »

Quote from: Buckling_Summer;147758

Yes you are right from your point of view. But they advertise 100% functionality. When you have paid 185 dollars you are prepared to get a decent working model F. Used keyboard but working keyboard for god's sake.

More to say later about them.

$185? wow. shoulda spent a little more to get a Realforce.

msiegel · « **Reply #35 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 13:49:29 »

Quote from: Buckling_Summer;147857

revival of the legendary model-F

i vote YES

now, who has injection-molding and spring-winding equipment?

msiegel · « **Reply #36 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 14:09:30 »

Quote from: ripster;147885

That mod of yours DOES seem to be taking a while.

told u

Quote from: ripster;147885

I don't think there any inactive switch pads (like the 4 or 5 on a Model M) I could access on this are there?

here are the pads in the main block. there are quite a few in the Enter area, but only a couple extras in the bottom row:

microsoft windows · « **Reply #37 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 14:19:22 »

Just pry 'em off. I do that to my IBM all the time!

microsoft windows · « **Reply #38 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 14:21:56 »

I found a site where I can buy a Model F 122-key terminal board. If I get it I'll take it apart for the Kishy mod and report to you guys whether or not there are any empty contacts.

ch_123 · « **Reply #39 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 14:28:55 »

Been there, done that.

Oddly enough, some of the contacts didn't pick up anything. The one between L-Shift and Z worked fine though.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #40 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 14:29:14 »

Quote from: kishy;147895

If you've got the money, go for it. Your contribution to the terminal keyboard information collection would be greatly appreciated

And you know I'm currently selling a Model M version, right? I'm sure the Fs are more entertaining though.

I already have a Model M (an M5-2 that is) and have wanted to have a Model F since they feel different. I might get an M terminal keyboard later though.

JBert · « **Reply #41 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 14:44:32 »

Quote from: Mercen_505;147789

My Model F XT arrived with about twenty keys knocked clean off. I was pretty concerned at first, but there was no actual damage... just a rough transit!

When I got my model F AT, one of the function keys was missing, either from overseas shipment or because the customs agency was a bit rough when they opened the heavy box. I started panicking at first because I couldn't find the keycap in that box full of styrofoam chips, thinking it might have fallen out.

Turned out it was just hiding somewhere in a corner behind a heap of the pink stuff. Now I know why some of the best sellers wrap their keyboards in plastic foil before stuffing it into those chips...

Quote from: ripster;147885

Somebody was going to post a spacebar mod.

Yeah, that's me. I'm just lazy and haven't got around to typing it out completely. The spacebar spring is actually easy to mod, but I wanted to add a complete tutorial on (dis-)assembly of a model F because it turns out that is the hardest part.

Basically, you take the spacebar spring, hold it above your thigh in the same fashion it would sit in the keyboard when it is wholly assembled and push down the ends for about 3-5 cm.

Where a normal spring is about 5-6mm high, the bent spring should be about 3mm. This way, I got a comfortable 60g. You can go lower, but this means that the spacebar won't have enough upforce to properly debuckle all the time.

You can see it needs some pictures though - pure text-form can be somewhat cryptic.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #42 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 19:01:05 »

I found a Model F 3179 terminal keyboard on the Internet for $33.95 including shipping. I think I might get it to convert to PC use. Anyone have any recommendations for replacement cables for it for PC usage?

ch_123 · « **Reply #43 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 19:14:46 »

The cable from an AT Model F is probably the best, but you can easily make a suitable cable from a standard PS/2 cable. There's a pinout for the board somewhere or other, I'll post it if I find it.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #44 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 19:34:34 »

I'm not sure if I can find one of those, but I have an old SDL cable that came from an M5-2. I'll see if I can use the keyboard part of that.

ch_123 · « **Reply #45 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 19:42:45 »

Wouldn't bother wasting a good SDL cable on it. Dig an old keyboard out of skip, steal it's PS/2 cable and wire it up to the Berg connector inside the Model F.

overdriver · « **Reply #46 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 19:50:43 »

Quote from: microsoft windows;147994

I found a Model F 3179 terminal keyboard on the Internet for $33.95 including shipping. I think I might get it to convert to PC use.

Is that 122 keys one? I read IBM wiki but still confusing. and to convert it requires just rewiring, right?

ch_123 · « **Reply #47 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 19:53:14 »

Sorry about that, the IBM Wiki doesn't have an awful lot of info on the terminal keyboards at the moment. Yeah, they would be similar to the PC 3270 Model F keyboard you can see in the IBM Wiki.

ch_123 · « **Reply #48 on:** Mon, 04 January 2010, 20:06:44 »

Quote from: microsoft windows;147994

I found a Model F 3179 terminal keyboard on the Internet for $33.95 including shipping. I think I might get it to convert to PC use. Anyone have any recommendations for replacement cables for it for PC usage?

See this.

maxlugar · « **Reply #49 on:** Tue, 05 January 2010, 01:26:57 »

Quote from: Buckling_Summer;147857

I think after the creation of Model-F all the other keyboards ought to be dumped and destroyed!
The geekhack community forum should dedicate 100% all its threads to the history, performance, troubleshooting and revival of the legendary model-F and all the imaginary clones of it. Viva the capacitative buckling springs*

General Ban in all the other switches. For the benefit of Mankind.

* or beam springs i have never felt on my fingertips?

Congratulations and well said. I'm pleased you're enjoying your "new" 84-key PC AT keyboard!

I've tried many keyboards and like a lot of different key switches, but the the 84-key PC AT Model F is as good as it gets. Regardless of it's detractors, it truly is the KING of keyboards.

My NIB is not that different from my used 84-keys so don't worry about it wearing out or even the feel of the springs significantly changing over time.

Beam spring keyboards sound great in theory, but have you ever typed on one? I haven't. Can they even be converted to work with a modern PC?

You will probably try many different keyboards, but if you are like me, you will always return to your 84-key PC AT keyboard.

News:

Author Topic: IBM Model F: Big Clicky Disappointment (Read 16230 times)