Waggly Cherry Keys (G80-5000) - compared to a Siemens KBPC-E

[ibu]

Yesterday my first Cherry arrived.
It's a G80-5000.

Art. No. G80-5000 HAADE /08
Serial G 002611 H24

I choosed it, because it has (almost) exactly the same layout as my keyboard I used before - a Siemens KBPC-E.

What I like at the Cherry, is the force feedback.
What I dislike, is the shakiness of the keys.
When you don't press them, but just move them your finger slightly laterally, the key moves.

It does hardly at the Siemens. Their keys have a strong vertical guidance.

What I also dislike at the Cherry is the sound. It's quite "plastic".

So far, my first impression.

I would appreciate some comments about your estimation of shakiness.

[spolia optima]

The only thing I can add is 'you'll get used to it'. I thought they were wobbly at first, now I don't even notice it. Maybe because I'm typing faster. That's probably it

[ch_123]

People have complained before about the cheap feeling of the G80-5000, so you're not alone in that regard.

I would wonder whether the shakiness is a keycap thing. I don't find the keys on my Cherry switch Filco to be particularly shaky or loose, so maybe it just has low quality keycaps which could be swapped for better ones.

[didjamatic]

I primarily use Topre and Cherry Brown MX keyboards and one of the first things I have to get used to when going back to the Cherry is the lateral instability.  Topres are very laterally stable and tight which I have grown to love.  But I also really like Cherry's, you will get used to it for sure.

Some Cherry keycaps are really cheap feeling to me.  If you want to change the sound a bit, replace your alpha and numeric keys with double shots.  (shameless plug alert) there are some on ebay right now.  It's me selling them, I only have 4 more sets total so that means I'm probably only going to sell 2 more in black, I may sell 1 white set.

[bsvP585hUO2Y6]

didjamatic wrote on 5971 September 1993:

> Some Cherry keycaps are really cheap feeling to me. If you want to
> change the sound a bit, replace your alpha and numeric keys with
> double shots. (shameless plug alert) there are some on ebay right
> now.

I'm afraid this G80-5000 already has 2-shot keys.

[itlnstln]

The "L" type keys on both my Cherry 'boards are very stable.  I get a little more wiggle (but not much) from my Filco.  I guess they just used some cheap keys in the 5000.  That's disappointing as I really want one.  I guess you could always swap out the caps with something else, though.

[didjamatic]

I'm afraid this G80-5000 already has 2-shot keys.

Then you're screwed.

Just kidding.  Type on it for a bit and it won't bug you so much once you get the feel for it.

Are you referring to the sloppiness in Cherry switches, or in a Cherry PCB board vs. a plate mounted board such as a Filco?  The lateral movement of the keys I'm referring to is in the switch itself, not the board or mounting.  I don't notice any more or less play in Cherry vs. Filco boards.

[keyb_gr]

The keys on Cherry MX equipped boards do wobble around a bit. It's the switches themselves. Quite honestly I've never minded a whole lot, since (a) the keys on the M also do it and (b) the switches will actuate with low friction regardless of angle.

I think rubber domes are more critical here, since they don't have very sharply defined tactility to begin with. If those are wobbly, they feel like crap. Thus the de-wobbling efforts in better rubber dome boards, including Topres. (This is what the key stem in Siemens boards looks like. The stems on iRocks and IBM RapidAccess I boards also seem to be corner-supported, à la Cherry MY.)

[itlnstln]

I love that 'board.  It looks sweet with the black, blank caps.

[lowpoly]

I really like the plastic sound. Especially on my Mini which has very little resonance.

[itlnstln]

I really like the plastic sound. Especially on my Mini which has very little resonance.

I, too, prefer the softer, "plasticky" sound of the Cherry 'boards.  I think this is due to the keycaps Cherry uses.  The Filco has a high-pitched tapping sound that is caused, in part, by its thinner caps.

[keyb_gr]

I disagree, I say it is the keycaps. Maybe it is an ergo thing, by design? It would make the board "softer", like suspension on a car.

It is there on every single G80 that I own, possibly most prominently on blacks. I tested it with the Esc key on my G80-1000 - the key stem won't twist under normal forces, but the stem in the switch definitely is a bit loose and can be moved by a fraction of a mm (and with the key height on top of that, the amplitude will only increase). Case closed.

The only case of truly unstable keycaps that I ever heard of was the TVS Gold, and apparently a newer black USB version didn't exhibit that any more.

[itlnstln]

Well, whatever the case, the OP better not try ALPS.  They will be sorely disappointed.

[Chao]

Cherry G80-3600 and have been working on a review due to red switches. In the processes had examined the key "waggle" and concur with keyb_gr on the cause.

[ricercar]

I've been swapping Cherry keycaps between various boards obsessively often the last few weeks, and a pattern appears to me from a sample size of 3 MY clear keyboards and 4 MX browns. There are two types of caps (small and large) and two types of switch (small and large).

Cherry MY switches tend to have a thicker stem "+" than Cherry MX browns, and the accompanying caps are designed for the stem they ship with.

• MX brown caps (small) on MY clear switches (large) are firm and almost difficult to seat on the stems. There's a definite resistance when seating a MY cap on a MX brown stem. I've actually hesitated putting my double-shot caps from a Cherry brown POS keyboard onto a MY switch, because I'm afraid the MY stems will loosen the keys and decrease the firmness on brown stems.
  
  
• MY caps (large) on MX brown stems (small) have a looser fit, definitely wobbly, definite lateral movement compared to any other combination, To the point where I've actually flipped off a MY cap from a brown stem while typing. I was aiming for E and touched 4 and the 4 MY cap fell off.
  
  
• Swapping caps among like-stemmed keyboards (large with large, small with small) produces a cap-to-key fit which is identical to their original board. MX brown caps fit equally well on all my MX brown boards; MY clear caps fit equally well on all my MY clear boards.
  

I'd be interested in reading whether anyone else has seen a significant pattern that supports or refutes this informal conclusion. I plan to test MX black caps and stems later today with the aforementioned caps and stems. I hypothesize it's a MY to MX thing, that MX black results will be the same as MX brown results, but I'll report either way.

[itlnstln]

I wish the Cherry and Filco caps were completely interchangable.  I like the lower profile of the Cherry keycaps.  I find them a little easier to type on, and I am a little faster and more accurate with them.  I'm not sure why, though.  I experienced the same effect going back and forth between my ABS and my Dell.  The Dell was a little lower profile and, thus, easier to type on for me.

[itlnstln]

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the switches are still mounted off-center. I won't be able to check until later, though.

[ibu]

Thanks for your answers.

I removed a key cap (N).
The browne part of the switch could be moved laterally a lot. More precisely: when you lay a vertical axis through the brown part, the axis moves at the face of a cone.

Therefor I don't think the type/quality of the key caps are responsible for the waggliness on its own (if at all).

To the users of an IBM M/ Unicomp:
How waggly are the key caps in comparison to keyboards with brown switches?

[ibu]

@webwit
Of course I believe you that your 5000 isn't wobbly. But I have no idea how any key cap on my 5000 could reduce the wobbliness?
Even the black part of the switch wobbles.

And the key caps just sit on top of the brown part. They are - in my 5000 - not able to guide/stabilize the switch, I suppose.

[ibu]

@webwit
And there is even a third type or better, a third factor, for wobbliness.
The movement of the brown part in relation to the black part (Sorry, I do not know the correct jargon for that parts of the a single switch).

All three factors in other words:

1 Movement of the cap in relation to the brown part
2 Movement of the brown part in relation to the black part
3 Movement of the black part in relation to the body, the base, of the keyboard

But:
Do you agree that a key cap could not reduce the wobbliness of the brown part nor could it reduce the wobbliness of the black part?

May be the cause for the different "total wobbliness" of your 5000s are different amounts of wobbliness of the type 2 and 3.

If not, if have no idea about the causes.
But I'm sure the mystery will be clarified

[keyb_gr]

Factor 1 should usually be a non-issue, provided they aren't very loose-fitting keycaps from MYs or unstable in themselves (the aforementioned sample of the TVS Gold).

Factor 2 is what I was also referring to. The stem (here the brown part) wobbles a bit in relation to the switch casing (the black part).

Factor 3 should not normally occur, otherwise the switch would be loose and in most cases not even working. After all, it sits on the PCB and is soldered there.

As for Model M key wobbling, it's somewhat better for the mid-sized stabilized keys (RShift, Backspace, Enter, Numpad +), but otherwise there's not much in it. Feels great nonentheless.

[ibu]

@keyb_gr
Like you I think factor 1 is a non-issue. But it is impossible to watch this movement, because the cap covers the stem (brown part).

Factor 3 is, at my keyboard, absolutely an issue. The black part moves in relation to the case.

[keyb_gr]

Factor 3 is, at my keyboard, absolutely an issue. The black part moves in relation to the case.

Then it would seem the circuit board is not fixed terribly well. One of my G80-3000s has a bit of rattle because of that. Normally the case construction clamps the PCB so that it won't move. I'm not too familiar with the ErgoPlus models though.

[ibu]

Then it would seem the circuit board is not fixed terribly well.

But the black part of each switch wobbles relative to beige case.

[keyb_gr]

Now I know what you mean - the top half of the switch case also moves around a bit (it's a 2-part clipped affair). That required quite a bit more force than moving just the stem though.

[ibu]

Now I know what you mean - the top half of the switch case also moves around a bit (it's a 2-part clipped affair). That required quite a bit more force than moving just the stem though.

Yep.

[itlnstln]

ALPS < Cherry/Model M < Topre
 
 
That's all I know; that's all I really care about.

[ibu]

This discussion is clear as mud.

From mud the Lotus rises.
Ohmmmmm.

Tommorow a G80-3000 will arrive. I'm curious if it is as wobbly and if it sounds as "plastic" as the 5000.

If so, Cherries do not fit to me.

[ibu]

My least wobbly keyboard is the....

Ta Dum!

IBM M4

Such a keyboard could be used appropriately only together with
an ass shaking wobble cushion!!!!!!1

[ibu]

Indeed.
True wobbliness gourmets want to choose.

conical wobbliness
north-south wobbliness
east-west wobbliness
vibrating wobbliness
pressure point wobbliness
post pulse oszillation wobbliness
changing texture wobbliness
metamorphosing wobbliness
...

[keyb_gr]

My least wobbly keyboard is the....

Ta Dum!

IBM M4


It's that unique conical rubber sleeve and low profile keys.

Key height does indeed play a central role here. A Model M has very high keycaps, which amplifies any kind of wobbling even more.

Doesn't mean I'd want to use it every day though.

Precisely my point. As we've seen, there are several keyswitches with noticeable wobble that are highly regarded nonetheless - in the switch poll, buckling spring and Cherry blues came out right on top, and for good reason.

Just like I said, low wobble is a must for good feel on a rubber dome board. It is not required to the same degree in mechanical switches. Black Alps are bad for more reasons than just wobble - the roughness and tendency to bottom out real hard bothered me a whole lot more. They are indeed the last kind of switch I would recommend to someone coming from a Siemens board.

[ibu]

Tommorow a G80-3000 will arrive. I'm curious if it is as wobbly and if it sounds as "plastic" as the 5000.

If so, Cherries do not fit to me.

The G80-3000 LQMDE (Serial C 002058 N51, white switches) is indeed as wobbly than my G80-5000.
The sound is a little less "plastic" but ugly enough.

Bad luck for me.
I have to try something else.
A nice (not to mix with silent) sound and low wobbliness is important for me.
Sound even more.

Tiny thing I miss at my 5000: the little gnupsie on the F and J key.
The 3000 has them.
Visually I prefer the dark gray inscription on the 3000 versus the deep black on the 5000.

Hope, I can test a Modell M soon.
None of my friends in Berlin uses one unfortunately.

[keyb_gr]

The G80-3000 LQMDE (Serial C 002058 N51, white switches) is indeed as wobbly than my G80-5000.

That's the earliest Czech-made G80-3000 I've seen so far (week 51, 2001).

The sound is a little less "plastic" but ugly enough.

Bad luck for me.
I have to try something else.
A nice (not to mix with silent) sound and low wobbliness is important for me.
Sound even more.

Clears are not that exciting sounding, that's true. I consider them a good 'compromise' switch with decent tactility and moderate noise levels. Good for a workplace board - I used one in the lab. Almost impossible to bottom out, too, with force levels not too far from a Model M.

Tiny thing I miss at my 5000: the little gnupsie on the F and J key.
The 3000 has them.

The 5000 should have deeper F and J keys instead of nubs, a classic Cherry thing. Actually they went back to that in G80s not too long ago. It merely takes getting used to.

Visually I prefer the dark gray inscription on the 3000 versus the deep black on the 5000.

Then your aesthetic preferences go in favor of the cheaper lettering technique. I need nice contrasty key labels, and while I'd consider a lasered G80-3000 like yours usable, I would always prefer dye sublimated labels or two-shot molded keys like your 5000 has. They work best under less-than-ideal lighting. Lasered labels still are very long-lived but the contrast achieved frequently is quite modest. Among the lasered boards here, my old BTC-made Packard Bell does best by far.

Low contrast is precisely what killed the KBPC PX for me. I liked the feel, key shape and layout, was less excited about cheap-feeling case plastics, but the lack of a clearly visible key structure plus somewhat faint lettering was something I didn't get along with very well. You can read my review for the details.

[itlnstln]

Ibu, is your 3000 white/grey?  I wonder if the white/grey keyboards have thinner caps, or something.  My G80s (both black) hardy wiggle at all.  The only thing I have heard of that might have less wiggle is a Topre.

[ibu]

Ibu, is your 3000 white/grey?

Yes, the keys in the main key field and the numbers in the tenkey field are white, other keys are gray.

[keyb_gr]

While newer Cherry lasered keycaps (ca. early 2002 onwards) are thinner indeed, I don't think even those will flex very much. If the OP is confident in his key removal technique (always pull straight up, which normally requires a special tool or two flat head screwdrivers at once) and has a caliper, I would certainly be interested in a few measurements of thickness. It was about 1.6 mm for 1996 vintage caps and little more than half that (about .9 mm) for more recent ones, IIRC.

[itlnstln]

The old keycaps must have been pretty thick.  My newer Cherrys have noticably thicker keycaps than my Filco and are pretty thick, in general.  I do notice that I can wiggle the keys a little more.  I think this due to the taller keycaps adding leverage and total distance of wiggle as someone mentioned earlier.

[ibu]

If the OP is confident in his key removal technique (always pull straight up, which normally requires a special tool or two flat head screwdrivers at once) and has a caliper, I would certainly be interested in a few measurements of thickness.

I have a calliper.
Do you like to know the thickness of the cherry 5000 or of the 3000.
The keys in the middle of the 5000 could be removed easily.
For the 3000 I would enjoy some further hints, to avoid any damage.
A special tool I do not own.

Do you think two loops of wire are appropriate?

That special tool you talk about: where can I get in Germany, or, even better, in Berlin, please?

[itlnstln]

Before I got my keypuller, I just used paperclips.  I bent them so they had hooks at either end, and pulled the key straight up.  Just be careful with large keys, though.  A couple of times, I pulled the stabilizer right off the PCB.  You can put it back on, but it can be a pain in the ass sometimes.

[ibu]

Thickness of a key cap (N) of my
5000: 1,6mm
3000: 0,7mm

[keyb_gr]

I have a calliper.
Do you like to know the thickness of the cherry 5000 or of the 3000.
The keys in the middle of the 5000 could be removed easily.
For the 3000 I would enjoy some further hints, to avoid any damage.

The easiest way is just popping the case open and then pulling Esc or somesuch.
In order to open the case, you unhook the latches at the top of the back (easily done by hand), pull away the upper case part, reach inside to make sure the circuit board comes loose from the upper part (push it in), and then just wiggle carefully until the top case comes off entirely.
Getting it back together is a bit harder but mainly involves a bit of patience, since all the parts have to fit well. First the top case needs to be hooked in at the front, if done correctly it will go down easily. Mind the cable, hook the PCB back in, and for the latches best work your way from right to left.

The 3000 is more interesting since it is from sort of a transitional period. I already have measurements for 1996, 1993 and 1989 boards.

A special tool I do not own.

Do you think two loops of wire are appropriate?

That should be plenty. An IC removal tool also seems to work well (they should stock these in well-sorted stores for electronic components).

EDIT: OK, so that would date the thinner keycaps to late 2001. Maybe all the Czech-made boards have them?

Incidentally, I think the only more or less direct upgrade from a Siemens board would be the $pendy option - Topre.