First post... Have a Model M, want to try Cherrys

[SLM]

Hi!  I've been reading this board for quite some time and actually enjoy it.  Stay on topic, what's that?  Lol!

First some background:

I "liberated" a '88 or '89 (gray/black logo) IBM Model M from work.  It's been sitting under a counter since I started here almost 14 years ago.  This forum reminded me it was here and not being used.  The keys were pretty grungy and the space bar was broke but the keys cleaned up in our ultrasonic cleaner and less than $15.00 bucks and clickykeyboards.com hooked me up with a couple new space bars.  A couple things I love about the board are the weight (it just sits there) and fact there's no Windows key to get in the way when I game on it.

I'm so left handed I breath left handed and use the arrow keys with my right hand to move in games and map other close keys like the Control, Shift, Alt, 0/Insert, ./Del for other actions while I mouse with my left hand.  Inevitably I hit the Windows key during feverish battles and get kicked back to the desktop.  No Windows key on the M eliminates that!  Yay!!

It does have a problem with the right arrow sticking sometimes though.  Push down, click, release...  Hey... I'm still moving...  Aargh!  Hit key again, stop.

Reading this forum I was thinking about ordering a Filco from Elite Keyboards with Cherry brown switches at first (but now I think I want blues) to try but I just can't stomach the price just to try it, and it has the Windows key.

My question is...  Is there another board that has the brown switches and does not have a Windows key?  Or another good switch board without it?  I run through a KVM so I need a PS/2 interface or USB with a working adapter.

Thanks!    :smile:

[ch_123]

Cheap option: Get a Compaq MX11800 off eBay. Bit of a weird layout, but they have Cherry brown switches and no windows keys.

Expensive option: Get a Realforce 101. Unfortunately they aren't made any more, and I don't know where you'd find them (and they'd be expensive if you managed to find one). As far as I know, there are people who make keylocks for Topre keyboards, so that you can put them under the Windows keys, I'm not entirely sure where you get them though, and Realforce keyboards are very expensive. Great keyboards though.

[bitflipper]

I'm also lefty. I would suggest using the keypad for movement in games. That solves your Windows key issue and there are plenty of adjacent keys for things like jump, crouch, strafe, center view, etc. Give it a try for a couple of weeks.  Of course, ymmv.

And welcome to GeekHack!

The Lego pics and LOLcats should show up by page 3 or 4 of this thread.
:biggrin:

[SLM]

Cheap option: Get a Compaq MX11800 off eBay. Bit of a weird layout, but they have Cherry brown switches and no windows keys.

Expensive option: Get a Realforce 101. Unfortunately they aren't made any more, and I don't know where you'd find them (and they'd be expensive if you managed to find one). As far as I know, there are people who make keylocks for Topre keyboards, so that you can put them under the Windows keys, I'm not entirely sure where you get them though, and Realforce keyboards are very expensive. Great keyboards though.

I've looked at the MX11800's on eBay a few times to tell you the truth.  There's only one listed right now that I can find and it doesn't have the track ball on it but the description says it does.  Odd, but I'm sure no keyboard guru!  Isn't the Realforce a Topre board with rubber membrane capacitive switches?  I wonder how those would feel compared to the buckling springs in my "M".  I've kind of grown fond of it.

Oh btw, it's a 1988 board.  When I shake it sounds like it has some chunks of stuff rattling around inside of it (probably broken rivets?) but other than that it's in what seems to me is nice shape...  other than the sticking arrow key. :frown:

I'm also lefty. I would suggest using the keypad for movement in games. That solves your Windows key issue and there are plenty of adjacent keys for things like jump, crouch, strafe, center view, etc. Give it a try for a couple of weeks.  Of course, ymmv.

And welcome to GeekHack!

The Lego pics and LOLcats should show up by page 3 or 4 of this thread.
:biggrin:

Hi and thanks for the welcome! I lurked around here for a couple months before I even decided to register and then spent another month and a half or so lurking some more!

I'm a hardware freak from back when the PII 233 MHz CPU with MMX was a blistering fast CPU, lol.  

I've tried using the whole number pad in games but I didn't like it.  Maybe I just didn't give it enough time to really get used to it.  I started on Half Life when the default controls were the arrow keys and just got used to it.  Maybe I should give using the keypad another go and see what happens.

Back in September or October I started on kind of a quest for a new board.  When it came to keyboards I've just used what was at hand.  Then I decided I wanted a new, decent quality board.  It seemed like everything marketed as a "gaming" board had lights, USB hubs, media keys, etc.  I just want a good quality USB to PS/2 (might be nice if I ever get a USB KVM or straight PS/2 board without all the "extras".  A search on the Anandtech forums led me here and I've been reading ever since!

[itlnstln]

All MX18000s have a trackball.  That's one of the main reasons we use it as a trial 'board around here.  The layout is also a little goofy, so between that and the trackball, it's a little difficult to use as a regular 'board.  These were designed to go in racks, though.

[SLM]

All MX18000s have a trackball.  That's one of the main reasons we use it as a trial 'board around here.  The layout is also a little goofy, so between that and the trackball, it's a little difficult to use as a regular 'board.  These were designed to go in racks, though.

Thanks.  All the ones I had seen had the ball on them until I found the auction today.  Just looked the seller took the pictures down about 45 minutes ago.  Guess they had the wrong ones up.

[SLM]

I know ripster has a rule about this, but

All models of P2 had MMX, didn't they?

Lol, welcome.

Thanks for the welcome!

Actually the first P2's were the 233 and 266 on the Klamath (SP?) core.  Mine was a slot 1 CPU.  And yes, AFAIK, MMX started with the P2 line.

[ch_123]

IIsn't the Realforce a Topre board with rubber membrane capacitive switches?  I wonder how those would feel compared to the buckling springs in my "M".  I've kind of grown fond of it.

The problem with the Model M is that they're kinda in their own league. If you like them, you buy more of the. White/Blue Complicated Alps are somewhat similar, but not necessarily as good (Blue ones compensate by being quite light, but they are very hard to find). The only thing I could recommend is a Model F which is superior to the Model M, but is only available in a crazy layout.

As for Topres, yeah, they're absolutely nothing like the Model M being light, quiet and relatively subtle, but very good nonetheless. Some compare them to rubber dome keyboards, but they're not really like them at all... They're like... Topres?

It should be noted that Cherry Browns are not like Model Ms either, and are closer to the Topres (although most who have tried both consider the Topre superior) You might like the Blue Cherrys, but they are also quite different to the buckling spring. Also, have fun trying to find one without windows keys.

[microsoft windows]

The only thing I could recommend is a Model F which is superior to the Model M, but is only available in a crazy layout.

You can actually get Model F's in a layout quite similar to the 101-key layout for cheaper than the 84-keys. All they take is a little cable modification to work on a PC.

And, if you're a gamer, you'll enjoy all three rows of function keys.



Only problem with these is they're huge and heavy.

[ch_123]

Yep, cable. Then the drivers. And I'm not still not entirely clear on whether even  that is sufficient.

Wish it was though. Want to make myself a proper US layout on one of those someday.

[overdriver]

A couple things I love about the board are the weight (it just sits there) and fact there's no Windows key to get in the way when I game on it.

I'm so left handed I breath left handed and use the arrow keys with my right hand to move in games and map other close keys like the Control, Shift, Alt, 0/Insert, ./Del for other actions while I mouse with my left hand.  Inevitably I hit the Windows key during feverish battles and get kicked back to the desktop.  No Windows key on the M eliminates that!  Yay!!

It does have a problem with the right arrow sticking sometimes though.  Push down, click, release...  Hey... I'm still moving...  Aargh!  Hit key again, stop.

I hate windows key during game too. Join the club You know that there is a software to kill Windows key completely(from windows registry).. right?  and some games are smart enough to offer its own option to kill windows key during the game mode.
and *some* gaming keyboard even offers same options to kill windows key during game but the most of them are rubber-dome switch so.. never mind.. just telling you there is such keyboard.

and about sticking right arrow key: have you try to pull out keycap and try to see what caused it? It could be bent spring or some debris that blocks its slider movement. or sometimes, wrong spring position causes it: in that case all you have to do is - put it back.

Good luck

[ch_123]

Erm,
Cable, drivers, !REMAP YOUR KEYS!
Then you're good to go, but you won't have typematic repeat (though either pseudolobster or sethstorm, I forget which, says they found a way around that)

That's my point, it's a case of "Works, with strings attached". More of a modder's choice than a regular all-purpose keyboard.

I also have something of a dislike of software dependence for things like keyboards... Makes it somewhat useless outside of environments you don't have the keyboard set up properly in.

[SLM]

Cool, thanks!  I wouldn't mind trying the Topre's but I'm no where near enough of a keyboad-er to spend the money on one.  Most if not all of my typing is forums and e-mail.  

I was reading a thread on here where someone went to Japan (I think) and posted a picture from inside a keyboard store.  Man it would be cool to have something like that here!

Also, have fun trying to find one without windows keys.

Yea, I was kinda thinking any newish board would have the Winders keys but if there was one without it, this would be the place to ask!

I thought about ordering an iOne Scorpius M10 for $60.00 bucks to try the blue switches until I read about the build quality.  Maybe some other blue switch board to check out?

I guess I'm going to have to take this one apart some time.  I removed the offending stem a couple times and tried blowing it out with canned air to no avail, the spring looks right to me, guess maybe it's an internal problem.

[ch_123]

I had a similar issue with my Model F. A complete disassembly fixed it, however, completely disassembling a Model M is nowhere near as trivial, look up some of the rivet replacement threads to see what's involved.

The thing about Topres is that you end thinking "I won't bother with those" because they are so expensive, but then you go off and buy a stack of other keyboards which in total cost you more than the Topre, and are not quite as good. I got one off eBay at Christmas for $150 plus shipping to Europe, and now that I have it, I'm seriously tempted to sell off my Filco as a consequence.

A Cherry keyboard is a good intermediate step between a Model M and a Topre, so if you like them, you might want to consider the Topre again with more confidence.

[Hak Foo]

I thought about ordering an iOne Scorpius M10 for $60.00 bucks to try the blue switches until I read about the build quality.  Maybe some other blue switch board to check out?
.

Get a G80-3000LSCRC.  About $65, when you can get them, known durability, parts-swaps with other Cherry boards if you want double-shot or white or re-legendable keys.

[meltie]

Hi SLM,

coming from Model M myself (first keyboard I really used, we had them at work), I would also suggest to try blue Cherry switches first. Even though the blues are totally different than Buckling Spring, I never met anybody who likes Buckling Spring and doesn't like the blues. While I also like the browns, I miss the click :-)

Just ordered my first Topre, but it takes a while to ship from Elitekeyboards to Germany, so I can't say anything about these in comparison yet.

Like Hak Foo I would suggest you get a Cherry G80-3000 with blues, since they are affordable and have IMHO a good quality. If you don't mind going with a used unit, you might find one on ebay without windows keys. Go for HSMUS (superior double shot keycaps) or LSMUS.

Bye,

meltie

[SLM]

Thanks for the recommendations all.  I appreciate it!!

Is there a chart somewhere that shows what all the letters (LSCRC, HSMUS) mean?  About all I've been able to figure out is the "L" is for laser inscribed keys.  Thanks!

[itlnstln]

There's one somewhere. You might want to check the Wiki. I am pretty sure it made it there. If not, it should be. The original poster was tim4wmail, IIRC. He posted what the US office told him they meant. It still might not be right, but it's closer than anythign (<- that's not bad typing, that's a keyboard transposition error) we've been able to figure out.

[meltie]

Or you go here directly:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Dating+Cherry+keyboards

[ch_123]

There's one somewhere. You might want to check the Wiki. I am pretty sure it made it there. If not, it should be. The original poster was tim4wmail, IIRC. He posted what the US office told him they meant. It still might not be right, but it's closer than anythign (<- that's not bad typing, that's a keyboard transposition error) we've been able to figure out.

Except for the "Cherry dating guide" which was actually correct.

Yeah, apparently their serial code system is so confusing that not even they understand it.

[SLM]

Thanks for all the help!  I've read so much on here I've lost track of what it all was.  I thought I'd run into the explanation of the lettering code but for the life of me I couldn't remember where.  --slaps head--

[bigpook]

something like this?

      
            CLICKY                           SILENT
LIGHT   blue cherry                  brown cherry,topre
HARD   BS, Fukka, White ALPS   black alps(?)

[bigpook]

something like this?

[bigpook]

please do : ) I would like to see that.

[ricercar]

Yeah but I was going to be obnoxious and start mapping personality types on top of it.

Gengis Khan, Nicholo Machiavelli, Lucretia Borgia, Webwit?

(runs fast and far)

[InSanCen]

Gengis Khan, Nicholo Machiavelli, Lucretia Borgia, Webwit?

(runs fast and far)

Genuine LOL!

[low-fi]

If one is used to buckling spring keyboards, the worst choice would be to go for the brown Cherries. Compared to buckling springs, the browns are ultra light, have almost zero tactile feedback and the only noise you hear comes from bottoming out the keys. On the other hand, the Blues are mighty fine. They're not _quite_ like the Buckling Springs, but similar enough so that you should be able to type on them without an effort. I think the Blues are a little better than buckling springs -- the tactility is definitely there, but they are a bit lighter and not as noisy. I haven't found their high-pitched "chirpy/sandy" sound to be annoying.

My first mechanical 'board was the Model M and I when I got my G80-3000 with blues I immediately liked it. On the other hand, I've had a Filco with brown cherries for a few months and still haven't got used to it. Actually I find it to be extremely annoying: it always feels a bit too unreliable to type on because the damn switches are so light and wimpy. It's OK for gaming but very ankward for heavy typing.

[microsoft windows]

If you like buckling springs, stick with an IBM/Unicomp. They're the only keyboards that feel that way.

[low-fi]

If you love buckling springs, it doesn't mean you'll dislike all the others. What I meant was the browns are so different from buckling springs it's unlikely you'll like them right away, if ever.

[ch_123]

If you like buckling springs, stick with an IBM/Unicomp..

And pray tell, however would you find out if there's something out there that you would like better?

[ch_123]

Where do you actually get those things anyway?

[SLM]

By the way, you can lock out a Windows...

Or just yank it off and leave it off.  Been there, done that, didn't like the way it made the board look, hahah.

[SLM]

Well, I tried to order a G80-3000.  I called four or five places that had them listed on line and no one had them.  One place told me two weeks or less and they'd have them so I went ahead and back ordered one.  The next day I got an e-mail saying it would be closer to two months because there is a switch manufacturing problem.  Hum...

[itlnstln]

Switch Manufacturing problem?
 
Maybe Cherry Corp has decided to obsolete their old MX line. I have a full stock so it doesn't matter to me now.

Well, now that they were bought out, I wouldn't be too suprised if this were to happen.  Ms. Keyboard said yesterday, too, that it seemed as Cherry wanted to get out of the US market all together.  This might be a start of something bad.
 
Uh oh, speculation and deductive reasoning is starting to rear its ugly head again.

[itlnstln]

This is all highly illogical.
 

[SLM]

Just to add to the conspiracy theory...  I just talked to another shop and was told Cherry is having manufacturing and distribution problems.  G80-3000's with blues will be four months minimum.

[Bruce]

I don't have any inside track from Cherry, but my guess is they are selling so many switches right now, the demand has taken them by surprise.
Switches being soldered into boards today were scheduled for production some time ago when the outlook was uncertain. This would knock-on to finished boards. Everything MX is pretty much made to order so there are no big stockpiles of keyboards to access.

As for the long term, who knows? ZF are a very conservative, cash rich company, they're not known as asset strippers or anything.

The story I was told is this:-
Their roots go back to Von Zeppelin - who had a business selling Zeppelins - that's the Z.
When Zeppelin died (or went bust - not sure) the local community took over the business as a 'not for profit' and ran it to keep their jobs and for the good of all. The area is Friedestein or something - that's the F.
They re-invested all their profits, got very big in Automotive and Aero, and hopefully, appreciate a good switch when they see one. I would also guess that a business unit not directly connected to Auto or Aero looks pretty on the portfolio these days.
I'm hoping we will be enjoying their products for many years to come. (Fingers Crossed).

[Mental Hobbit]

The area is Friedestein or something - that's the F.

Friedrichshafen. =)

Do you happen to know when Cherry became German? I read ZF fully took them over only in 2008, but afaik the Cherry headquarters have been in Germany for decades.

[Bruce]

Do you happen to know when Cherry became German?

No I dont, there is some anomoly there. Peter Cherry was American, It was his son who sold to ZF so it was always American owned - I think.
My (semi-educated) guess is that there was Cherry Corp and Cherry GmbH (and Cherry UK is a UK registered business). The Cherry family must have set it up this way and remained the major shareholder in all units.
Cherry GmbH were the ones who made keyboards, the other units being more Auto/Aero, each unit run independently. So if you want keyboards in the UK, and I assume USA, you gotta go for the Euros. This hasn't changed with ZF.

[Bruce]

He was in charge of the ones with the little light on top.

[SLM]

I wanted to update this...  Yesterday a Cherry G80-3000LSCRC was waiting for me when I got home.  I managed to find exactly one in stock at a price I was willing to pay (read ~$65.00 bucks delivered).  I've only been using it for a few hours today and really haven't done much too much typing on it but I'm kind of beginning to get the hang of it.  I went from a M$ ergo board with rubber domes to the IBM Model M and now this.  Picking up the M seemed easier than getting the hang of this board.  I took to the buckling springs like a duck to water (almost) but I'm really bad about bottoming these blues out.  I feel like I'm just hammering on the poor things.  I'm sure with time it will get better.  maybe I was beating on the buckling springs and just didn't know it........  

The key caps have both English and Chinese characters on them, which I saw in the Mechanical Switch Wiki.  It kind of makes the board look cluttered to me, if that makes sense.  I'm just not used to anything other than letters on my keys I guess.  Maybe I'll end up picking up some other cheap cap compatible board on eBay and swapping them out some time.  Anybody got a puller they wanna sell cheap? :biggrin1:

After I put some more time in on it I'll be in a better position to decide if I like it or love it but I do like it.  Just gotta get the hang of it.

[Hofy]

Thanks for the welcome!

Actually the first P2's were the 233 and 266 on the Klamath (SP?) core.  Mine was a slot 1 CPU.  And yes, AFAIK, MMX started with the P2 line.

Actually the first MMX processor was the pentium 166Mhz.  The 166 came in both MMX and non-MMX.  

My computer at work has a 166 with MMX.  :wink:



(Yes a GE  AC4400 loco is computer controlled with a P166MMX processor.)

[itlnstln]

Edit: wow, I just realized how OT this is in this thread,

yet, at the same time, how normal this is.
 
 
 
Sorry, I had to finish that thought for you.

[elbowglue]

OMG where was it in stock?? I'll paypal you $5 USD if you can help me get on in stock lol

[elbowglue]

I wanted to update this...  Yesterday a Cherry G80-3000LSCRC was waiting for me when I got home.  I managed to find exactly one in stock at a price I was willing to pay (read ~$65.00 bucks delivered).  I've only been using it for a few hours today and really haven't done much too much typing on it but I'm kind of beginning to get the hang of it.  I went from a M$ ergo board with rubber domes to the IBM Model M and now this.  Picking up the M seemed easier than getting the hang of this board.  I took to the buckling springs like a duck to water (almost) but I'm really bad about bottoming these blues out.  I feel like I'm just hammering on the poor things.  I'm sure with time it will get better.  maybe I was beating on the buckling springs and just didn't know it........  

The key caps have both English and Chinese characters on them, which I saw in the Mechanical Switch Wiki.  It kind of makes the board look cluttered to me, if that makes sense.  I'm just not used to anything other than letters on my keys I guess.  Maybe I'll end up picking up some other cheap cap compatible board on eBay and swapping them out some time.  Anybody got a puller they wanna sell cheap? :biggrin1:

After I put some more time in on it I'll be in a better position to decide if I like it or love it but I do like it.  Just gotta get the hang of it.

OMG where did you find it in stock??  I'll paypal you $5 if you help me find one in stock lol.