Brown cherries-- are there several varieties?

[djones]

As anyone who knows 67+ keyboards knows, the brown cherries on the MX11800 are not like brown cherries on the filcos-- the filcos seem a bit stiffer at both the initial pressdown and at the "bump-point".  And IIRC the kinesis ergo felt more like the filcos than the mx11800's cherries. Is this simply because of the age of the MX11800?  Or were brown cherries manufactured differently back then?

I ask because I've tried maybe a half-dozen brown cherries and the only one I've felt comfortable for an extended period of time is the mx11800's (which I now own 8 of). I'd like to find a smaller (tenkeyless) board with similar feel but cannot find one.

[itlnstln]

I think it has to do a lot with the keycaps and switch mounting.  Cherry-made 'boards have PCB-mounted switches and PBT or POM keycaps.  Filcos have plate-mounted switches and (probably) PVC caps.  The combination of all this changes the feel of the switch.  Personally, I find Cherry-made 'boards to be more tactile and a little lighter.  For the record, all of my Cherry brown 'boards were made in the last two years.

[sixty]

I have gone through a similar experience. Most people will tell you that it probably has to do with the difference between PCB and plate mounting. I generally prefer the PCB mounted ones too compared to the Filcos.

On the other hand there is also a rumor that the brown and black MX switches were slightly changed __somehow__ in the 90s. There are a few Korean posts on kbdmania or otd discussing this. Personally I am not sure if this is true, but I also feel a difference between old and new Cherry blacks.

I believe Sandy also has a picture comparing two slightly different brown MX stems. One looks like Caramel and one like chocolate. Confusing, confusing! But nowhere near as confusing as ALPS business.

[itlnstln]

I think that's just part evolution.  They might use a slightly different plastic composition now than back then, maybe they use a little more dye, etc.  That kind of stuff happens.  I don't think they fundamentally changed the switch, though.  XsPhat had talked to a rep from Cherry one time, and they had told him that that the switches they used for the Cherry-made 'boards were made in a different factory than the switches that are sold to third parties (like Filco).  That's probably a bunch of crap, though.  It doesn't really make any sense.
 
I will say this, though.  The Cherry browns in my Filcos feel almost linear compared to the SPOS Cherry 'board sitting right next to it.

[sixty]

I will say this, though.  The Cherry browns in my Filcos feel almost linear compared to the SPOS Cherry 'board sitting right next to it.

Exactly!

[spolia optima]

Though i don't have any conclusive evidence, I'd say that yes, there are two slight different varietiers of the brown cherry

1. the light brown- This is (I think) the version that cherry sells to other manufacturers. Sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference, but i'd say that they're a tad less tactile.

1. the dark brown - I see them in cherry-made boards. They've a bit stronger tactile curve and imho they feel a bit smoother.

Realistically, they're probably use the same exact tooling, but one is made with different materials... hmmm

It might be a generation thing too. We should do some investigating with various brown switches from the last 20 years. This subject is of great interest to me.


edit: After reading the previous posts, I see that I've added nothing new. Basically, I agree with sixty and italian.
Sandy (or perhaps one of the other Oriental Keyboard Aficionados?) made a comparison somewhere, and I may have it bookmarked.

[spolia optima]

I'd also like to add that I'm a big fan of the "tea axis" name. It sounds a lot more attractive and inviting than "brown cherry".

[itlnstln]

Though i don't have any conclusive evidence, I'd say that yes, there are two slight different varietiers of the brown cherry
 
1. the light brown- This is (I think) the version that cherry sells to other manufacturers. Sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference, but i'd say that they're a tad less tactile.
 
1. the dark brown - I see them in cherry-made boards. They've a bit stronger tactile curve and imho they feel a bit smoother.
 
Realistically, they're probably use the same exact tooling, but one is made with different materials... hmmm
 
It might be a generation thing too. We should do some investigating with various brown switches from the last 20 years. This subject is of great interest to me.
 
 
edit: After reading the previous posts, I see that I've added nothing new. Basically, I agree with sixty and italian.
Sandy (or perhaps one of the other Oriental Keyboard Aficionados?) made a comparison somewhere, and I may have it bookmarked.

For the record, there is no difference in color of the stem between my Filco and the Cherry SPOS.  As far as color of the stem goes, I am leaning to simple evolution of the switch through slight changes in materials and dye amounts/materials.

[itlnstln]

Perhaps ripster would be kind enough to take a picture of the keystems from his SPOS and one he got from DataCal (it would be better if he had one from a Filco, but no need to tear apart one just for this) to see if there is any difference in molding. I suspect not, though. I would imagine the mounting and keycap materials provide all the difference in feel.

[spolia optima]

For the record, there is no difference in color of the stem between my Filco and the Cherry SPOS.  As far as color of the stem goes, I am leaning to simple evolution of the switch through slight changes in materials and dye amounts/materials.

But there is a difference in feeling, you say?
My ignorance of Cherry's manufacturing history is almost 100%. All I know about the company is that they make a variety of keyswitches, and that their logo is super cute.

That said, I realize that the tea switches in my Compaq 11800 are noticeably lighter (in color) than in my G86 SPOS. Since both boards are made by Cherry, the difference probably lies in the generation/factory/production run- rather than separate switches for OEM/3rd party.

One might say that the tea axis debate is ad nauseam around here. There are also n00bz like me, who haven't heard enough of this discussion and must be educated! It would be nice to sit down and interview someone with the company- a frank discussion about the MX. Just the facts, ma'am.

[ch_123]

Though i don't have any conclusive evidence, I'd say that yes, there are two slight different varietiers of the brown cherry

1. the light brown- This is (I think) the version that cherry sells to other manufacturers. Sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference, but i'd say that they're a tad less tactile.

1. the dark brown - I see them in cherry-made boards. They've a bit stronger tactile curve and imho they feel a bit smoother.

Realistically, they're probably use the same exact tooling, but one is made with different materials... hmmm

It might be a generation thing too. We should do some investigating with various brown switches from the last 20 years. This subject is of great interest to me.


edit: After reading the previous posts, I see that I've added nothing new. Basically, I agree with sixty and italian.
Sandy (or perhaps one of the other Oriental Keyboard Aficionados?) made a comparison somewhere, and I may have it bookmarked.

I was about to point this out. Back in Geekhack's early days, xsphat made a thread about a conversation he had with a Cherry employee who told him that Cherry used different switches compared with the ones that they sold to other people. I don't think he found out the specifics though.

[hyperlinked]

Tea stems? Looks more like coffee nubs or choco-pluses to me.

I don't know if this means that the mounting plays a big role in how a switch feels, but I've noticed that my Choco-Plus Filco feels and sounds different after I switched keyboard trays. I just replaced my old keyboard tray with something much sturdier. I was expecting the keyboard to feel a little different since it'd be more stable, but I was surprised at how it actually sounds different now.

[majestouch]

The color of Cherry stems varies quite a bit from lot to lot, regardless of who they're making them for. The level of quality control required to keep the dye consistent between lots is apparently not of concern to Cherry. Any perceived differences in Cherry switches of the same model could be due to all sorts of variables mentioned by other folks here, but the color hasn't anything to do with it as far as I'm aware.

[SCTony]

[hyperlinked]

Two Filco keys.  If you can't detect a difference your monitor is crap.

I see a difference. They misspelled Esc on the one on the left.

[ricercar]

I was feeling inadequate until SCTony posted his pic. Inadequacy is a double whammy when it's instigated by ripster.

[Mental Hobbit]

I'd rather spread rumors.  I think the BEST Cherry Browns are sold to the Germans.  Just like the Germans like to steal the best beach spots at International Resorts.  This is why they will never sell Cherry Reds to Americans.

Rubbish.

Browns are sold exclusively to those wimps overseas. Germans get clears instead. Experience gained in the daily fight with stiff keyboard switch resistance gives Germans that decisive edge in brawls over the best beach spots at international resorts.


German, US vacationer discussing beach towel placement.

[HaaTa]

The big guy there needs to slow down on the twinkies.

[djones]

So, what I've learned from this thread is:
1) The switches are the same, but their mounting is different.
  a) The different in color is natural variance in the manufacturing process.
  b) No it isn't, legos!
  c) Your monitor sucks.
2) Their mounting are the same, but the switches are slightly different
  a) And the better ones are sold to germans (never mind which one is 'better')
  b) No they aren't.
  c) Yes they are.

I am so glad we settled all this once and for all.:party:

I see a difference. They misspelled Esc on the one on the left.

rofl

[meltie]

@MentalHobbit: You are absolutely right. THAT is the true conspiracy. I have to IMPORT a Filco from the U.S. to Germany to get a board with brown switches A GERMAN COMPANY PRODUCES. That is, in addition to my Compaq MX11802 that I bought on ebay Germany. I will compare them as soon as the Filco arrives, to see if I agree on the theory of switch deviance.

[itlnstln]

@MentalHobbit: You are absolutely right. THAT is the true conspiracy. I have to IMPORT a Filco from the U.S. to Germany to get a board with brown switches A GERMAN COMPANY PRODUCES. That is, in addition to my Compaq MX11802 that I bought on ebay Germany. I will compare them as soon as the Filco arrives, to see if I agree on the theory of switch deviance.

You couldn't get a Filco from The Keyboard Company in the UK?  It's still not Germany, but at least they're in Europe.

[ch_123]

@MentalHobbit: You are absolutely right. THAT is the true conspiracy. I have to IMPORT a Filco from the U.S. to Germany to get a board with brown switches A GERMAN COMPANY PRODUCES.

Buy a Cherry-made keyboard instead?

[itlnstln]

I guess that's real point.  It's not the switch, specifically, you're buying, it's the keyboard.  The keyboard is made in Taiwan even though the switch is made in Germany.  Hell, even with Cherry-made 'boards, there's no guarantee that it'll be made in Germany.  I have one made in the Czech Republic and one made in the US.

[Mental Hobbit]

You couldn't get a Filco from The Keyboard Company in the UK?  It's still not Germany, but at least they're in Europe.

After shipping, taxes, fees and whatnot, it's about the same (obscene) price. But Elite has them in stock most of the time, Keyboardco doesn't.

I'm in the same boat as Meltie, been waiting for a Filco with browns for weeks. Apparently USPS' carrier pidgeons could use some workout on blacks.

Buy a Cherry-made keyboard instead?

You can't get ANY board with browns in Germany, probably all Europe even. Cherry boards here have blues, blacks or clears.

[timw4mail]

You can't get ANY board with browns in Germany, probably all Europe even. Cherry boards here have blues, blacks or clears.

It's nearly impossible to find keyboards with Cherry clears in the US, so there seems to be some region-specific switches. (Excepting the Deck, of course).

[Mental Hobbit]

Obviously they feel supersoft browns are only suitable for those degenerated wimps in the U.S. and Japan, while Europeans can deal with some resistance.

German geekhackers should gang together and raid the Cherry factory!

[lowpoly]

MX11800 vs. current Filcos is a difference of several years. Tooling for the switches might have been replaced somewhen. Like new injection molds and new spring fabrication. Cherry is constantly working on cutting costs. Also, the tolerances in the switch specificationes are rather high.

[itlnstln]

In the disc golf world, as molds for discs break, wear out, etc. and those molds are replaced, discs of the same type will fly slightly differently due to the slight variations in replacement molds (or even different plastic mixes).  I think this might be the case with Cherry (and pretty much anything made out of molded plastic).  Even though the design is essentially the same, slight variations in additional/replacement molds or the blend of plastic that they use, while undectable to the eye, could make a detectable difference in feel or sound.  I don't think they actively make different switches, but I do think there might be slight variances in switches made at different times.

[meltie]

Actually, Elitekeyboards is even cheaper, especially since I also wanted to buy a HHKB Pro 2, a Fukka and some accessories.

I even mailed Cherry about purchasing a board with browns in Germany, they referred me to their distributor keybo.de. I contacted keybo, and they told me all I could get was clears.

Also waiting for a black US-layout USB G80-3000 with blues to be available in Germany, though. I think the way they make products available in one market and hardly obtainable in the other is irrational.

[itlnstln]

Faulty logic runs rampant here.

Not to say that I'm not personally guilty of it, but this is exactly the problem.  Logic and business don't mix.  I see it everyday.

[msiegel]

eBay seller says keyboard clicks.

K: "is it loud?"
Seller: "oh no, it's nearly silent."

[watduzhkstand4]

Conspiracy!

Show Image

Note that every single Lego I own is precisely color matched.  For Majestouch to be correct that implies the Danish are more precise than Germans.  This we know is not true.  Therefore the Germans vary the color only for their best Cherry keys.  Which they reserve for themselves the greedy bastards.

the first thing I thought of was the Boomer from L4D

[itlnstln]

I can't decide if the guy on the beach is him:
 

 
or him:
 

 
Either way, all of these guys are about to give birth to triplets.

[itlnstln]

He doesn't count; he doesn't have a beer gut.

[itlnstln]

So.... using DEDUCTIVE reasoning the colors are different but I can't see anything that could be causing the switch to feel any different.

You had better look at the tactile bumps on the stems again.  I can see a difference that is almost as obvious as the color that would explain why the Cherry-made 'board is more tactile.

[didjamatic]

Those 2 came from completely different molds.  Check the notch on the stems, one is on top, one on bottom.  Also the the dark brown (Cherry board) stems are much sharper on the edges.

Those springs are slightly different.

[didjamatic]

Your Filco right arrow key should have less than 1% of it's useful life gone, so I think the wear from use isn't the difference.  And you can see sharp edges on areas that will never have any wear such as where the key seats on the stem, that's a sharp edge on the Cherry board switch and a dull one on the Filco.

Maybe one batch was made during Oktoberfest.


OH and great find BTW Ripster, nice work!

[keyb_gr]

There IS a difference.  See it?

Show Image

It would seem Filcos use old stock then, as the upper one is what Cherry switch stems traditionally looked like. Apparently they had to redo the entire stem at some point - I wouldn't even be sure whether it still is the same material. The seams are much more obvious, too.

[didjamatic]

Well, there are at least 3 variations of Cherry browns.

The Filco with the notch on the top of the stem
The Cherry SPOS with the notch on the bottom of the stem
The Compaq MX11800 has no notch in the stem

[ch_123]

Oh dear god, this is worse than Alps...

Do you know what are simple? Buckling Springs.

[ch_123]

I mean in terms of construction. The subtle differences between the different part numbers is something of an arcane art, but the actual buckling spring mechanism itself has remained entirely unchanged since 1985.

[djones]

uuuh, am I the only one who thinks the springs look different?

[HaaTa]

uuuh, am I the only one who thinks the springs look different?

Dude, you gotta let me know what you're smoking. Its definitely working a lot better than anything I'm using .

[spolia optima]

Show Image

Is there any chance that the top stem is just well-used? This comparison reminds me of fjord that I once saw, then saw again 25,000 years later.

[elbowglue]

MX8100 board has notch at the bottom of the key, just like the G86 SPOS board.

[itlnstln]

Is there any chance that the top stem is just well-used? This comparison reminds me of fjord that I once saw, then saw again 25,000 years later.

No.  If you look closely, the structure is different.  The top edge of the tactile bump is shorter than the Filco switch.  Wearing down the bump is one thing, but the top edge wouldn't get longer, only shorter.  The dark brown switch is a little closer to the clears than the light brown switch.
 
 
Damnit!  I knew I was wasn't just imagining a difference between the Filco and the Cherry.

[itlnstln]

Show Image

 

Spoila, the differences I was speaking of are a little more obvious in this pic.

[sandy55]

12 windings - standard for Blues and Browns.

Don't know exact method counting windings.

few examples of springs of Blues on different boards )

[maxlugar]

MX8100 board has notch at the bottom of the key, just like the G86 SPOS board.

My board has many nothches - the head board on my bed that is!

I guess that explains why my bed springs are also quite worn.  

[itlnstln]

Keyboards are different. Switch is essentially the same within manufacturing tolerances.

Yeah, but those tolerances are enough to give one run of switches a noticably bigger tactile bump than another. Looking at the pics, it looks like they changed several things in the stem mold.  For one, they added/removed (depending on which one is newer) an extra "lip" at the top of the tactile part on the switch from the Cherry 'board.
 
BTW, thanks for taking those pics, ripster.