Mac (or platform-neutral) keyboard options

[jaybee]

So last weekend I decided to replace my crappy keyboard with a mechanical, having very fond memories of a Model M I used to use in the 1990s. I was delighted to find that they're still being made (Unicomp) and nearly bought one immediately, but found myself sucked into the vortex of fanatical keyboard research whose epicenter appears to be here at geekhack. Let me say that you guys are really twisted, albeit in a nice way.

At this point, I'm a content Mac user and while I'm aware that pretty much any keyboard will function, I'd like my ct.-opt-cmd keys labeled correctly and I really don't want a Windows logo staring up at me all day long.

I'm still trying to decide on which switch I'd most likely be happiest with. I don't play games on my computer, so I'm not concerned about N-key rollover. I've put together a list of options, and I'm hoping people here can tell me if I've overlooked something.

• Das, with a set of Mac keys at a rather steep $15 extra. The newer S model is no good, since you must sacrifice the opt or cmd key on the left due to the media keys (which I don't care about anyway). That leaves the original Pro, which could be OK if I go with blue switches.

• Unicomp, with a $10 set of Mac keys. Somewhat ugly by comparison, and perhaps too noisy. I am often taking notes while on the phone so I think the clacking might be a drawback. I personally think the best-looking color scheme is the black-on-black lettered Realforce keyboards, and it's occurred to me that a Unicomp with Mac keys, plus a keycap dye job could produce a very nice, similar result.

• DSI (or Fentek, which appear to be identical). The 'mini' models seem to have black switches, which I don't want. The 'modular' can be had from either company with browns, and seems to be the only brown-switch Mac-specific option.

• Matias Tactile Pro 3. Just released, and if the build quality is improved from the v2 model, it could be an option, although I think I'm more likely to decide on Cherry switches.

Another option is Filco otaku, trusting that I'd adapt to blank keys. I probably would, but it seems like a slight leap of faith. (It's somewhat annoying that there appear to be no extra Mac keys available for Filco, but I haven't found any.)

Finally, a RealForce in black might be acceptable since the key markings are so subtle, but I'm not inclined to spend that much on a keyboard without trying it, and I'm confident a $100-ish option would serve just as well if I can decide what to get.

As for switches, I'm leaning towards browns but having read that their tactile response is less than the blues, wonder if blues might be better for me on that basis (having liked my old M's tactile feel). Can someone with experience of all three (BS, blue, brown) offer an opinion on the difference in feel among them? How much tighter or softer do they feel in comparison?

Thanks very much in advance for any comments.

JB

[ch_123]

Blues are a pretty safe bet if you like the Model M. They're nice and snappy to type on, they're also light which makes typing on them rather effortless.

Browns are lighter still, and quieter, but some people often complain that the tactility is too subtle for them.

Topres are like souped-up rubber dome keyboards. I personally find to be a very pleasant switch to type on, perhaps only second to the the buckling springs. Some people don't get them, or think that they've been screwed over after coughing up $250+ for something that initially feels quite similar to their pre-mechanical board.

Buckling springs are always the old reliable. They're ugly and loud, but they work, and they don't have some of the problems with keycaps and bad controllers that people have to worry about with other keyboards.

[jaybee]

Blues are a pretty safe bet if you like the Model M. They're nice and snappy to type on, they're also light which makes typing on them rather effortless.

Browns are lighter still, and quieter, but some people often complain that the tactility is too subtle for them.

Thanks for the reply. The Unicomp is tempting but I work from home and often type while on conference calls and I worry it just might be a little too loud. That led me to the browns, but my concern is what you said: the tactility might be more subtle than I'd prefer.

The Topres are tempting, but not so much at $250 when there are options at half that price that I'll probably be very happy with.

I'm sure if I could get my hands on all the options, I could decide very quickly and might even splurge on a Topre if it were my favorite. As it is, I'm stuck trying to make my best guess.

[hyperlinked]

Thanks for the reply. The Unicomp is tempting but I work from home and often type while on conference calls and I worry it just might be a little too loud. That led me to the browns, but my concern is what you said: the tactility might be more subtle than I'd prefer.

If you're hoping that the Cherry Browns will allow you to be a stealth typist, it'll depend on the particular board that the switches are on. On a Filco, the Browns are not anything close to silent unless you type very gingerly.

[itlnstln]

If you're hoping that the Cherry Browns will allow you to be a stealth typist, it'll depend on the particular board that the switches are on. On a Filco, the Browns are not anything close to silent unless you type very gingerly.

My first Filco is pretty loud.  My newer one, though, is not as loud.  I don't know if it's just because I haven't gotten it broken in yet, or what.  In any case the Cherry G80-3000 with browns is still quieter.  The thin keycaps on the Filco give it a "tappy" kind of sound while the thicker, POM/PBT caps on the Cherry give it more a "thock" type sound.  You would just have to deal with a keyboard the size of a battleship.

[ch_123]

Topres aren't completely silent either, but they make a pleasant 'thocky' noise that isn't likely to cause much offense, even if you're typing very quickly.

[jaybee]

If you're hoping that the Cherry Browns will allow you to be a stealth typist, it'll depend on the particular board that the switches are on. On a Filco, the Browns are not anything close to silent unless you type very gingerly.

No, I don't require silence and moderate keyboard noise isn't a problem. It's just that I'm often on conference calls, and if it will sound as if I'm working from a tap-dancing studio, it could be distracting to people. I work from home and live alone, so otherwise the clatter wouldn't matter.

I've listened to some of the keyboard audio recordings, and found it a little funny to hear demonstrations of browns where it sounded like the keys were being hammered to the point where the bottoming-out clicks were so loud that it would hardly matter (sound-wise) which switches you had at all.

[itlnstln]

Cherry browns, blacks (not great for typing, though) and Topre keyboards are going to be your best bet. Cherry blues, BS and ALPS (of pretty much all varieties) are pretty loud. Even my Filcos are about as loud as the Dell rubber domes here in my office. The Cherry G80-3000 is quieter than the standard rubber dome 'boards we have here.

[jaybee]

Cherry browns, blacks (not great for typing, though) and Topre keyboards are going to be your best bet. Cherry blues, BS and ALPS (of pretty much all varieties) are pretty loud. Even my Filcos are about as loud as the Dell rubber domes here in my office. The Cherry G80-3000 is quieter than the standard rubber dome 'boards we have here.

That's sort of the conclusion I've come to: playing it safe with the browns, knowing that even light tactile will be a huge improvement on the cheap keyboards I've used lately. That leaves me with either the Modular Mac, or a blank Filco. The blacks aren't of any interest, and the Topres seem too pricey.

The Filco otaku is probably the better option, but I need to convince myself that I'll get used to blank keys. Also, get past the nagging idea that a blue-switch board won't be unacceptably loud after all, while providing a nicer tactile feel.

I've been all week trying to decide on this.

[itlnstln]

The blue switch creates a good racket. The click is high-pitched and plasticky, which I find particularly annoying unlike the lower-pitched Model M. When I tried one in my relatively quiet office, it was pretty loud. If you work in a loud office, it shouldn't be too bad, but if you're on conference calls (I do the same thing), I think you'll find them too loud.
 
Blank keys are pretty easy to get used to except for some things like special charaters (#, $, ^, etc.). I am a data analyst and write a lot of SQL. I found that blank keys slowed me down quite a bit when writing code due to the special characters. The other problem I had with blank keys at work was when I would work with someone at my desk. With blank keys, I found that I needed to be squared up with the keyboard and my hands on the home row. If someone was sitting at my desk, looking over my shoulder, etc., and I could not be square at my keyboard, it was very hard to type (and somewhat embarassing), especially since there is nothing to look at in lieu of good touch-typing form.

[ch_123]

and the Topres seem too pricey.

Depends really. They are definitely better built than most new keyboards around these days, and the switches offer good tactility - probably better than the browns by the sound of it (I have yet to use a keyboard with brown switches I should point out). Expensive, and of debatable value for money, but you get a very good keyboard indeed.

Here's what a Blue Cherry sounds like - link.

[Mental Hobbit]

Also, get past the nagging idea that a blue-switch board won't be unacceptably loud after all, while providing a nicer tactile feel.

Let me make this a bit more difficult for you:
I doubt the noise of blues is what anybody would call unacceptably loud. It's rather a very crisp chirping than a click. And the difference in tactile response between blues and browns is huge.

So last weekend I decided to replace my crappy keyboard with a mechanical, having very fond memories of a Model M I used to use in the 1990s.

That makes me doubt you'd be happy with Cherry browns. There's not the slightest hint of Model M feel in browns.

[ch_123]

I think you misread what he said - he liked the Model Ms...

[itlnstln]

Plus the Topres come in white. I thought that was de rigueur for Mac users?

White, maybe, but I think Apple users might be used to yellow.

[jaybee]

Plus the Topres come in white.  I thought that was de rigueur for Mac users?

Not for this Mac user. I use a Mac Mini tucked away, with a Samsung monitor, and I prefer the look of a black keyboard.

The Topre black ones would only be acceptable because the key lettering is so subtle. The Windows logo would be much too annoying on the white ones.

[jaybee]

The blue switch creates a good racket. The click is high-pitched and plasticky, which I find particularly annoying unlike the lower-pitched Model M. When I tried one in my relatively quiet office, it was pretty loud. If you work in a loud office, it shouldn't be too bad, but if you're on conference calls (I do the same thing), I think you'll find them too loud.
 
Blank keys are pretty easy to get used to except for some things like special charaters (#, $, ^, etc.). I am a data analyst and write a lot of SQL. I found that blank keys slowed me down quite a bit when writing code due to the special characters.

It's the special characters that concern me too. I'm a writer/editor and the main keys shouldn't be any problem, but when I need things like #%&*{}[] etc I still generally look at the keyboard. Then again, the Mac has a built-in keyboard viewer utility I could use as needed, hoping to wean myself off it entirely over time.

BTW, I now have one response saying the blues could be too loud, and one that says they probably won't be. At some point I'll just need to make my best guess and go for it.

[itlnstln]

It just depends on the relative noise in your environment.  I work in a quiet office, but if work in a noisy newsroom, there shouldn't be a problem with it.  I would also hit up the Keyboard Audio Clips forum for some sound samples to check it out.  Blues may not be too loud, per se, but some folks here, such as myself, find the high-pitch clicking quite annoying.

[jaybee]

I did check out the audio clips, here and elsewhere. I can see how the high-pitched metallic clicks of the blues could annoy or distract some people.

I don't have other people to worry about here, except when I'm on the phone.

[itlnstln]

Cherry blues are fine. ItlnStln is easily annoyed.

This is true, but it's well-balanced with the patience of a saint, though. It really pisses a lot of people off for some reason. I think it has had a lot to do with the success I have had in the workplace.
 
Yin and Yang.

[Mental Hobbit]

Let those people on the phone know you're a busy multitasker.

[jaybee]

Let those people on the phone know you're a busy multitasker.

Funny you should say that. Sometimes I tap on the keyboard a bit just so they know I'm paying attention (even sometimes when I'm really not).

[itlnstln]

Let those people on the phone know you're a busy multitasker.

Ha!  I like to take my laptop to big meetings, and surf the web while looking like I am taking notes.
 

[itlnstln]

Disk defrags. Shows you care.

Those are scheduled overnight daily (is that an oxmoron?).  Keeps things running in tip-top shape.

[ch_123]

I often wonder how the performance gains from daily defragging balance out against the wear on your hard drive's lifespan from the exertion.

[itlnstln]

I often wonder how the performance gains from daily defragging balance out against the wear on your hard drive's lifespan from the exertion.

I would rather have the performance gains. I back up stuff I really need on the network drive.
 
I don't really care, anyway. It's not my (personal) computer.  If it were, I would probably do weekly defrags.

[ch_123]

I dunno. I used to be big into that sort of stuff, but at the end of the day, it didn't make much difference. Windows is Windows and all that...

[ch_123]

And to think people would pay for stuff like that... I use JkDefrag every now and then.

[itlnstln]

The one built into Windows is just fine for me.

[jaybee]

This Windows defrag conversation is absolutely adorable. I remember when I used to have to do that with OS 9.

[jaybee]

So just as I think maybe I'll take the plunge on a Filco blank (otaku) board, I go discover that they're both out of stock. Naturally.

[ricercar]

I.
Go with a high-quality Cherry brown board, so that you can have the best board from the start, and thereafter regret only the keyboards you purchase later thinking you made a mistake with the Cherry browns.

Istslsnlnslnsl (or however he spells it) was correct that Cherry blues would be too loud for a normal person (e.g. anyone not ripster) who does significant business on the phone. Buckling spring, Cherry blues, and Alps whites are all too noisy, immediate dealbreakers as far as phone + typing scenarios. Caveat Lector: Take that with a grain of salt. I'm a Cherry brown fanboi. And Ripster loves Cherry blues; take his advice regarding blues with a grain of salt. Or a block of Lego.

II.
My other fanboi speech is the Kinesis Contour, but in my defense there's particular bonus round for your criteria with the Kinesis Advantage.

• Cherry brown, for tactile feedback PLUS you can turn on a hardware click (from a speaker) if you feel you need significant audio feedback. And turn it off while on the phone. After two years on a Contour, I found the electronic key click taught me not to bottom out on Cherry browns, even on other non-Kinesis boards. Nice.
• has Macintosh command and option key caps stock, at no extra charge. And the ALT key maps to option correctly, unlike Logitech key cap legends.
• Comes in fashionable black.

Linky

[itlnstln]

So just as I think maybe I'll take the plunge on a Filco blank (otaku) board, I go discover that they're both out of stock. Naturally.

You may just want to get the regular board and a set of blank keys.  That way, if you don't like the blanks, you can switch back.  That, and you could go hybrid, too and just make the letters blank.  You have more options for just $30 more.
 
You could also sell the lettered keys for $30, and get your money back.  There are several people here that would buy them from you in a heartbeat.

[itlnstln]

Istslsnlnslnsl (or however he spells it)

*Sigh*  It's I-T-L-N-S-T-L-N.  You just need to remember that "ItlnStln" = International Stalinists.
 
And for Mac fans.

[ricercar]

International Stalinists

Super mnemonic! Now my pattern-matching software will never forget.

[jaybee]

I.
Go with a high-quality Cherry brown board, so that you can have the best board from the start, and thereafter regret only the keyboards you purchase later thinking you made a mistake with the Cherry browns.

II.
My other fanboi speech is the Kinesis Contour...

Are there low-quality brown-based boards? Maybe so, but for my purposes it's narrowed pretty quickly to the DSI/Fentec Modular Mac or a blank Filco. I've read all the reviews I can find and can't determine whether there's much difference in build quality between them. Not much price difference either.

Don't think the Contour's for me, especially at $300. It's more of a leap of faith than blank keys. Plus, I also do graphic design work which requires a somewhat different use of the keyboard than touch-typing. I'm not sure the Contour will be as friendly when used that way (although I guess one might adapt to it).

[jaybee]

You may just want to get the regular board and a set of blank keys.  That way, if you don't like the blanks, you can switch back.  That, and you could go hybrid, too and just make the letters blank.  You have more options for just $30 more.

Interesting idea. I'd probably feel compelled to make a hybrid, if only so I'd feel like I wasn't spending $30 just to remove the two Windows keys (which is where I started with all this).

[ricercar]

Are there low-quality brown-based boards?

Maybe I should have typed, "reasonably priced" instead of high quality. My standards of quality include passing

• torsional tests that no one else seems to think are important.
• weight enough to stay put when I brush it with my jacket sleeve.

My recent Cherry brown POS fails both tests, despite retailing for over $500. For this board POS stands for Piece of **** instead of Point of Sale.

What you may want to read is that decent Cherry brown boards are available for under $100 new and under $30 on ebay, making another  $30 for key caps far more digestable.

[itlnstln]

I don't really think torsion tests are important, because who sits at their desk and twists keyboards all day?  The Cherry SPOS is a POS 'board that goes into a stand at a register that holds the keyboard in place as seen in the upper-left portion of the picture below.  It's not designed to sit on a desk for general typing use, thus, I think "piece of ****" is a bit harsh.
 

[Chao]

So just as I think maybe I'll take the plunge on a Filco blank (otaku) board, I go discover that they're both out of stock. Naturally.

I ran into the same problem today...

[hyperlinked]

I don't really think torsion tests are important, because who sits at their desk and twists keyboards all day?

Just be glad that GH keeps a lot of us off the streets:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6099&page=11#152

[jaybee]

OK, I'm back with an update.

I bought a DSI Modular Mac with Cherry brown switches, and I’ve used it for more than a week. (Bought via buy.com at a lower price than directly, plus free shipping, and if you e-mail DSI immediately after ordering, you can specify a choice of brown or blue switches.) Anyway, here are my impressions.

Initially, I didn’t care for the brown switches at all. I think I was expecting more tactile feedback, just without the audible ‘click’ of the blues. If I’d tried this keyboard in a store, it’s unlikely I’d have bought it. This might not be true for those of you who’ve used mechanicals for a while, but to my fingers the ‘bump’ in the downstroke is very subtle, barely even perceptible at first. I even pulled a key off to see if there were really brown switches underneath.

However, I figured I’d give myself time to adjust, and I have -- somewhat. I’m reacquiring a lighter touch when typing, bottoming out keys less and less, and like the board far more than I did initially. I’m still wondering if I might end up trying another board, though. (I swore I was going to research thoroughly and only buy one, but…)

The keyboard itself seems solid, but its front edge is higher than I’m used to and its front-to-back slope is subtle. At first it felt like a flat keyboard (parallel to the desktop) on a little raised platform. Legs to lift the back would help, but there are none. I’ve gotten used to it, but I might try a wrist rest (which I’ve never used before) just to compensate for the design.

I’ve had to adjust to its layout, but I suppose this is to be expected. Specifically, I hit the three media keys (volume up/down and mute) along the left edge, accidentally and often, intending to hit shift or tab.

It turns out I used the numeric keypad on my former keyboard more than I’d realized. I can buy one for the Modular Mac, but of course it’s an extra outlay and I'm undecided whether it’s worthwhile to me. If I keep this as my primary keyboard, I might.

Remarkably, the keyboard has no ‘delete’ key. There is however a key in the usual place that serves the same function, marked ‘delet’. DSI responded to my e-mail about this, saying the keys were misprinted and promising to send me a replacement when they’re available.

Overall, it’s clearly an upgrade over the cheap Macally it replaced, but I might end up trying another, with the likely options being a Filco (with blues), Das (original, not the S), the new Matias Tactile Touch (don’t like the design much), or a Realforce (less likely due to its cost).

Any comments are welcome about how those others would compare, now that I have a brown-key board for comparison.

[elbowglue]

Overall, it’s clearly an upgrade over the cheap Macally it replaced, but I might end up trying another, with the likely options being a Filco (with blues), Das (original, not the S), the new Matias Tactile Touch (don’t like the design much), or a Realforce (less likely due to its cost).

Any comments are welcome about how those others would compare, now that I have a brown-key board for comparison.

A few things - if you overshoot the left side of the keyboard often and are hitting the media buttons on accident, you can always disable the media keys or pull the keycaps off of the media buttons.

Is there a reason you are looking at the Das, not the Das S?  I understand that the Das S fixed a controller issue, whereas the Das Original transposes keystrokes which are done in rapid succession, therefore introduces typos, which in my opinion is a total no-no.  I would strongly advise against the Das Original, but the Das S seems like it would work fine.

Filco with blues I have, they are clicky, louder, more fun to type with especially when noise is no object.

I can't speak towards mac support however, although I am interested in mac support as my brother is a mac guy.

[itlnstln]

I think this is only the second member that has bought one of the DSI modulars.  XsPhat is the only other member I can think of. He bought his with blues.

[jaybee]

A few things - if you overshoot the left side of the keyboard often and are hitting the media buttons on accident, you can always disable the media keys or pull the keycaps off of the media buttons.

I'm adjusting to it and not hitting them as often now.

Is there a reason you are looking at the Das, not the Das S?  I understand that the Das S fixed a controller issue, whereas the Das Original transposes keystrokes which are done in rapid succession, therefore introduces typos, which in my opinion is a total no-no.  I would strongly advise against the Das Original, but the Das S seems like it would work fine.

When used on a Mac, the Das S reserves one of the left-side alt (option) or command keys to enable the media keys, or something like that. And it can't be switched off, so while you can choose which it is, you lose normal function of one or the other with a Mac. This for me eliminates the S from consideration. The original Pro has its own drawbacks, I understand. That would push me towards a Filco if I do decide on a blue-switch alternative board, but that means either using a Windows model or going blank.

DSI delet key?  That's pretty funny.  Could have been worse.  Could have said DeLeet.

At first I thought I'd gotten a French model that would have an 'entre' key or maybe 'merde' instead of 'esc' -- but no. It's just a misprint, they say. Somewhat embarrassing quality control, IMO, but at least it doesn't affect function. I'll report back on when they actually send a replacement key, assuming they do.

[itlnstln]

Oh yeah, I forgot about all that.  XsPhat did buy one of the first ones about a year or so ago, though, so I would imagine they would have worked out some of those issues since then (the "delet" key would indicate not, however).
 
Jaybee, what is the key printing like?  Are they double-shot, laser-etched, dye sub, or pad-printed?

[jaybee]

Jaybee, what is the key printing like?  Are they double-shot, laser-etched, dye sub, or pad-printed?

I'm not sure of the differences, but if you can tell me what to look for, I can try to find out and let you know.

[itlnstln]

I'm not sure of the differences, but if you can tell me what to look for, I can try to find out and let you know.

Check it.

[jaybee]

Check it.

If i run a fingernail across the top of a key, i can definitely feel that the lettering is raised. I guess they're pad-printed but I can't say for sure.

I might try scraping the 't' off my 'delet' key because I'll allegedly get a replacement for it anyway, and 'dele' would be a preferable misprint to 'delet' if the 't' comes off.

[itlnstln]

I might try scraping the 't' off my 'delet' key because I'll allegedly get a replacement for it anyway, and 'dele' would be a preferable misprint to 'delet' if the 't' comes off.

Hell, you might as well take it down to "Del."  At least that would be a correct abbreviation.

[microsoft windows]

That modular approach to a keyboard seems interesting. I can't help but remember the DSI keyboard where you could switch around the QWERTY pad, arrow keys and Home/End cluster, and the number-pad.

The site also brought up a statistic saying that the mechanical Cherry switches last about 50,000,000 cycles. This makes me wonder: How many cycles does a buckling spring key switch (IBM) tend to last? How about a rubber dome? I've seen plenty of rubber dome and buckling-spring keyboards that have withstood over 20 years of hard use and still work to this day.