Author Topic: RE: Lube  (Read 12354 times)

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Offline spolia optima

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RE: Lube
« on: Sat, 16 January 2010, 20:35:36 »
What's the concensus on lubing the innards of a particular switch?

I've tried a few things:

ALPS pink stems treated with isoropyl/wintergreen oil mix: success. Stems cleaned with the mixture feel a bit smoother than those cleaned with regular 70% isopropyl/water.

ALPS orange stems given a generous dab of radioshack "needle-tip precision lubricator". fail. even a small amount seems to muddy the feel, and larger amounts cause the switch to fail- due to the oil being non-conductive i imagine.

Cherry black sliders given a touch of powder graphite: success? It doesn't feel much different, although it didn't hurt anything. I fear that more/finer graphite may cause premature actuation.


The wintergreen oil/isopropyl treatment removed a lot of the friction from the ALPS sliders. It was subtle, but the keys no longer had the sandy/uneven feeling that these switches develop.

thoughts?
keyboards!

Offline ricercar

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RE: Lube
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 16 January 2010, 20:39:42 »
If you're switching from female to male, yes, you want lu....oh wait. Nevermind.
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Offline sixty

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RE: Lube
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 16 January 2010, 20:49:25 »
As always the Koreans are sadly years ahead of us regarding this!





Dedicated switch cleaning set!

Apparently it is based(?) on RO59, however they do not list any "tmkt" variant on their homepage.

Offline Oqsy

  • Posts: 861
RE: Lube
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 16 January 2010, 21:32:38 »
There's a place down the street that will give you $80 for each bottle of that stuff you give them as long as you sign a confidentiality form and a waiver to parental rights to any progeny created from the bottle.
[sigpic]Currently in use: Rosewill RK9000 and CH DT225[/sigpic]
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Offline didjamatic

  • Posts: 1352
RE: Lube
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 17 January 2010, 09:22:29 »
And you thought cleaning keyboards was hard now.  A board gummed up with switch lube would likely be a disaster.

Can you imagine what all of the great vintage boards would be like if people pumped them full of lube 20-30 years ago?

For example, you get a clean WANG and...  



Just say NO to keyboard lubrication!
« Last Edit: Sun, 17 January 2010, 09:24:58 by didjamatic »
IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Offline Mental Hobbit

  • Posts: 461
RE: Lube
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 17 January 2010, 09:48:21 »
I agree with didjamatic. Any fluid lube will probably catch a lot of dust too, so after a short time friction will be worse than before. Maybe graphite powder would work.
Typing on blues.

Offline bigpook

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RE: Lube
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 17 January 2010, 10:43:13 »
maybe, but there can be a long debate as to what the "right" switch is.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline Mental Hobbit

  • Posts: 461
RE: Lube
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 17 January 2010, 10:45:51 »
I know, I pencilled my mainboard. But it's not like we're going to fill the housing up to the edge. Could a few grains of graphite powder cause a short in any switch design?
Typing on blues.

Offline o2dazone

  • Posts: 953
RE: Lube
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 17 January 2010, 12:30:59 »
I used dry lube on my spacebar support on my Filco. It stopped the squeak for a while, but I eventually went with white lithium grease to quiet it. Haven't used it inside the keys though

Offline bsvP585hUO2Y6

  • Posts: 59
Re: Lube
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 17 January 2010, 14:32:38 »
o2dazone wrote on 5982 September 1993:

> I used dry lube on my spacebar support on my Filco. It stopped the
> squeak for a while, but I eventually went with white lithium grease to
> quiet it. Haven't used it inside the keys though

IMHO lubing stabilizers isn't in the same ballpark as lubing the
switches.  I listened to a squealing MX11800 spacebar for a couple of
weeks till I remembered that tube of silicon grease I bought years
ago...  A toothpick tip applied to the stabilizer joints was sufficient
to silence it.

I agree with didjamatic that lubing the switches is Evil.

Offline spolia optima

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RE: Lube
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 17 January 2010, 19:44:17 »
so it's just bad, huh?

oh well...
keyboards!

Offline spolia optima

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RE: Lube
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 17 January 2010, 20:10:18 »
I'd like to see someone design a keyswitch that takes advantage of a spring wrapped around a sealed, oil-filled shock absorber. just like a car! It's a ridiculously stupid idea, but it could be marvelous in practice!
keyboards!

Offline patrickgeekhack

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RE: Lube
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 18 January 2010, 20:49:56 »
Quote from: bsvP585hUO2Y6;151551

IMHO lubing stabilizers isn't in the same ballpark as lubing the
switches.  I listened to a squealing MX11800 spacebar for a couple of
weeks till I remembered that tube of silicon grease I bought years
ago...  A toothpick tip applied to the stabilizer joints was sufficient
to silence it.

I agree with didjamatic that lubing the switches is Evil.


I applied Lithium grease to silence the spacebar on my ABS M1. I do agree that lubing the switches is not a good idea. I applied silicone grease to my Customizer switches and the keys don't feel the same anymore. It's like the soul, what made the keyboard what it was, was not there anymore. I need to find some time to remove all the springs and remove all the silicone grease.

I have to agree with Ripster in saying that it's better to get the right switch. I have found the right keyboard for me in the Cherry MX Blue, the Topre and the Cherry MX Brown. I don't know why I even attempted to modify keyboards that I will probably never used anyway.

Offline kidchunks

  • Posts: 496
RE: Lube
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 04 December 2010, 15:11:27 »
Hmm glad this post resurfaced, having some noise coming from my my backspace key on my rosewill. May try some lithium grease.
Topre || BS > *
my root : kidchunks[dot]com

Offline kidchunks

  • Posts: 496
RE: Lube
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 04 December 2010, 15:46:28 »
Quote from: ripster;257076
See this Cherry MX Removal and Lubing Mod Post for those Rosewill stabilizers.


Thanks, missed the part about the grease when I was first checking out how to take out the bigger caps. I found it easier to take off the key then take off the white cap with a flat head.
Topre || BS > *
my root : kidchunks[dot]com

Offline ksd5

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RE: Lube
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 05:26:23 »
Quote from: spolia optima;151649
I'd like to see someone design a keyswitch that takes advantage of a spring wrapped around a sealed, oil-filled shock absorber. just like a car! It's a ridiculously stupid idea, but it could be marvelous in practice!


It seems like it'd be a very quiet keyboard with those switches.

Offline limmy

  • Posts: 352
RE: Lube
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 11:13:13 »
Quote from: ripster;529419
Updated Lube thread here:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22656-Gallons-of-Spooge-The-Official-Ripster-Lubricant-Experiment-Thread

I have the RO-59 now to test.

Ripster,

You might also want to try Krytox. It is popular choice of lube for Cherry switch among OTD guys. (They use GPL106)

I personally think lubing the Cherry switches is too much work for its return, but still think the lube itself is amazing. I applied some Krytox to sliders of my 5-year-old HHKB and it is considerably smoother than before. One advantage of Krytox over RO-59 is that I do not have to wait for the lube to set in(or cure). For that reason, RO-59 may be more durable because it goes through curing process. Published static friction coefficients are about 0.08 for both lubricants, so I guess their slickness are pretty much comparable.

So far, I have tried Krytox (GPL100/GPL105), KG8(dry lube, PTFE), Superlube(oil with PTFE/grease with PTFE), Silicone oil, Lithium grease(with/without PTFE), and molybdenum in order to restore smooth feeling of a new Topre. Among those I tried, thin coat of Lithium grease with PTFE and Krytox seems to be sucessful. Among the successful two, I prefer Krytox as it is more slick and is easier to apply. Dry lube works well in the beginning but its effect wears off quickly. Other grease and oil type were too sticky/sluggish to my taste.
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 February 2012, 12:17:08 by limmy »

Offline REVENGE

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RE: Lube
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 13:16:50 »
Relube.
◕ ‿ ◕

Offline sordna

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RE: Lube
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 14:13:57 »
Quote from: limmy;529453
Ripster,

You might also want to try Krytox. It is popular choice of lube for Cherry switch among OTD guys. (They use GPL106)

I personally think lubing the Cherry switches is too much work for its return, but still think the lube itself is amazing. I applied some Krytox to sliders of my 5-year-old HHKB and it is considerably smoother than before.


In my experience, almost any oil will make a switch much smoother, including WD-40 and the typical gun/penetrating oil. With the pretty loose tolerances in cherry switches, I doubt an ultra high performance and expensive oil like Krytox is worth it. What particular property of Krytox makes it better than the Deoxit or less fancy oils?
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline RiGS

  • Posts: 1594
RE: Lube
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 15:33:14 »
He said he tried super lube oil which is a synthetic oil with ptfe particles and he preferred the Krytox. Deoxit is expensive and it is filled with stuff to increase conductivity of metal parts(you don't need that for the plastic slider of Cherry or Topre).
Last edited by RiGS; Jan 2011

Offline RiGS

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RE: Lube
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 17:04:10 »
Quote from: limmy;529453


So far, I have tried Krytox (GPL100/GPL105)



Between the GPL-100 and 105 which one do you like better?  Does the GPL-100 leave a coating after evaporation? Do you find it durable?
Last edited by RiGS; Jan 2011

Offline limmy

  • Posts: 352
RE: Lube
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 17:14:39 »
Quote from: sordna;529624
In my experience, almost any oil will make a switch much smoother, including WD-40 and the typical gun/penetrating oil. With the pretty loose tolerances in cherry switches, I doubt an ultra high performance and expensive oil like Krytox is worth it. What particular property of Krytox makes it better than the Deoxit or less fancy oils?


I don't have much experience in lubing Cherry switches or with other oils. My primary goal was to restore the smooth feel of a new Topre switch because my 5-year-old HHKB was getting old and was not as smooth as before.

The oils I have tried are silicone and superlube oil both of which are pretty thick. Thick lubricants in general changes the feel of the keys because they tend to stick. The stickyness doesn't really matter if surface is small but in my case(HHKB sliders) the surface was pretty large and surface tension of the oils was significant enough to change the feel. I have two types of Krytox GPL100 and GPL105 and GPL105 is about the same viscosity as the other two oils. But GPL105 is far more slippery when I test the lubricants on my finger and moreover it doesn't seem to change the feel of the keys that much. I used silicone oil for my HHKB for a while and it seemed to work well in the beginning, but when I made a mistake of over applying the oil, it didn't feel as good and felt pretty sticky. Superlube oil was not compatible with rubber similar(
Ethylene-propylene-diene rubber or EPDM) to the one used in Topre switches(EPT) so I stopped using it as soon as I found out the information. compatability chart of superlube

By the way, silicone oil applied in Alps black switches were very successful. It took care of metal to plastic friction that caused problems. For this application, the surface where friction was problem is significantly smaller compared to sliders of HHKB.

There must be a cheaper alternative out there that doesn't cost as much as Krytox. But so far, I couldn't find any other oil that are plastic and rubber safe and the same time provide low friction. I heard some people have been succesful in using mineral oil, but I see mineral oil and EPDM rubber is not compatible so I think mineral oil is going to have adverse effect on the rubber in the long term use. (According to information published by a rubber company, EPDM and EPT are pretty much the same thing and EPDM is not recommended to be used with petroleum oils, mineral oil, or di-ester lubricants. source)

Offline sordna

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RE: Lube
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 17:23:45 »
People have reported good results with Deoxit F5 (contains both cleaner and lube) and F100 (lube only), which is designed for audiomixer faders and is safe for plastics. What I have tried is WD-40 as well as StrongArm multipurpose penetrating oil, and both of them smoothed out the cherry switches I tried them on, without any adding stickiness.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline limmy

  • Posts: 352
RE: Lube
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 17:26:52 »
Quote from: RiGS;529749
Between the GPL-100 and 105 which one do you like better?  Does the GPL-100 leave a coating after evaporation? Do you find it durable?

It is hard to say about durability of GPL100 since I have only used the lube for a week. GPL100 doesn't seem to evaporate quickly (I still see the lubricant in a fluid form after a week from application). If it lasts long time, I would certainly prefer GPL100 because of its low viscosity(low viscosity=low surface tension=less feel change). However, high viscosity of GPL105 doesn't seem to affect the feel as much as other high viscosity oils, so GPL105 could be a good compromise. I don't know what type of research OTD guys have done before choosing to use GPL106, but I believe they must have had good reason for their choice.

Also, as I mentioned in my other post Krytox may be more convenient (and possibly less durable) lubrication solution than RO-59 because it doesn't need curing process.

Edit: viscosity and surface tension doesn't seem to be correlated in general See link In case of Krytox, GPL105 and GPL100 the viscosity difference is huge, but difference in feel was hard to discern. When painted on a surface, both Krytox do not cling on the surface very well, i.e. there are little groups of drops and the size of droplet is larger for GPL105 than GPL100. Other oils such as silicone oil and superlube did not form droplet and stayed pretty flat.
« Last Edit: Thu, 01 March 2012, 15:58:29 by limmy »

Offline RiGS

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RE: Lube
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 17:42:56 »
In case of cherry switches you have to remove the silicone grease from the contact leaf and the slider with alcohol prior using the Krytox or RO. Either way it is not convinient, however if you are about to restore the feel of old switches, or just simply want a more durable inert grease there, then I would use Finish Line Extreme Fluoro Grease. It is basically a rebranded Krytox grease, but much more affordable. As far as I know a few Koreans prefer the higher viscosity GPL-106 there, it makes sense to me as well, but it is a lot of hassle and unnecessary in most cases.
Personally I think it won't make much difference there as that part of the switch is already well lubed and smooth, and most of the friction occurs between the vertical side-grooves of the stem and the frames of the lower switch housing. However I don't think putting oil at those points would be a wise idea. Applying a more durable dry lubricant like the RO would be more sensible choice as it does not promote the accumulation of dust and dirt.
Yes, that part of the switch is exposed.
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 February 2012, 18:32:32 by RiGS »
Last edited by RiGS; Jan 2011

Offline limmy

  • Posts: 352
RE: Lube
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 23:33:53 »
Quote from: RiGS;529801
In case of cherry switches you have to remove the silicone grease from the contact leaf and the slider with alcohol prior using the Krytox or RO. Either way it is not convinient, however if you are about to restore the feel of old switches, or just simply want a more durable inert grease there, then I would use Finish Line Extreme Fluoro Grease. It is basically a rebranded Krytox grease, but much more affordable. As far as I know a few Koreans prefer the higher viscosity GPL-106 there, it makes sense to me as well, but it is a lot of hassle and unnecessary in most cases.
Personally I think it won't make much difference there as that part of the switch is already well lubed and smooth, and most of the friction occurs between the vertical side-grooves of the stem and the frames of the lower switch housing. However I don't think putting oil at those points would be a wise idea. Applying a more durable dry lubricant like the RO would be more sensible choice as it does not promote the accumulation of dust and dirt.
Yes, that part of the switch is exposed.

My new Poker has new factory lubed Cherry red switch, so I didn't feel a need to lube the switches. Maybe if I use the switch long enough, I might feel a need for lubrication, but not yet. I know HHKB will eventually need lubrication, so I would lubricate my like-new HHKB as preventive measure.

When I purchased a new Dell AT101W with black Alps(manufactured well over 10 years ago I suppose), the switches were all gritty and not smooth. I lubed the metal leaf and the springs with silicone oil(it was Victorinox Multi-tool oil), pretty much every gritty feeling has gone away. At the time, I didn't lubricate where the sliders meet the switch housing. So, I think the major place where friction matters in a mechanical switch is where plastic slider meets metal leaf. For Alps switch, the surface area of metal leaf touches the plastic slider is considerably larger than that of Cherries.(There are two metal pieces touching plastic slider in Alps one of which has considerable surface that touches plastic slider. There is only one in Cherry) For this reason, I think lubrication is much more effective in Alps than in Cherry switches.

It has been two full years since I lubricated Alps, but dust gumming up lube didn't happen. My dell is more or less same as it was lubricated. I didn't use the board a lot, but it was not stored in a box either. It was laying around in my office for two years. So dust gumming up lube argument doesn't seem persuasive to me.

For some who doubt effectiveness of lubrication of Alps switches, I have recorded typing before and after lube. I cannot really convey the feel of the switches, but hope sounds will some part of story. I would upload the MP3 files here, but I don't know how, so I will put a link. Be warned that the website is pretty slow outside of Korea. Link(look for Dell NO Lube.MP3 and Dell Lube.MP3)

In conclusion,
1. friction in mechanical switches is greatest in metal to plastic contacts
2. wet lube attracting dust doesn't seem to be supported by evidence

The above conclusion is drawn from my experience with new Dell AT101W which was manufactured long time ago. So, it could be possible that the friction between switch housing and the sliders builds up after some use. The switch housing of Alps seems to be ABS plastic(acetone melts them) which is terrible material where friction is concerned, so it is possible that friction builds up as the plastic get degraded. In Cherry switches however, housing is known to be PBT and the sliders Derlin, both of which are pretty slick compared to ABS plastic. See the chart in my post in KBDMania.

Also, dry lube is in a sense not so durable because it cannot fix itself. Wet lube can be dispersed if it partly wears off, but the same self healing process is less likely to happen in dry lube. If glued and dried surface of RO is scratched, then the scratched surface is going to suffer friction, whereas wet lube is going to be lubricated as long as it is wet(enough lube is left). RO and wet lube have their own strong and weak points, so I think it would be hard to say one is superior to another.

Sorry for the super long post....


Edit:
I tried Krytox on my Cherry red switch. It really feels and sound different. It feels very smooth. I also tried sticker mod (I used filament tape instead of the stickers specifically designed for the mod) and I find that noise from rattling housing is eliminated. The lubing of the sliders dampens scratching noise. After the lube + sticker mod + o-rings, my Cherry reds are very very quiet.

I believe ripster will come along and say it is some sort of psychological effect or something, but it really does feel different after the lube. (I conducted blind test myself with loud music on.) It definitely sound different as well. Rattling noise of switch housing is gone(due to sticker mod), scratching and ping sound from spring is gone(due to silicone lube to the springs), and subtle plastic to plastic sliding sound is gone(due to Krytox lube on the sliders). I dropped a drop of silicone oil on the stem of slider that holds spring in place, and painted Krytox on sliders and the places the sliders touch.

I am going to see how the lube is going to hold up. So far Krytox GPL100 and GPL105 seems to have same feel (I couldn't tell the difference between the two lubricants when applied)

Do I think it is worth it? Probably not worth my time, but it is certainly not useless. Now that I see the effect, I begin to understand why many people spend their time moding Cherry switches. I would probably try the lube and mod when I have loads of free time.

In case anyone is interested in sticker mod, I have written a post in Korean comparing sound difference. here (look for Cherry_Blues_sticker_mod.zip for sound sample in the link) I posted some photos of the mod and graphs representing sound waves(? I don't know what they call them. Is it oscillograph?)
« Last Edit: Wed, 29 February 2012, 05:36:45 by limmy »

Offline Glukos

  • Posts: 86
RE: Lube
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 29 February 2012, 12:43:19 »
Quote from: bsvP585hUO2Y6;151551
o2dazone wrote on 5982 September 1993:

> I used dry lube on my spacebar support on my Filco. It stopped the
> squeak for a while, but I eventually went with white lithium grease to
> quiet it. Haven't used it inside the keys though

IMHO lubing stabilizers isn't in the same ballpark as lubing the
switches.  I listened to a squealing MX11800 spacebar for a couple of
weeks till I remembered that tube of silicon grease I bought years
ago...  A toothpick tip applied to the stabilizer joints was sufficient
to silence it.

I agree with didjamatic that lubing the switches is Evil.
I beg your pardon?