Thinking of building...

[Griftrix]

Hi! 

What do you think of this layout?  It has all standard sized keys, except the 1.75 fn, is that going to be a problem?

I want it for gaming mostly.  The idea is to make a small keyboard so I can have lots of desk room for other things, while still having a small desk.  I was thinking of using the software that the input club has on their site.  I found a site to print a plate for me, and I guess I just have to wire up a teensy++2.0?  I have never made a keyboard before, so any advice is much appreciated.

Thanks!
-Griftrix

[Scarpia]

Refreshing idea - but a few things you should be aware of:

1. The Home and End keys are going to look wonky if you use standard profiled keycaps, since those caps are in the R1 and R2 profile, but you have positioned them in row 4. Using a non-profiled keyset like DSA fixes this, since all rows use the same profile, but it's something to be aware of

2. Moving the arrow cluster closer to the space bar is neat, but it comes at a high cost: not having a right shift key. This may not seem like a big deal, and for gaming it probably won't matter, but it is a terrible thing for typing, since you can no longer do one handed uppercase letters for half the keyboard. There is a reason why every keyboard layout has two shift keys, even ultra-minimalist ones like the JD40 or the SmallFry and exotic ones like the Ergodox.

[Tactile]

You don't need a Teensy++, a regular Teensy 2.0 will work just fine.

[Griftrix]

Great advice.

I actually have pretty big hands, and only just recently learned how to use the shift key this year (ask my Co workers, they were a little annoyed).  I'll try removing the right shift on the poker 3 I'm using now and see if it's true i don't use that key.

I forgot to mention, for vr games i will be typing blind. So i was considering using different key caps for modifiers and non main keys, to make it easier to find things. That may make uniform key caps for home and end a pretty good option.

I also came up with the home and end thing before i saw a board that uses Fn left right for those, which might be a fine solution for how infrequently they may be used.  On the poker 3 right now I'm learning a sense of how much i really use those.

The reason i was looking at the teensy++2.0 is because the KLL at the input club says teensy 2.0 is partially supported, and i don't know what that means.

Thanks again for the feedback, i will keep thinking and reading!
-griftrix

[Tactile]

The reason i was looking at the teensy++2.0 is because the KLL at the input club says teensy 2.0 is partially supported, and i don't know what that means.

Ahh... OK. I was assuming you'd be using TMK or QMK.

[Griftrix]

I don't know almost anything about firmware.  Should i use those instead?  Also, i might want to have it also be ausb hub, and maybe add lights later.  What considerations should i have for that?

Thanks!
-Griftrix

[Tactile]

I don't know almost anything about firmware.  Should i use those instead?  Also, i might want to have it also be ausb hub, and maybe add lights later.  What considerations should i have for that?

Thanks!
-Griftrix

Naw, go ahead with what you have planned. Don't change anything on my account. At a quick glance it looks to me like the KLL should work for you. The only disadvantage is you'll need to ignore anything I say 'cause I don't know anything about it. 

[Griftrix]

My goals for this controller is to have normal stuff, and a Fn layer.  I need to set the keys to what I want them to be (isn't that all controllers?).  I don't need to program macros or anything like that.  I guess theoretically I might want a couple of macros, like ctrl shift esc, or alt ctrl del, but those are only theoretical.  Using this poker 3 (now with right shift removed) should give me an idea of what I will miss, and what keys are important to me.  Btw, while typing that sentence, I missed the arrow keys .

Thanks again for all the help!
-Griftrix

P.S. I think I figured out why I don't need right shift.  I'm not a home row typer because of all the games I've played.  I keep my left pinky on shift as I type.  My home keys for my left hand are Shift, A W/E R
(edit) I apparently tried to use right shift to type ?   I can unlearn that I'm sure.

[Griftrix]

You were right... I type '?' enough that I miss the right shift

I have this proposed change, with the challenge that a 1 sized shift probably doesn't exist.  It also takes it .25 units past standard 60%, which limits the cases I can easily get without making or custom ordering.  I could shift row 4 .25 units left, by making left shift 2 units, but that will maybe missalign the whole row in a challenging way, and also give me a non standard left shift to deal with.

But... This is basically the Leopold FC660M.  Which would be CONSIDERABLY easier to get. Although, that one is a whole unit wider.

What do you think?
-Griftrix

[Griftrix]

Or this... Solves 60% case size, and non standard shift size.  Just a little weird on up and down arrow... Don't know how I'll feel about it.

[Scarpia]

Or have a look at the "Ideal Arrow 60%" layout I proposed in this thread on Deskthority:



Don't worry about the top or left hand side of the layout, just consider the bottom right hand corner. By simply reshuffling the /? key you solve the right shift problem (you actually get a *better* right Shift position than standard ANSI) while keeping the inverted-T shaped arrow cluster and staying inside the 60% form factor. For my money that's the best solution to fitting an arrow cluster in a 60% layout without making unacceptable compromises.

And if the 'dimple' on the right bothers your OCD, then swap out the left Shift for an ISO 1.25u Shift key and place the /? key next to the Z key.

[Griftrix]

What if I programmed "[up arrow] /" to be "[down arrow] ?"?

The idea being, when I hit the arrow and ?, thinking that's my missing right shift, it cancels out my arrow press, and types a '?'.  I know there are some text box scenarios where that won't work (top line when the edit area is already multi line).  Is there an undo cursor movement command?  I guess that may require even more programming.

I've also learned I like hitting F5.  My desk requirements don't demand that I have a small depth on my keyboard.  As long as I'm going out of 60%, I could add an F row.  Or maybe just use some of my bottom right space to add a refresh key .  I wonder how bad a .25u shift to the left of the 4th row really is....

Also, does anyone know if there are half unit high mechanical switches?  Is it crazy to think about an arrow cluster that takes 3 spots in line?

Thanks!
-Griftrix

[Scarpia]

Well, kind of. Alps SKCL Compact are half-sized, but I doubt you're going for an Alps build. For Cherry MX, I don't know of such a thing. But a much harder question: where would you get the half-height keycaps for such an arrow cluster? Does such a thing even exist?

[Griftrix]

I have no idea...  The best layout for my typing seems to be .25u over, or .25u shifted left, or I go 16 wide, in which case I'm basically at a Whitefox Aria (which is by no means bad!).

I'll keep thinking about it.  Meanwhile... I need to see how zelios feel.  Cherry browns are my current favorite (I think), with MAYBE red modifiers.  The idea of mix and match might be better in my head than it is on a board.

-Griftrix

[Scarpia]

Yeah, if you don't mind going one column wide, then you could do a whole lot worse than Whitefox Aria. That is a great layout.

[Griftrix]

Allright... New design...

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/5729c2d3e3505a6aca08d3751684229f  (I think I did this link properly)

Things to note.  I squished the left keys of the 2-5th rows by 0.25u.  Shifting row 4 left by that amount would miss align my typing keys, but shifting the rest, and essentially miss aligning the numbers seems like a fine compromise (how often do I type numbers?  I guess we'll see!).  This means that I have odd sized Tab, Fn, Shift, and Ctrl.  It also makes the right side not flush, in favor of keeping standard key sizes there.  I'm sorry if your OCD is exploding (mine is a little).  If I learn that those keycaps are easy enough to find in 0.25u wider, then I can adjust the design to make those flush.

Please let me know your feedback.  This idea seems more feasible than a 0.75u right shift, which was my other plan...

Thanks!
-Griftrix

[Scarpia]

OCD issues aside, I can't wrap my head around what you are trying to do with those (impossible to find) short left side modifiers in R2-5.

If you simply used a standard size Tab, a "Caps Lock sized" Fn, and a standard Ctrl, then all you'd need is an ISO left shift (easy to find) in order to balance the rest with standard stagger.

The only sacrifice is in the left shift size and the position of the /? symbol key. It's up to you whether to place the ISO left shift flush against the left side of the board (standard ISO position and nicer colorway) or one position in as in the following example (nonstandard location BUT closer to your left pinky):

Layout example

It's not perfect perhaps, but compared to the OCD bombshell of a non-flush right edge, tiny right shift and *five* keys you can't find caps for, I would call the ISO shift version a lot easier to build and a lot easier to get used to.

[Griftrix]

So I see a few possible compromises

1) 16u wide
2) 15.25u wide
3) learn to type ? with left shift
4) move ? somewhere weird
5) make ? a standard key, and use shift for /
6) even crazier ideas like trying to figure out a 0.75u shift key

Of all of these... the wider boards, or learning to use left shift for ? seem the least crazy.  Any of the ideas that move ? involve learning a new way to ?, which using left shift seems the simplest of.

Maybe I'll just make a 15.25u wide keyboard.  those few millimeters of desk space seem like a light compromise for me personally.

Thanks so much for all the feedback!
-Griftrix

[Griftrix]

OK.  I'm pulling the trigger!

I have ordered a plate from our friendly http://builder.swillkb.com/ and such.  And I joined the 60% acrylic case drop on massdrop.  Now I just need switches, diodes, wires, keycaps, and some building knowledge and skill.  I really would like to do some LED stuff in the case, which is why I got the acrylic case.

Should I get the teensy chip?  That seems to be what everyone is using.  How should I hook up the LED backlighting?  I have a nice corsair keyboard with sweet RGB backlights I can probably steal, but it's way too big and way to loud for me to use as my actual keyboard.  I'm sure they have their own PCB and everything.  Should I get a separate adafruit chip and wire that up somehow?  If I get  teensy++ 2.0 could I do it all with just that controller?

Also, what's the difference between MX brown and MX RGB brown?

Uggghhh, now I'm looking at 2 ebay posts, trying to figure out the difference.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/61-87-104-108-120-PCs-Gateron-SMD-RGB-Brown-3-Pin-Plate-Mount-Mechanical-Switch-/282222649651
http://www.ebay.com/itm/61-87-104-108-120-PCs-Gateron-RGB-Series-Brown-3Pin-Mechanical-Switch-Keyboard-/272090387702

Thanks!
-Griftrix

p.s. Below is the design I am going with.  After weeks of using a 60% keyboard with the right modifiers removed, I know this is the right choice.  The only things that annoyed me are not having arrows, and missing delete

[ReadmeDotTxt]

Can't advise you on the teensy, but I can comment on the different switches you are looking at.

The difference between the switches you linked are that one supports Surface-Mount Devices (SMD) and the other supports through hole LEDs, the ones the two legs. It appears that both support RGB LEDs . My knowledge about that ends there, so someone with more experience will have to chip in. A short google gave me this.
LED vs SMD - https://heracolights.com/2014/03/07/led-vs-smd/

[Griftrix]

That's super helpful.  Thank you very much.  I think I need 3mm flangeless LEDs.  Does that sound right?  I found some auto cycling RGB LEDs, but I think I would prefer some manual control ones.  Afterall, I should be able to program them to cycle myself

Thanks so much for the help everyone!
-Griftrix