Author Topic: Firewire experiences?  (Read 3552 times)

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Offline whininggit

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Firewire experiences?
« on: Sun, 24 January 2010, 11:10:35 »
I hear many people claim that Firewire is superior to USB 2.0, and indeed, the fact that it's not CPU-driven is an advantage, but whenever I've tried it, it is simply not good enough.

I have an external hard disk which supports both Firewire and USB 2.0. It's based around an Oxford chipset, not sure of the model. For read, Firewire actually does quite well and hits 40MB/s which is pretty much the limits of the interface. Writes however are just painfully slow - gradually decreasing until they sit at around 10MB/s. The exact same enclosure with the exact same disk will write at 25MB/s. I can live with 25MB/s, at least file copy times are reasonable.

This is not an OS issue - I had the same problem on Windows XP, Vista and now 7, and also on Ubuntu when I ran it on this system. Likewise, I've tried different controllers - both the onboard VIA controller (which should 'just work') and the controller on an Audigy 2 ZS card.

I suppose it could be an issue with the enclosure, but then again for as many people proclaiming that Firewire is a million times better than USB 2.0, there seem to be just as many who point out that not even Apple back it any more.

So, just wondering, what are Geekhacker's experiences?
« Last Edit: Sun, 24 January 2010, 11:15:40 by whininggit »
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Offline hyperlinked

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 24 January 2010, 11:22:14 »
Are you using Firewire 400 or 800? If it's FW400, then the idea that it's way better was probably around from the days in which USB 2.0 wasn't quite in use yet.
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Offline whininggit

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 24 January 2010, 11:24:30 »
Firewire 400.
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Offline hyperlinked

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 24 January 2010, 12:47:38 »
I'm not sure I'm saying anything that you don't already know and probably know better, but from what I understand, FireWire's advantage diminishes when you're dealing with a high volume of files. It's truly best for transferring large files like video. Still, FW400 is still supposed to be faster than USB 2.0.

They just did a review of a drive on Tom's Hardware comparing FW and USB 2.0 on the drive. FW was faster.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/usb-firewire-esata,2534-4.html

Here's some older testing done on a Mac:
http://www.barefeats.com/mbpp10.html

Macs had long suffered diminished USB 2.0 speeds that were improved a couple of years ago. It was newsworthy that in a Bare Feats test that USB 2.0 and FW400 came in pretty close, but both were shredded by FW800 and that in turn was left in the dust by SATA (naturally).
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Offline Rajagra

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 24 January 2010, 13:50:53 »
I think firewire is truly bidirectional - in the sense that neither end is inherently master or slave. You can connect two PCs via firewire as a form of networking. So I don't see how firewire itself can be blamed for data transfer being slower in one direction than the other.

There could be something in the theory that it's best with sustained throughput rather than lots of small packets needing handshaking.

Offline keyb_gr

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 24 January 2010, 14:02:37 »
I know that problem. My parents' machine has an old capture card with Firewire that's used for an external WD sometimes.  Reads used to be at 30 MB/s easily but writes were around 10 only. I figured it was the PCI/PCI bridge on the card (DEC something or other, IIRC).

Then the system changed radically (the old AMD 760 based board died, and the replacement PC was a Dell workstation with i955) - and Firewire write performance was up.

BTW, in terms of FW controller chips, TIs are supposed to be the best.
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Offline D-EJ915

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 24 January 2010, 15:53:20 »
firewire's BIG advantage is that it did not require a computer like USB did

Offline whininggit

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 06:20:15 »
Quote from: Rajagra;153434
So I don't see how firewire itself can be blamed for data transfer being slower in one direction than the other.

True, but writes are still slower on my setup for whatever reason, whatever the theory suggests. Perhaps the Oxford controller has buggy firmware that's affecting the FW->IDE and FW->SATA conversion. Perhaps there is something wrong with the Firewire cable (leading the retries in one direction) - maybe if I reverse the cable I'll get bad read and good writes - I didn't try that.

I think I'll stick with USB 2.0 for the time being rather than put any effort into finding out what is wrong. I think if/once the FW/USB enclosure dies, I'll replace with eSATA.
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Offline sethstorm

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 06:23:43 »
Quote from: whininggit;153411
I hear many people claim that Firewire is superior to USB 2.0, and indeed, the fact that it's not CPU-driven is an advantage, but whenever I've tried it, it is simply not good enough.

I have an external hard disk which supports both Firewire and USB 2.0. It's based around an Oxford chipset, not sure of the model. For read, Firewire actually does quite well and hits 40MB/s which is pretty much the limits of the interface. Writes however are just painfully slow - gradually decreasing until they sit at around 10MB/s. The exact same enclosure with the exact same disk will write at 25MB/s. I can live with 25MB/s, at least file copy times are reasonable.

So, just wondering, what are Geekhacker's experiences?


I've mostly used it for disks and reading out raw memory (thanks to firewire allowing such access).
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Offline kriminal

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 06:54:04 »
i dont see firewire being the issue in your write speeds.. what Hdds are in the enclosure?
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Offline devilcm3

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 06:58:04 »
steve jobs created firewire so that past generation macs will look indifferent..but it turns out that firewire isnt that popular versus USB despite the advantages...
why made a product that only support 20% of the computers in the market when you can gain more profit when selling for the other 80%

heck..apple finally gave up and introduce USB in their machines

plus that there are more and more interface coming out such as eSata and when it was introduced to the market the speed comparison between three interfaces it is clear that eSata wins by alot of margin(2.4Gbps versus 480Mbps and 800Mbps)

and..yes..i still think that firewire is crap...usb (will always) pawn firewire in general use
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Offline ak_nala

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 08:30:33 »
Sorry devilcm3, your facts are wrong. Steve Jobs didn't have anything to do with the development of Firewire. The project that became Firewire was initiated at Apple during his long, bitter, absence and was finalized before he came back by an industry group largely using Apple's R&D. It was intended as a replacement for SCSI, which was Apple's choice of the time for high-speed data transfer (hard drives, scanners, etc.), with the additional intention of creating something also suitable for high-end audio and video applications. As such it was embraced by Sony and others for A/V devices almost universally, at least initially.

USB, on the other hand, was developed by a different group of companies (Intel, IBM, Microsoft, etc.) as a simplified replacement for the multitude of low-bandwidth connections that crowded the back of PCs - serial, parallel and PS/2 connectors, etc.

Development of Firewire started in 1986. USB in the early 90's.

Despite all this history and the competing sources of the technology, when it came time to start transitioning to the new interfaces, it was Steve Jobs who made the decision to become an early adopter of USB on Macs, BEFORE getting rid of SCSI and putting Firewire on Apple's computers, and before most of the rest of the industry.

Gotta give the man (and the company) credit where it is due.

It is true that Macs were slow to adopt USB 2.0, but since it was mostly seen as being redundant to Firewire it was understandable from a business standpoint, if also quite frustrating to users. Regardless, due to the nature of their original intended purposes and the engineering decisions that resulted, Firewire is generally better suited for Mass Storage devices and A/V applications than USB (including USB 2.0), which is better for general peripheral attachments.
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 January 2010, 08:52:07 by ak_nala »
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Offline Rajagra

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 13:37:10 »
Let us not forget just how crappy USB was in its early years. Nothing worked, and when it did it was slow and unreliable. Second only to Bluetooth in how useless it was in its infancy.

USB has only overtaken Firewire because of its continued development. FW has mostly stagnated, with no more than a token increase in speed. At least that's the impression it gives to users.

Offline ricercar

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 13:52:44 »
Firewire is better for asynchronous transfers (streaming media)
USB is better for bulk transfers (disk writes/reads)
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Offline ak_nala

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 17:33:12 »
Quote from: ricercar;153641
Firewire is better for asynchronous transfers (streaming media)
USB is better for bulk transfers (disk writes/reads)


I don't agree. For disk read/rights, Firewire (on a Mac) has been faster and much more reliable than USB 1.1 or 2.0. USB wasn't designed for any degree of efficiency in bulk transfers. It was designed for things like keyboards and mice, and unfortunately they have largely been stuck with the resulting architecture through 2.0. Too much cpu overhead to be considered ideal for hard drives, IMO, and a bit more prone (at least in my experience) to kick out occasional read/write errors.

Mind you, eSATA blows them both away for this purpose, and USB is ideal for most peripherals and at least adequate for short-term data transfers, so the role of Firewire is rapidly being marginalized.

BTW - on the Mac, USB implementation was very good right out of the gate for the things it was designed to be good at (replacing things like serial and ADB). It was only marginal for things like bulk data transfers with heavy read/rights, and most (but not all) of the problems with that were with speed.
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 January 2010, 17:38:54 by ak_nala »
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Offline ak_nala

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 19:50:36 »
Pretty much.
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Offline The General

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 19:56:35 »
one of the reasons why i tend to prefer firewire for my external hard drives is because i can daisy chain them and have them all plugged into my computer using one port. i realize that while accessing multiple drives at once, it poses a performance degradation, but i don't care that much.

Offline microsoft windows

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Firewire - crap?
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 25 January 2010, 20:06:12 »
I don't use external hard disks, but I know people who do and they prefer to use E-SATA. They say it's a lot faster than USB and 1394. You can find an E-SATA card for pretty cheap off any computer equipment web site.
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