Vintage cherry blacks vs. new

[OfTheWild]

Just wanted to confirm with you experts... The one on the left is what we're calling vintage black right? the one on the right is new.

[davkol]

Not really. Cherry Corp. replaced their tooling gradually. When it comes to feel, the most important parts are sliders, housings, perhaps springs. Either logo can be used with the "good" switches.

[need]

I heard that pre '94 is when Cherry still using their old tooling

[OfTheWild]

so basically i should take both apart and see if there are any differences inside as well? The new switch is one i set in there to compare logos... otherwise the board is full of the larger logo switch tops.

[need]

so basically i should take both apart and see if there are any differences inside as well? The new switch is one i set in there to compare logos... otherwise the board is full of the larger logo switch tops.

I guess you could compare the stems with a magnifying glass, and see which one has a smoother side surfaces...I heard modern ones has a porous texture.

[need]

You should also take a look at the cases, and find out their production date:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_date_codes

[davkol]

Someone's claimed, that the final transition didn't happen until 1997 or so IIRC. If it's newer, it's definitely modern. If it's older, you should just try it side by side with a switch, that's vintage and in good condition for sure. A good one will be butter smooth and shouldn't make a scratching sound during travel. I don't expect you to have a good mic (like someone has used over at Deskthority) or HaaTa's force gauge.

[Geroximo]

The Distinction goes as follows:

1. Press the switch
2. Say a)"wtf is this ****" or b)"this feels good"
3. If a): it's a new MX Black, if b): it's probably a vintage MX Black

[OfTheWild]

They might be a little smoother i guess. Nothing ground breaking. The guts of the board say its made by Wyse with dial indicator dates of 1990. The board is basically brand new.

[klennkellon]

according to chryos a good way is to put the loose switches up to your ear and press them. new MX Blacks have a much sandier sound. Like gritty.

[OfTheWild]

according to chryos a good way is to put the loose switches up to your ear and press them. new MX Blacks have a much sandier sound. Like gritty.

ooooh yeah, theres the difference. Yes, held right at your ear you can clearly hear a difference between the vintage and the new. 

[OfTheWild]

Also, whats all this talk about "tuned vintage blacks" that all the kustoms crew keeps talking about... what exactly are we 'tuning'?

[klennkellon]

Also, whats all this talk about "tuned vintage blacks" that all the kustoms crew keeps talking about... what exactly are we 'tuning'?

Lube and custom springs.

[CMYK]

You should also take a look at the cases, and find out their production date:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_date_codes

Do those date codes only apply to the keyboard, Cherry MX switch, or both?

[menuhin]

I gave up the idea of looking for Vintage MX blacks because it is difficult to tell if it is vintage and usually these switches are from older boards. That means you are going to harvest them from these older boards that are usually more elegant than new designs in recent years.

Just because I can't convert them then I harvest from them for unknown switches even when their layout, design, and condition all sound? Well, I go for an easier path: Gateron blacks.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70676.msg1706632#msg1706632

[Signature]

You should also take a look at the cases, and find out their production date:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_date_codes

Do those date codes only apply to the keyboard, Cherry MX switch, or both?

Both!

[CMYK]

I bought a WYSE terminal keyboard to desolder vintage Cherry mx black switch.  Deskthority states that the Cherry black was introduced in 1984. My WYSE board has a production date of 1986 on the PCB, but all of my switches have a letter A followed by three numbers.  Does that mean my particular switches are 1988 production?  What did Cherry do for switches made in 1984-1987?

[OfTheWild]

The board i just pulled these from is also made by Wyse... and theres a manufacturing stamp in it thats pretty clear:

[davkol]

Can you read the paper? I don't think I can.

The case's manufacturing date is rather irrelevant, because Wyse often used old stock for various parts. I've had a terminal, that passed QC in '94, but the PCB was completed in '92 and the case was from '90 IIRC. They sometimes put even more completely different batches of switches on the PCB.

[need]

If you can hear a distinctive difference, surely it's vintage blacks. They're just that much smoother.

[pr0ximity]

I gave up the idea of looking for Vintage MX blacks because it is difficult to tell if it is vintage and usually these switches are from older boards. That means you are going to harvest them from these older boards that are usually more elegant than new designs in recent years.

Just because I can't convert them then I harvest from them for unknown switches even when their layout, design, and condition all sound? Well, I go for an easier path: Gateron blacks.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70676.msg1706632#msg1706632

I'm all for preserving vintage boards instead of harvesting nice linears (see my Zenith) but Gat Blacks are no substitute for someone who enjoys vintage MX. The wobble on them is very noticeable and it seems the stem is made of a softer plastic.

[wodan]

I'm all for preserving vintage boards instead of harvesting nice linears (see my Zenith) but Gat Blacks are no substitute for someone who enjoys vintage MX. The wobble on them is very noticeable and it seems the stem is made of a softer plastic.

There's no shortcut to perfect linears ... Vintage Black is the only way.

[Geroximo]

I'm all for preserving vintage boards instead of harvesting nice linears (see my Zenith) but Gat Blacks are no substitute for someone who enjoys vintage MX. The wobble on them is very noticeable and it seems the stem is made of a softer plastic.

I beg to differ. I think Gateron Blacks are extremely close to vintage Blacks and definitly a good substitute.

[OfTheWild]

Can you read the paper? I don't think I can.

The case's manufacturing date is rather irrelevant, because Wyse often used old stock for various parts. I've had a terminal, that passed QC in '94, but the PCB was completed in '92 and the case was from '90 IIRC. They sometimes put even more completely different batches of switches on the PCB.

Yup, the paper stamps on the case and PCB are all stamped 79... I'm thinking this either either wrong, or is a date code.  E.g. 79.5.13 RevA is whats on that one i posted. The case plastic imprint is 5/13/90

[skcheng]

I'm all for preserving vintage boards instead of harvesting nice linears (see my Zenith) but Gat Blacks are no substitute for someone who enjoys vintage MX. The wobble on them is very noticeable and it seems the stem is made of a softer plastic.

I beg to differ. I think Gateron Blacks are extremely close to vintage Blacks and definitly a good substitute.

I'm not a huge fan of the Gateron Blacks compared to modified vintage Blacks.  But that's just my opinion ......

[skcheng]

Also, whats all this talk about "tuned vintage blacks" that all the kustoms crew keeps talking about... what exactly are we 'tuning'?

Spring weight to suit your preference.   Reason why MORE people don't use MX Blacks is cuz some of us weight weenies don't love the heavy springs for daily typing.   I personally like 45g to 65g gold springs.   

And carefully lubed sliders really help with reducing friction for that ultra smooth lubey feel. 

In addition, Victorinox oil on the springs can further smooth out the action.   But it's all preference.   Some just throw vintage Nixdorf blacks in their custom builds and call it a day.   

[pr0ximity]

Also, whats all this talk about "tuned vintage blacks" that all the kustoms crew keeps talking about... what exactly are we 'tuning'?

Spring weight to suit your preference.   Reason why MORE people don't use MX Blacks is cuz some of us weight weenies don't love the heavy springs for daily typing.   I personally like 45g to 65g gold springs.   

And carefully lubed sliders really help with reducing friction for that ultra smooth lubey feel. 

In addition, Victorinox oil on the springs can further smooth out the action.   But it's all preference.   Some just throw vintage Nixdorf blacks in their custom builds and call it a day.

Don't forget the age-old debate about stickers.

[OfTheWild]

Also, whats all this talk about "tuned vintage blacks" that all the kustoms crew keeps talking about... what exactly are we 'tuning'?

Spring weight to suit your preference.   Reason why MORE people don't use MX Blacks is cuz some of us weight weenies don't love the heavy springs for daily typing.   I personally like 45g to 65g gold springs.   

And carefully lubed sliders really help with reducing friction for that ultra smooth lubey feel. 

In addition, Victorinox oil on the springs can further smooth out the action.   But it's all preference.   Some just throw vintage Nixdorf blacks in their custom builds and call it a day.

Don't forget the age-old debate about stickers.

Yeah i use blacks at work for 8-10 hours a day and can say that I generally like them but could go for something slightly softer. Maybe one day i'll get bored and desolder and do stickers and lube.

Anyone know if theres a vector file for stickers out there? Find me the file and I'll give you a set of stickers for free! (I have a vinyl cutter)

[pr0ximity]

Yeah i use blacks at work for 8-10 hours a day and can say that I generally like them but could go for something slightly softer. Maybe one day i'll get bored and desolder and do stickers and lube.

Anyone know if theres a vector file for stickers out there? Find me the file and I'll give you a set of stickers for free! (I have a vinyl cutter)

https://github.com/mohitg11/GH-CAD-Resources

[OfTheWild]

Yeah i use blacks at work for 8-10 hours a day and can say that I generally like them but could go for something slightly softer. Maybe one day i'll get bored and desolder and do stickers and lube.

Anyone know if theres a vector file for stickers out there? Find me the file and I'll give you a set of stickers for free! (I have a vinyl cutter)

https://github.com/mohitg11/GH-CAD-Resources

Oh nice, turns out I already had these 3 in my downloads folder. Regardless, i'm a man of my word - You want a set? pic a type and how many and i'll run them off for you.

[menuhin]

I'm all for preserving vintage boards instead of harvesting nice linears (see my Zenith) but Gat Blacks are no substitute for someone who enjoys vintage MX. The wobble on them is very noticeable and it seems the stem is made of a softer plastic.

I beg to differ. I think Gateron Blacks are extremely close to vintage Blacks and definitly a good substitute.

I'm all for preserving vintage boards instead of harvesting nice linears (see my Zenith) but Gat Blacks are no substitute for someone who enjoys vintage MX. The wobble on them is very noticeable and it seems the stem is made of a softer plastic.

There's no shortcut to perfect linears ... Vintage Black is the only way.

Just like how the wine experts talk about how wonderful this or that wine is, I always wonder how good people can tell vintage blacks from some other close alternatives just by typing on them.

How about a blind-folded test in a meet up next time?
3+ Persons, 2 60% boards with otherwise the same specs (e.g. tray mounted plastic case same quality ABS caps etc, very important!)
Each person goes through 10 trials. Each trial consists of blindfolded 1 minute typing on one of the 2 keyboards before making a guess, keyboards are presented in permutated randomized order.
Then we average the % correct among the 3+ persons.

[OfTheWild]

I love blind tests like that... i used to give my old room mate a ton of audio and video tests since  he was a total snob about his audio equipment. The one thing i hate about sounds/feel tests for the mech community is no one seems to use the same board setup. e.g. zealios on a redscarf with pbt caps sound completely different than zealios on a MJ2 TKL plastic board with SA caps. Why even make that youtube video! lol

[Altis]

I love blind tests like that... i used to give my old room mate a ton of audio and video tests since  he was a total snob about his audio equipment. The one thing i hate about sounds/feel tests for the mech community is no one seems to use the same board setup. e.g. zealios on a redscarf with pbt caps sound completely different than zealios on a MJ2 TKL plastic board with SA caps. Why even make that youtube video! lol

Some people are rather sensitive to even the most minute changes. For example, I immediately noticed that black Topre keycaps sound quite different from the white/grey ones (on both RF and HHKB). I have yet to see anyone else mention it, though that could be because it isn't too common to have both.

MX Black and Gateron certainly sound different. I find Cherry always sounds more high-pitch (which I prefer) than Gateron or Zealios. So I'm not sure that Gateron would be an absolute substitute for vintage MX Black, but it'd certainly be close enough for most people given the ease of acquiring them.

[MandrewDavis]

Hello, need some help

I have two ~1995 Dolch Pac keyboards with what appear to be vintage Cherry housings and I have already bought some Gateron blacks to tune, sticker, and lube.

Aristotle stems are going in the Dolch Pac and linears are for the VE.A, but I don't like the look of the exposed clear tops. The plan was just to swap the black Cherry tops with the Gateron clear tops, leaving the VE.A with Gateron bottom housings, stems and vintage Cherry tops.

Here is the dilemma, what should I do for the best linear MX experience on my VE.A? I already have a two Dolch Pacs and 100 gateron blacks. Price will even out so that isn't a concern. 

•Source vintage blacks for the whole shebang.
•Harvest a Dolch Pac for the Cherry housings and throw in the Gateron black stems.
•Stick with the original plan and use Gateron Black bottom housings, stems and swap the tops from a Dolch Pac.

P.S. the vintage blues that are slightly pale in color are kinda awful IMO.

[OfTheWild]

so basically you dont like the gateron black clear tops and want to know if putting cherry top on them will screw up 'teh feels'? I take it both of the Dolch boards are vintage blues?

[MandrewDavis]

so basically you dont like the gateron black clear tops and want to know if putting cherry top on them will screw up 'teh feels'? I take it both of the Dolch boards are vintage blues?

I am more concerned about gateron stems and/or bottom housings screwing it up.

Both of the Dolch boards have vintage blues but I am going to be selling the stems soon.

[kawasaki161]

Just like how the wine experts talk about how wonderful this or that wine is, I always wonder how good people can tell vintage blacks from some other close alternatives just by typing on them.

How about a blind-folded test in a meet up next time?
3+ Persons, 2 60% boards with otherwise the same specs (e.g. tray mounted plastic case same quality ABS caps etc, very important!)
Each person goes through 10 trials. Each trial consists of blindfolded 1 minute typing on one of the 2 keyboards before making a guess, keyboards are presented in permutated randomized order.
Then we average the % correct among the 3+ persons.

Also make sure the typing test is with headphones playing loud music so you can't hear the board, sound is pretty different between them as well.

[OfTheWild]

so basically you dont like the gateron black clear tops and want to know if putting cherry top on them will screw up 'teh feels'? I take it both of the Dolch boards are vintage blues?

I am more concerned about gateron stems and/or bottom housings screwing it up.

Both of the Dolch boards have vintage blues but I am going to be selling the stems soon.

I cant speak on the vintage housings but i have put cherry tops on gateron (zealios) bottoms so I could steal the clear tops and it didnt have any adverse effect on the feel of the zealios. The whole smoothness is mostly the stem, but the only other friction point is the channels that it rides in that are part of the base... so if i understand your concern, i think you'll be fine.

[merlin64]

I have a new in box keyboard that has the vintage black large logos and they feel like crap compared to a very used keyboard that has a mix of small and large logo. I've always maintained that its wear & tear and age are the biggest contributors to that vintage black feel.

[OfTheWild]

I have a new in box keyboard that has the vintage black large logos and they feel like crap compared to a very used keyboard that has a mix of small and large logo. I've always maintained that its wear & tear and age are the biggest contributors to that vintage black feel.

I had that hope too. I've been using a ducky with modern blacks at work for 8+ hrs a day for almost 2 years now and its still scratchy and stiff compared to the NOS vintage blacks i pulled from that terminal board. Its literally a different quality of plastic on the stem itself... vintage is smooth and glossy and the modern looks almost porous. I actually just jumped in on the Gateron groupbuy from massdrop to pick up a set of blacks to sticker, lube, spring-swap, and stuff into that board for work. That is unless i can find some more vintage blacks to harvest 

[MandrewDavis]

Just received my 1987 Unitek K-155 with what I am 100% sure to be vintage blacks. The board is filthy and the switches overall don't feel great, hopefully after the tops and stems take a visit to the ultrasonic cleaner they will feel better. Don't want to go through the trouble of stickering and lubing for nothing.

Maybe with some work and new springs, they can overthrow green alps as my favorite linear switch. Otherwise Gaterons are going in the the VE.A 

[OfTheWild]

Nice! I picked up another one of these old terminal boards with the hopes of getting another ~100 switches to use... but now i have those 'Pandas' too so who knows.

[iamtootallforthis]

Nice! I picked up another one of these old terminal boards with the hopes of getting another ~100 switches to use... but now i have those 'Pandas' too so who knows.

Well there is always someone interested in them, like me. 

[digi]

Just received my 1987 Unitek K-155 with what I am 100% sure to be vintage blacks. The board is filthy and the switches overall don't feel great, hopefully after the tops and stems take a visit to the ultrasonic cleaner they will feel better. Don't want to go through the trouble of stickering and lubing for nothing.

Maybe with some work and new springs, they can overthrow green alps as my favorite linear switch. Otherwise Gaterons are going in the the VE.A 

Yea, I think vintage blacks were more relevant before Cherry's patent expired. It seems that now with switches like Gateron and Panda's, the gamble taken on buying old boards in hopes of smooth vintage blacks isn't worth it (cost wise).

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Yup, the paper stamps on the case and PCB are all stamped 79... I'm thinking this either either wrong, or is a date code.  E.g. 79.5.13 RevA is whats on that one i posted. The case plastic imprint is 5/13/90

Nothing is wrong. Minguo year 79 is 1990. The label date and wheel dates are the same.

Interesting to see Dih Shin's involvement. Better known now as DSI (Dih Shin International).

[OfTheWild]

Yup, the paper stamps on the case and PCB are all stamped 79... I'm thinking this either either wrong, or is a date code.  E.g. 79.5.13 RevA is whats on that one i posted. The case plastic imprint is 5/13/90

Nothing is wrong. Minguo year 79 is 1990. The label date and wheel dates are the same.

Interesting to see Dih Shin's involvement. Better known now as DSI (Dih Shin International).

AH, very nice! Thanks for following up.

[MandrewDavis]

Alright, after messing around with different configurations of Vintage Cherry Blacks<1987 and Gateron Blacks (black base +clear tops), along with their housings, sliders and stems I think I have come to a personal conclusion. Keep in mind that my vintage blacks were not in the best of condition and I am not comparing spring weights.

•No matter what type of housing, I prefer the vintage black stems. They have a hair less wobble than Gateron while being just as smooth.  Modern cherry blacks were very scratchy but still had less wobble than those by Gateron.

•In my case the Gateron bottom housings felt far smoother that the vintage ones, but YMMV depending on the condition of those you source. Also, if you are looking specifically for PCB mount vintage blacks, that is going to increase the difficulty of sourcing them.
 
•Gateron tops felt a tad smoother overall, but felt very wobbly compared to vintage cherry tops. Stock vintage blacks was just as wobbly as stock Gateron blacks. I found this problem was fixed by stickering them, where as the Gateron wobble seemed to be caused a combination of the tops and stems.

From my findings I think the best combination is going to be vintage black stems and tops with the Gateron bottom housings.  It struck the best balance between feeling precise and should be just as smooth after lubing. You just can't beat the look (and bragging rights ) of stickered+tuned Cherry switches. 

While Gateron blacks seem to be smoother as a whole, they feel too sloppy to me and I don't like the look of the clear tops. Still a very good option for those not looking to play the vintage lottery.

[OfTheWild]

Nice review. I actually just picked up another board to harvest vintage blacks from. I'll mail you one if you want to compare a NOS vs. used one.