Author Topic: Happy Hacking Keyboard usability question  (Read 11827 times)

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Offline exia

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Happy Hacking Keyboard usability question
« on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 12:11:57 »
How do you people even use this keyboard?

 it is missing the arrow keys.
it is missing the function keys
it is missing the home/end/pageup/pagedown/delete keys
it is missing the numpad (ok, missing numpad is no fine for most)
(also the windows key is gone, no big deal, whatever)

i find it to many keys are missing to be of practical long term day to day use. yet i people love this keyboard, why?

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #1 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 12:15:45 »

Offline bigpook

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« Reply #2 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 12:16:39 »
You use the function key to get page up/down, home/end. Its not so hard to get accustomed to ti.
Function keys require 2 keys to work, but once again, you get used to it.
I think the diamond key works as the windows key but I don't know as I use linux.

The beauty of the HHKB is that you stay on the home row for just about everything. Once you adjust to it its hard to leave. YMMV of course, and the layout is not for everyone. But FWIW, I emulate the layout on my other keyboards. For me it works very well.

dang, I just realized its exia...
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #3 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 12:19:03 »

Offline exia

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« Reply #4 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 12:23:36 »
Quote from: bigpook;155085
You use the function key to get page up/down, home/end. Its not so hard to get accustomed to ti.
Function keys require 2 keys to work, but once again, you get used to it.
I think the diamond key works as the windows key but I don't know as I use linux.

The beauty of the HHKB is that you stay on the home row for just about everything. Once you adjust to it its hard to leave. YMMV of course, and the layout is not for everyone. But FWIW, I emulate the layout on my other keyboards. For me it works very well.

dang, I just realized its exia...

what do mean by staying on the home row for everything?

and ch, don't you have better things to do than to troll in my threads? do you keep those pics on your harddrive for times like these?

Offline kishy

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« Reply #5 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 12:55:33 »
...one must wonder how one would obtain such a photo without searching for it.

Oh wait...the great chan of 4.
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #6 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 13:57:24 »
Quote from: exia;155088
what do mean by staying on the home row for everything?

The "home row", of course, is the row that starts with A. In touch-typing, the fingers of one's left hand are on ASDF, and the fingers of one's right hand are on JKL;.

Obviously, to type a 3, or an E, or a C, one's finger had to leave the home row. But because it didn't have to move too far, your little finger could stay on the A key, so that finger could easily find its way back to the D without looking at the keyboard.

Using keys in distant parts of the keyboard, like the cursor keys, the function keys, Page Up, and so on, means you have to actually lift your whole hand up off the keyboard, so you have to look at the keyboard to put your hand back in the regular typing position. Avoiding this is what "staying on the home row" as a virtue of the HHKB means.

Incidentally, in another thread, I proposed a design which eventually evolved into this:



as a more usable keyboard which attempted to retain this virtue of the HHKB - but which went beyond the HHKB Lite in adding, not just cursor keys, but most of the other extra keys, to the layout as one row of keys at the top. Others on that thread suggested more conventional laptop-like keyboards which did not require a special shift for any keys as preferable.
« Last Edit: Sun, 31 January 2010, 14:35:40 by quadibloc »

Offline exia

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« Reply #7 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 14:42:20 »
to get to the top row you need to leave the home row so how is this any better than the hhkp2?

Offline ricercar

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« Reply #8 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 14:47:52 »
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline spolia optima

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« Reply #9 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 15:06:02 »
Quote from: webwit;155097
Yeah what's with that? My pictures are better. Look, a girl riding a bike.

[ATTAH]7640[/ATTACH]

what is this i dont even
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Offline exia

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« Reply #10 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 15:08:58 »
Quote from: webwit;155097
Yeah what's with that? My pictures are better. Look, a girl riding a bike.



what is that sticking out in between her legs?

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #11 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 15:12:05 »
Quote from: exia;155145
what is that sticking out in between her legs?

That would be the seat of the bicycle.

Quote from: exia;155124
to get to the top row you need to leave the home row so how is this any better than the hhkp2?

The idea is that it's worse than the HHKB2 in that respect - there are some keys you have to reach further to get at. But it's better in addressing your other concern - that the HHKB has a big learning curve because you need to learn the shifted positions for so many keys. On the keyboard shown, which keys are F1 through F12 with the help of the Fn key is obvious. The three remaining keys - Print Screen, Scroll Lock, and Pause/Break, are not too hard to remember either.

The complicated part is picking your starting layout from the preconfigured ones. First, you turn on the numeric keypad with Num Lock, and then you use the ASD or ZXC keys to pick which one of Caps Lock, Windows Menu, or the International key (to the right of the right Shift key) you want to banish to F8 so as to make it the Fn key instead. And if you choose the ZX or C key to indicate your choice, the Windows Shift key on the opposite side of the keyboard becomes a second Fn key.

Once you've got an Fn key, then you can use it for complicated stuff like switching Caps Lock and the left-hand Control key if you so choose.
« Last Edit: Sun, 31 January 2010, 15:17:11 by quadibloc »

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #12 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 15:13:09 »
It's perfectly innocent.


Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #13 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 15:15:14 »
Quote from: webwit;155097
Yeah what's with that? My pictures are better. Look, a girl riding a bike.



I don't second your notion there.
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Offline JBert

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« Reply #14 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 15:16:39 »
Quote from: exia;155124
to get to the top row you need to leave the home row so how is this any better than the hhkp2?
The difference is that you'll only be moving vertically and mostly with just a couple of fingers. It should be fairly easy to find the noth on your F and J keys (or T and N keys for felow Colemak users) and thus return to the initial position.

When you have to reach for the cursor keys or home/end/delete block you can quickly lose track of the initial location as you have to move a longer distance, hence you lose some accuracy so you have to look down.
Compare this with pushing a meta key with your pinky and keeping most of your fingers on the home row.

The Miniguru keyboard is a similar Cherry-based alternative.

Quote from: exia;155145
what is that sticking out in between her legs?
The bike's saddle of course.
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Offline D-EJ915

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« Reply #15 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 16:00:05 »
dude webwit get rid of that picture lol

Offline spolia optima

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« Reply #16 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 16:15:44 »
it's really the bicycle seat
I just realized this now
I guess I was just seeing what I wanted to see

*shakes fist at sky* I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME WEBWIT
NEXT TIME!!!
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Offline Ranma13

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« Reply #17 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 17:50:57 »
As much as I don't like exia, I have to agree with him. As a .NET programmer (meaning I have to use Visual Studio), I use the function keys , arrow keys, and home and end keys very often. The lack of these keys wouldn't be such a big deal, except that the function key is placed all the way to the right, and all of these special keys require the right hand to press. As a result, I find myself pressing the function key with my pinky and then using my index finger to hit the key I want. It's pretty uncomfortable, especially when I want to hit the home and end keys because I have to stretch out my fingers.

I know what you're thinking, what about using the DIP switch that changes the Windows key into the function key? Unfortunately, I use the Windows key pretty extensively, so that's not really an option.

So in the end, the HHKB is definitely not for me. I like the size though (and detachable USB cord and hub) and I can see someone who spends their time extensively in a terminal really liking this keyboard.
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #18 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 18:25:09 »
Alright, you all. I'll sum up my opinion of the HHKB Pro in sentence: The whole thing's a racket.

That doesn't mean you have to think so too. If you like the way the functions are on the home row and are satisfied, then that's a good thing. If you think it's worth the $250, it's a little odd by some peoples' standards, but it's not my money.
« Last Edit: Sun, 31 January 2010, 18:27:39 by microsoft windows »
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #19 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 18:28:10 »
I would never play Tennis with my HHKB.

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #20 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 18:30:52 »
Quote from: ch_123;155206
I would never play Tennis with my HHKB.


I never told you it was a racquet.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #21 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 18:33:03 »
You should join forces with that angry German guy.

Offline Brodie337

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« Reply #22 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 18:42:46 »
I think it's a case of different horses for different courses.

While a gamer or PhotoShop user may not like the HHKB, or the similar minded Guru Board (I'm sorry, I can't remember the handle of the creator), someone who works in a command line environment, where any move too far from the home row is a waste of time and effort, these boards have some appeal. It's called Happy Hacking for a reason, I think, because its definitely aimed at a certain demographic.

I believe that alot of the appeal of the HHKB lies in the Topre switches, but with the space saver Realforce being less than $20 more, and I can't the little bit of real estate gained on the desk being worth the extra effort of learning the HHKB layout, unless, like I said, the home row ethos is suited to you.

Note that I don't own a HHKB, so this opinion is entirely based on speculation and the experience of other users.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #23 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 19:34:59 »
Incidentally, while my keyboard design does have an extra row of keys along the top, that doesn't force people not to choose a keyboard arrangement that makes it unnecessary to use them, once they gain more confidence in using the Fn key... so once they're committed to the Home Row ideal, they don't need to run out and buy an HHKB (or, sorry to say, a Miniguru).

Code: [Select]
---     ---------------   ---------------   ---------------
|   |   |   |   |   |   | |   |   |   |   | |   |   |   |   |
|   |   |   |   |   |   | |   |   |   |   | |   |   |   |   |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |       |
|ESC|F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 |F5 |F6 |F7 |F8 |F9 |F10|F11|F12|       |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|     |   |   |PG |   |   |   |CAP|WIN| < |   |   |   |     |
|     |INS|HOM|UP |   |   |   |LK |MNU| > |   |   |   |     |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|      |   |   |PG |NUM|   |   |   |   | ^ | | |   |        |
|      |DEL|END|DN |LK |   |   |<- | ->| | | v |   |        |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|        |PRT|SCL|PAU|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |      |   |
|        |SC |LK |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |      |   |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|     |    |    |                      |    |    |    |     |
|     |    |    |                      |    |    |    |     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------


Of course, my plan of a keyboard is not a real keyboard, so it's not actually competition for the Miniguru. But maybe Lowpoly might take this concept under advisement, and use it as an inspiration for the "Miniguru Ultralight" or something like that.

Offline maxlugar

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« Reply #24 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 20:38:18 »
Quote from: ch_123;155214
You should join forces with that angry German guy.


Are you referring to our friend lal?   :)

What up with them angry Germans & wacko Dutch boys anyway?

OK, just kidding, I love the German and Dutch people, but there is a special place in my heart for the Japanese.   Close your eyes and imagine a world without the Happy Hacking Professional 2 keyboard and Godzilla.  Yikes!
« Last Edit: Sun, 31 January 2010, 21:43:45 by maxlugar »
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Offline HaaTa

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« Reply #25 on: Sun, 31 January 2010, 21:28:03 »
Quote from: maxlugar;155247

OK, just kidding, I love the German and Dutch people, but there is a special place in my heart for the Japanese.   Close your eyes and imagine a world without the Happy Hacking Professional 2 keyboard and Godzilla.  Yikes!


Hahaha, yes, the Japanese are a special kind of people; in so many bizarre and awesome ways.
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #26 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 05:32:03 »
I read about how the Happy Hacking keyboard puts all the functions around the home row and that seems interesting to me. I bet it would go much better, however, with a trackpoint. That way, you don't have to move your hands off the home row for pointing.
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #27 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 06:56:30 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;155277
I bet it would go much better, however, with a trackpoint.


And, of course, Lowpoly's Miniguru keyboard... includes a trackpoint. So the ultimate is coming.

Offline bsvP585hUO2Y6

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Re: Happy Hacking Keyboard usability question
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 07:31:10 »
exia wrote on 5997 September 1993:

> How do you people even use this keyboard?

The answer to this question is given in the product name: It's a
keyboard for hackers.

> it is missing the arrow keys.

Real hackers don't need them.  For navigating, they use either h/j/k/l
in vi's command mode or control-f/-b/-p/-n in Emacs.

> it is missing the function keys

For real hackers, function keys are just bloat.  Same as those useless
"multimedia" keys on contemporary consumer[1] boards.  In fact, real
hackers did listen to their tunes via a R-2R resistor network connected
to their computer's parallel port back when the word multimedia was not
invented yet.

> it is missing the home/end/pageup/pagedown/delete keys

Real hackers don't need them. They either use control-f/b, 0 and $ in vi
or control-v/-a/-e and /alt-v in Emacs.

> i find it to many keys are missing to be of practical long term day to
> day use.

You are not a real hacker.

> yet i people love this keyboard, why?

They are real hackers.

(For the record: I don't own a HHKB)

Footnotes:
[1]  real hackers don't consume, they create

Offline ricercar

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« Reply #29 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 14:26:59 »
Ah, the meme Ellen Feiss - Parents, don't let your kids do cold medicine before acting.
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline ricercar

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« Reply #30 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 14:46:01 »
Quote
Errol Morris ...  edited it carefully. He's no fool and has a wicked sense of humor.


Fricking awesome! You wouldn't know it was the same drugs.
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #31 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 17:12:56 »
Quote from: ripster;155399
Notice the difference?

Yeah, man, she's like saying when you own a Mac it makes the sun shine so's you can do your work at the beach man, yeah, wow. Groovy.

What has she got against Airplane movies???
« Last Edit: Mon, 01 February 2010, 17:24:24 by Rajagra »

Offline elbowglue

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« Reply #32 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 17:16:40 »
I think they auditioned her, thought she made for good "relaxed, layed back TV"... but then they were like, I know, give her two vicodin and try it all over again, now we'll get the vibe we want!
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Offline kishy

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« Reply #33 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 17:23:57 »
Quote from: elbowglue;155445
the vibe we want!


"Special", I'll take it...

Seriously, is either version of that an actual Apple commercial? If so they must have judged Canadians as being too likely to laugh at her or something; she's nowhere to be found on Canadian TV.
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #34 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 17:24:23 »
I don't get this commercial...A person who didn't know too much about computers decided to spend thousands on something which is less reliable and, chances are, of lower quality.  A Mac keyboard for typing...now that's downright disgusting.
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Offline ricercar

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« Reply #35 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 18:11:37 »
The first one ripster posted was aired on US TV.
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline exia

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« Reply #36 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 18:13:51 »
Quote from: Ranma13;155198
As much as I don't like exia, I have to agree with him. As a .NET programmer (meaning I have to use Visual Studio), I use the function keys , arrow keys, and home and end keys very often. The lack of these keys wouldn't be such a big deal, except that the function key is placed all the way to the right, and all of these special keys require the right hand to press. As a result, I find myself pressing the function key with my pinky and then using my index finger to hit the key I want. It's pretty uncomfortable, especially when I want to hit the home and end keys because I have to stretch out my fingers.

I know what you're thinking, what about using the DIP switch that changes the Windows key into the function key? Unfortunately, I use the Windows key pretty extensively, so that's not really an option.

So in the end, the HHKB is definitely not for me. I like the size though (and detachable USB cord and hub) and I can see someone who spends their time extensively in a terminal really liking this keyboard.


wait, you don't like me? why? or are you just saying that to try and impress your geekhack "friends"?

Offline kishy

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« Reply #37 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 18:16:35 »
Quote from: ricercar;155476
The first one ripster posted was aired on US TV.

...but that's the worse one!

LOL
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Offline ricercar

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« Reply #38 on: Mon, 01 February 2010, 18:23:56 »
Quote from: exia;155477
wait, you don't like me? why? or are you just saying that to try and impress your geekhack "friends"?


You probably need to rephrase that. The geekhackers with friends are the ones who aren't trying to impress anyone.
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #39 on: Tue, 02 February 2010, 01:15:48 »
Quote from: ripster;155521
I've seen Apple Ads while in Canada.


For those who do not recognize the photograph, it is a still of actors portraying the recurring characters Bob and Doug McKenzie in a comedy sketch on the Canadian comedy show SCTV. This TV show is notable for adding the word "hoser" to the English language.

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #40 on: Tue, 02 February 2010, 07:47:45 »
I loved SCTV. I thought it was better, in many ways, than SNL.  Over Xmas vacation, my GF took my to see the Second City in Chicago for my birthday.  It was a blast.
 
For a little fun (and some irony), I suggested "a Dodge Stratus" when the troupe asked the crowd for topics during an improv set.  They asked for things worth $100; the "Dodge Stratus" suggestion had the actors laughing for about 2 min. before they were able to start.  The ironic thing was I stole that from one of my favorite SNL skits.
« Last Edit: Tue, 02 February 2010, 07:52:32 by itlnstln »


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« Reply #41 on: Tue, 02 February 2010, 14:35:08 »
I don't get that channel in because I don't shell out $100 each month for cable TV.
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