Rarekeyboardstore Issue

[didjamatic]

I bought an Industrial Model M for $122 shipped from Rarekeyboardstore (Brian O'Neil) and when I received it I discovered many of the keys were damaged.

I emailed him and explained what was on the keys.  I would have been content with him sending out another set of caps and exchanging them but he said to return it and they would either repair it and return to me or give me a full refund.  

You could see some of the damage in the original photos but it looked like dirt or dust.  Since the auction said it was in "Perfect Working Condition"  to me, perfect does not include keyboards with damage to 25% of the keys.

The entire top row, caps lock, ctrl and many others were either scuffed or gouged like this and it was deep into the plastic.  Most were on the corners and edges of the keys, but some had gouges into the faces of the keys.

It's one thing to find a board like this in a junk pile or flea market and salvage it, but this was someone selling it as "Perfect" I sent the keyboard back at my cost, so I was out of pocket $140 at this point.

I was debating on whether to ask for a refund or to ask for the key caps to be replaced.  The package board got back to them faster than I expected so I hadn't replied to tell them what I had decided yet and I received an email for a partial refund of only $91 with the following comments in paypal:

"Customer sent this keyboard back saying that there was damage to the keys and there is none. Base on this - I am only refunding the selling price less a 10% re-stocking fee."

Then he re-listed it for $91 + shipping and has not replied to my last email.

I'm out $50 for his misrepresentation and mistakes at this point and I never agreed to his resolution.

I'm sorry that I have defended his reputation on this forum because if he can do this to me, someone who he has clearly wronged.  I feel safe to assume he has done it to others and will continue to do so.

[microsoft windows]

I'm starting not to like that guy. I did notice that he was jacking up his prices by a lot. He has no business charging over $100 for any industrial 101-key Model M, unless it was new-in-the-box. Industrial M's in good shape tend to be worth about $30-$50.

At the bottom of his page, I just love this: "* WE SPEND A GREAT DEAL OF TIME REFURBISHING THESE KEYBOARDS AND ASK FOR A VERY LOW PRICE. *" What a crook.

[didjamatic]

The dark marks on the top corners are deep scuffs into each key cap and they won't wash off, I tried and apparently so did they.  Imagine turning a key cap upside down and running back and forth on dirt covered course grit sand paper.

He's not responding to me, nor acknowledging the damage to the key caps and only gave me a partial refund, so I'm not very confident in him fixing it and returning it to me at this point.

[ch_123]

Oh boy, time for me to grab some popcorn and a sixpack...

[microsoft windows]

He had no business charging you $100 for that keyboard though. He's just trying to gouge his customers' wallets. If I were you, I'd threaten him with some ugly feedback if he doesn't repair that keyboard, as he seems to take his reputation quite seriously.

[didjamatic]

MSWindows, I didn't have a prob with the price if the board was Perfect as stated but it wasn't.

Had he simply said, oh yeah, that does look bad let me swap the caps out and send it back... or had he said sorry about the mishap, he'res your refund.  I would have been ok with that.  I would even be ok with paying for the return shipping, which should be the person who was in error that pays for it, but I'm fine with that, but he didn't even refund the full auction price, charging me a restocking fee?

If you open the auction link you can see the marks on the F keys if you look really closely.  But this is something I thought must be dirt or dust that I could wash off, because I trusted the seller, have bought from him multiple times and never had issues... and he said it was in perfect working condition.

[Mental Hobbit]

Complain to ebay/paypal? Don't forget to mention that he doesn't reply to your mails. I know they don't like that.

[didjamatic]

I will give him more time to reply, if it's not resolved between us, then I will escalate as necessary.  But it really burns me that he just relisted it, did the partial refund and didn't contact me at all to see if that was acceptable.  

FYI - I haven't been rude or inconsiderate in any communications with him.

[kishy]

I think we know where I stand on this sort of thing.

They may be good products, he may take good care in most cases, but I've got beef with his customer service and it looks like I'm not the only one.

That's my "one" for this thread...feel free to disregard it, just as long as it doesn't go the direction the last few did I'm happy.

[microsoft windows]

What bothers me is ths guy is charging $100 for a $40 keyboard and providing disreputable customer service. If he did that to me, he would get a nice, low rating and his reputation down the tube. It is the seller's duty to provide a good service to his customers.

[didjamatic]

Well, I'm not sure if it's an email I sent him or if someone contacted him to say I had posted this but he has issued a refund to me, including shipping.  So I'm only out $17.xx for return shipping which I can live with.

Though he's hot headed and pretty emotional, at least he came through in the end.  Though with some back handed remarks.

Based on his comments, he wants me to post his response here so I will.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Brian's response 1:

Okay pal, in looking at your photos, I find your explaination of damage to be quite comical at best. You know if you had a problem with 3 keys on the keyboard, you could of very easily handled this like an adult and simply emailed me and said - "Hey Brian, this keyboard has 3 bad keys, can you send me some replacement" - and just like that it would of been handled. But instead, you have to be all cryptic and send me an email telling me my keyboard looks like its been ran over and dragged acrossed the ground. So now your playing games and sending the thing back and threatning to slam me on geekhack. Here's whats gonna happen, I will give you the full refund ONLY. If you think I am going to refund your return shipping - your nuts, there was not one good reason for this keyboard to be returned. And go ahead - talk all kinds of **** about me on geekhack! My REAL friends there know I am a stand up guy and that I am always FAIR with my customers. Anmd further, I get and will continue to get the rare keyboards that no one else has, so if you think what you have to say will put me out of business, well then my friend - show the forum what kind of a trouble maker your are. Have a nice day, I will process the rest of your refund when I get home.

Brian's Response 2:
Just wanted to say one more thing, you did buy a REFURBISHED keyboard, you realize this don't you?? not every keyboard comes out perfect, but this one is certainly sweet and for you to make such a big deal about 3 scratched keys is a joke! I am not the bad guy here - you are, for the way you went about handling this whole thing! I don't suppose you will post this comment on geekhack - now will you there bud???

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[microsoft windows]

Professional. Just professional. I stand by Kishy even more now.

[kishy]

*ding ding ding* the bells of vindication are ringing, can you hear them too?

I'm glad it worked out for you, didjamatic. I will however suggest that you may have only made the progress you did because you posted publicly.

Alright, so it wasn't just ONE in this thread...but two is close enough.

[ocdonkb]

I emailed him and explained what was on the keys...

At this point, I'd say you should show us this email you sent him.

[ricercar]

At this point, I'd say you should show us this email you sent him.

/me nods. This is what i was thinking.

[exia]

shoulda got your keyboard at clickykeyboards. but it serves you right for buying a model M non space saver, the only model M keyboard worth buying is the MODEL M SPACE SAVER.

you should have bought your keyboard at elitekeyboards, buying new is worth it.

[Chao]

Well now. I had always wondered the circumstances of the red text in Kishy's sig. I guess this explains it a bit.

[kishy]

Oops, yes, that's right (re: displaying the messages sent to him). May as well do it screenshot style like I did. For those who never saw that original nightmare of a thread, it was indeed blown out of proportion...I won't throw blame around but I will say I didn't want it getting out of line like it did.

[didjamatic]

At this point, I'd say you should show us this email you sent him.

Here is what I wrote to him.  I attached the 3 images that I linked in this post.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please see attached images.  The F row keys are all worn on the edges that cannot be cleaned off because it is wear, not dirt.  The Control key has a gouge in it, the left Tab key does as well.  If you look closely across the keyboard you will see there are many keys that are damaged.  I have many Model M's in my collection and none have keys like this.

I am into this keyboard over $140 because I have paid for shipping in 2 directions.  

A partial refund of $91 is taking $50 out of my pocket.  Since the damage was clearly visible in person but was not disclosed in the acution, the issue was not mine and therefore I should be receiving a full refund plus shipping cost.  If the issue was my fault or I "changed my mind", then I would fully expect to receive a partial refund.

I buy dozens of keyboards per month, am very active in the geekhack and other online communities and am very surprised you would treat a customer this way.  Even after I have gone to bat, defending your reputation in online forums.

I will await your response.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But now things have been worked out.

[mp29k]

shoulda got your keyboard at clickykeyboards. but it serves you right for buying a model M non space saver, the only model M keyboard worth buying is the MODEL M SPACE SAVER.

you should have bought your keyboard at elitekeyboards, buying new is worth it.

Isn't rarekeyboard store the ebay storefront for clickykeyboards.com?


and I just realized he recommended that the OP buy his Model M Spacesaver from 2 different stores simultaneously... and one of them being a store that doesn't even sell IBM boards.  

[microsoft windows]

I find it very hard to believe that brian sold you a keyboard that, according to your description, was hit multiple times by someone wielding a sledgehammer. On the only photo which is not out of focus I can see a scuff on the Ctrl key. What I can believe is a 20+ year keyboard with three minor scuffs on the keys, in fact it would be hard to find such a keyboard without any imperfections unless it is NIB. Hey, I had an Alt key with a minor scuff once, bought from ebay. Know what I did? I replaced it. It was an antique you know, not new. So, hmm, either you have been very dramatic and rarekeyboardstore is right, or rarekeyboardstore (which does not have a reputation for ripping people off with damaged boards, to say the least) sold a keyboard damaged to an extend I have never seen before, yet it is not visible in the photos..

Of course he's pretty emotional. He's not some guy working for a big company where they forgot to care about the product or customer. This is his shop. A site like geekhack can be good for business, but on the other hand I guess it is pretty lame to get customers who use it to threaten you. Did you really use that in an email?

PS: Reality check.. $100+ is the normal price for an Industrial 1390653 and $122 shipped is on the low side for a clean board. Good luck finding one for a lower price. Or NIB.

For a long time, I saw Brian selling his Industrials for $35 plus shipping. Then, when he ran low on them, he jacked up the price just to get more profit. Call that honest?

If he did not fully refund you, give him a good, low rating. Disgraceful customer support and product in poor shape. Even if it's just the key caps, they should have been in mint condition for a $100 Industrial 101.

[kishy]

For a long time, I saw Brian selling his Industrials for $35 plus shipping. Then, when he ran low on them, he jacked up the price just to get more profit. Call that honest?

If he did not fully refund you, give him a good, low rating. Disgraceful customer support and product in poor shape. Even if it's just the key caps, they should have been in mint condition for a $100 Industrial 101.

I'd say that, based on rarity (or perceived rarity), the board is worth between 50-100 even in somewhat poor condition (funny what ugly coloured plastic can do to value). The key to it all is presenting it as what it is, and "perfect" is not a subjective term...it's either perfect or it's not. That, and the quality of replies received, seems to be the OP's issue with what happened (and so it should be; certainly the OP would have no issue with it had the board been clearly presented as what it is, how it is).

This guy has more than enough parts around to swap in 'perfect' condition keycaps and there's no reason why he shouldn't have,

[microsoft windows]

I would never purchase from a seller who treats customers with problems like crap like that guy.

[kishy]

I would never purchase from a seller who treats customers with problems like crap like that guy.

I'd give him a shot if he'd start getting the point that the customer always comes first and the seller doesn't get to act like god of the transaction.

There are, of course, other conditions too...like a) a product I want and b) a price I can justify. Remember, I'm the guy getting M5-2s for $22 and M13s for $12, so even if I found the price to be fair it would be dumb to pay it in my case.

[pfink]

Isn't rarekeyboard store the ebay storefront for clickykeyboards.com?

No, clickykeyboards.com is run by a guy named (I think) Brandon Ermita, rarekeyboardstore on eBay is Brian O'Neil.

[didjamatic]

Webwit, I know you are fond of Brian O'Neil and a good customer, as was I before this.  I never said anything about a sledgehammer, or the expectation that it be NIB.  It was his description that used the word Perfect, which it wasn't.  It takes a lot to scuff up keys like this was and being drug across the floor was the only way I can think of that could scuff up the edges of the whole top row, as I stated in email.

I did state I was on geekhack and other forums because I have defended his reputation in this forum, which is very different than threatening.  Plus I don't make threats, I act.  Threatening isn't my style.

And for the record, I was never complaining about the price.

I think some of this came down to someone else working with him that was dropping the ball or miscommunicating with him.  It took extra effort but in the end I'm fine with the resolution - not with how I got to it, but the resolution is fine with me.

[mp29k]

 It was his description that used the word Perfect, which it wasn't.  

I beleive the listing said "In perfect working order" (correct me if I am wrong), rather than "perfect".

I would attribute his description to mean that the keyboard worked 100%, and not that it was 100% aesthetically perfect.

[itlnstln]

No, clickykeyboards.com is run by a guy named (I think) Brandon Ermita, rarekeyboardstore on eBay is Brian O'Neil.

Damn, your name must start with a "B" to sell quality keyboards.
 
Brian O'Neal - rarekeyboardstore
Brandon Ermita - clickykeyboards
Brian [Last Name Here] - Elitekeyboards

[ocdonkb]

Damn, your name must start with a "B" to sell quality keyboards.
 
Brian O'Neal - rarekeyboardstore
Brandon Ermita - clickykeyboards
Brian [Last Name Here] - Elitekeyboards

psst, they're the same person.

The world-wide keyboard conspiracy continues...

[Rajagra]

It was his description that used the word Perfect, which it wasn't.

In a situation like this you need to get your facts clear. He never said it was perfect. He did, however, say it was beautiful, which is where your complaint should lie.

[exia]

Damn, your name must start with a "B" to sell quality keyboards.
 
Brian O'Neal - rarekeyboardstore
Brandon Ermita - clickykeyboards
Brian [Last Name Here] - Elitekeyboards

*gasp* you don't know his last name? you need to place an order at elitekeyboards right away, it is unthinkable for a geekhacker to have never bought anything from elitekeyboards

yes, they are all the same person

[skriefal]

Damn, your name must start with a "B" to sell quality keyboards.
 
Brian O'Neal - rarekeyboardstore
Brandon Ermita - clickykeyboards
Brian [Last Name Here] - Elitekeyboards

You forgot Bob Tibbets at Northgate-Keyboard-Repair.com.  

[msiegel]

Miss Buclina Keyboard.

early glamour shot




xt or at?

[cmr]

I beleive the listing said "In perfect working order" (correct me if I am wrong), rather than "perfect".

I would attribute his description to mean that the keyboard worked 100%, and not that it was 100% aesthetically perfect.

i have to agree, perfect working order applies to all kinds of horrifically ugly things. it would have been proper to include cosmetic damage in the description but it certainly does sound like this board is in "perfect working order".

[elservo]

I think she's a purdy board!  A couple dings would be expected when it's that old and used, I would think.

[ch_123]

Well that settles it.
If MW is picking a side, the argument must be flawed by prove of empirical evidence.

Coming up next: The two cheapest people on the forum about what is the going price for an IBM Industrial.

Ripster, am I allowed a QFT moment here?

$92 seems pretty good for the rarer silver metal badged ones.

Exactly, the $40 figure is usually what his 1394946s go for, not the 1390653s which usually go for far more. Unless of course the seller is an idiot in which case they're going to be in terrible shape.

[alpslover]

For a long time, I saw Brian selling his Industrials for $35 plus shipping. Then, when he ran low on them, he jacked up the price just to get more profit. Call that honest?

no, that's called capitalism.  it is not dishonest for him to charge whatever he wants.  if you don't like it, don't buy it.  it would only be dishonest if there were deception involved, like if he put a $35 price tag on it but billed you for $135.

[alpslover]

In a situation like this you need to get your facts clear. He never said it was perfect. He did, however, say it was beautiful, which is where your complaint should lie.

beauty is a highly subjective term, though.  and something can be 'beautiful' yet still have flaws.

[ch_123]

For a long time, I saw Brian selling his Industrials for $35 plus shipping. Then, when he ran low on them, he jacked up the price just to get more profit. Call that honest?

Ever wonder why Gold is worth more than Iron?

Read This.

[microsoft windows]

It's not the most honest thing to rip people off on keyboards.

[elservo]

If I could get over 100 bucks for something, I'd charge that much for it.  *shrug*

[ch_123]

It's not the most honest thing to rip people off on keyboards.

Screenshots of Brian selling 1390653s for $35, or it didn't happen.

[microsoft windows]

Ok. Here you go. I was a little off in price, but they're still close.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130337411544
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140349901484
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140363570796

He almost doubled his price on these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130348900695

[ch_123]

Sir, you are an imbecile.

You are comparing three completely different keyboards -

1394946 - Very common Industrial model.
1390653 - Much more rare, older model.
41G3600 - One of the rarest IBMs going.

If something is rare, it commands a higher price. End of discussion. The last time I remember seeing him sell a 1390653, it was in the $80-90 region. Then again, his prices vary greatly depending on availability and condition.

I have no doubts that the OP had genuine issues with BON, but airing it out in public only serves to attract the attention of everyone who wants a good keyboard for $5, and valid issues get buried under a sea of ****e.

EDIT: That wasn't direct at Webwit. =P

[kishy]

Just because the figure "$5" has become associated with me, I'll say this: that's not my expectation.

That figure was based on the fact that the first mechanical keyboard I ever paid for was my M5-2, meaning that all prior mechanicals (M0116, M3501, Laser, Leading Edge, '93 1391401, '93 1391401, '93 1391401, '8...oh whatever, you get it) had totaled "under $5". That's where my magic $5 ceiling came from, rather than a "demand for $5 keyboards" which is what's being suggested that I had done more and more lately.

[microsoft windows]

I didn't even pay for my M5-2; I picked it out of a garbage can at work.