Any way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?

[mp29k]

Has anyone found out a way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry switches?   I know they are designed to not be bottomed out, but when I get really rolling, I find it hard not to, and I naturally just bottom out certain keystrokes, like when I use enter, or when I am Alt-Tabbing between windows.  I am sure it is because I am so used to rubber domes, but regardless, it would be nice to not have such a jarring bottom out on such a nice switch.

[itlnstln]

Damn, you must be typing pretty hard.  The only way I can think of dampening them, off the top of my head, is to dismantle the switch and add a rubber washer around the base of the spring.  You would lose some switch travel (and a lot of time) by doing this, though.

[mp29k]

Damn, you must be typing pretty hard.  

I seriously doubt I am the only one who bottoms out cherry blue and browns.

[itlnstln]

I seriously doubt I am the only one who bottoms out cherry blue and browns.

Oh, I agree. I still bottom out mine on occassion, especially when typing fast. I was referring more to the "jarring" part than anything.

[mp29k]

Oh, I agree. I still bottom out mine on occassion, especially when typing fast. I was referring more to the "jarring" part than anything.

Maybe "jarring" was a little strong, but can you agree that the switch would benefit from a softer landing?

I wonder if you could add a foam sheet under all the keys, cutting out a square for each switch?  

Does anyone know how close to the plate the keycap comes when the switch bottoms?

[Mental Hobbit]

You can punch holes in some thin foam or rubber sheet, cut them out and put them inside the keycaps. A common office hole puncher works for that. I found the shorter travel more irritating than the hard landing though when I experimented with black Cherries a while ago.

[keyb_gr]

I wonder if you could add a foam sheet under all the keys, cutting out a square for each switch?

 
That's how it was done on my Tandberg board with MLs.

Does anyone know how close to the plate the keycap comes when the switch bottoms?

According to the datasheet, the mounting height of MX switches up to the stem is 11.6 mm. Subtract about 4 mm of travel.

Otherwise I'd say you eventually get used to it to some degree.

[alpslover]

Maybe "jarring" was a little strong, but can you agree that the switch would benefit from a softer landing?

no.  i personally like the hard landing.

I wonder if you could add a foam sheet under all the keys, cutting out a square for each switch?

yes, but you need to get the thickness just right - not thick enough, and it won't do anything to soften the landing.  too thick, and you eat into the key travel.  i've seen versions of dell at101's that had thin foam strips underneath certain keys to soften the landing.

Does anyone know how close to the plate the keycap comes when the switch bottoms?

that depends on the keycaps.  on my filco tenkeyless, there looks to be about a 2.5mm gap (just eyeing it).

[devilcm3]

maybe use a paper...cut some square holes with the exact size of the cherry switches and then just place it on the bottom...

[nanu]

I tend to bottom out even half a year later, which makes me think maybe Cherry MX browns aren't for me but I doubt I could get a quieter mechanical keyboard (silence being my preference).

I used 2mm foam sheet from the craft store.  These donuts slip onto each keycap.  It noticeably shortens the throw so you will likely bottom out always, by doing this mod.


I do wonder about a softer and/or thinner dampening material...

[bsvP585hUO2Y6]

mp29k wrote on 6001 September 1993:

> Has anyone found out a way to dampen the bottom out on Cherry
> switches? I know they are designed to not be bottomed out, but when I
> get really rolling, I find it hard not to,

Sounds like you want to try clear Cherry switches.  When typing on my
G80-3000LQCDE-2, I really like the fact that they are impossible to
bottom out.

[itlnstln]

mp29k wrote on 6001 September 1993:

Wow, I didn't think it was that long ago; it seemed like it was just a few hours ago when mp29k asked that question.
 
 
1993 must have been a leap year.  It looks like they had to extend it almost 16.5 years to make up for some major space/time continuum infraction.
 
 
Coincidently, if you add 16.34 years to 9/1/1993, it comes out roughly to today's date.  It looks like you forgot to carry the "1."

[microsoft windows]

I've always wondered what was behind the whole "1993" thing. Guess I'm not the only one stuck in the nineties with technology...

[itlnstln]

You're right.  Everytime bsv quotes it's from some unspecified September date in 1993.  Craziness.

[bsvP585hUO2Y6]

It's not just some Septemper, it's the neverending one.
Each time someone doesn't know about it, I feel a little bit older...

[kppanic]

I seriously doubt I am the only one who bottoms out cherry blue and browns.

Second that.

I type faster and more accurately when I bottom out...

[mp29k]

Lots of options.  I've seen:

- Rubber O rings on the stem
- Japanese dude that put clay or some plastic goop into the key and then baked it
- Sorbathane (where did I put that sheet?)
- Felt would be good

I just stick the keyboard on a mousepad.  That makes a difference.

Rip,
how would adding rubber o rings to the stem help?  Wouldn't that just prevent the keycap from going on all the way?  I would prefer an elegant solution like this, but I don't think this would do anything.

The impression I have when the key bottoms out is that it is internally in the switch that is causing the bottom out.  Therefore, I figure the only way to properly dampen would be to fill the space between the keycap and the plate with some sort of absorbent material, like closed cell foam.  If the estimate posted by someone up thread is right @ ~2.5mm between the cap and the plate, 3.5-4mm foam would probably be perfect.  

Does anyone else have an impression, or actual working knowledge of that is actually bottoming out when the key meets the end of it's travel?

[mp29k]

I tend to bottom out even half a year later, which makes me think maybe Cherry MX browns aren't for me but I doubt I could get a quieter mechanical keyboard (silence being my preference).

I used 2mm foam sheet from the craft store.  These donuts slip onto each keycap.  It noticeably shortens the throw so you will likely bottom out always, by doing this mod.

Show Image

I do wonder about a softer and/or thinner dampening material...

Can you share more detail about how this works?  Does the foam sit around the whole switch assembly, or just around the plus (+) shaped stem under where the cap attaches?  Does this prevent the key from going on all the way.

[elbowglue]

PCB dampens cherry switch bottoming out noise better than metal plate.  But of course this was not the question that was asked.  I'm interested in this thread too, wonder what the answer is to this...  Putting a mousepad under the keyboard actually does make the noise of the keyboard less (I'm testing on this on a ricecar G86).

[kriminal]

weird i bottom out every time i press a key on my cherry brown board. but then again im not a good typist anyway. interesting O ring tech.

[itlnstln]

weird i bottom out every time i press a key on my cherry brown board. but then again im not a good typist anyway. interesting O ring tech.

Bottoming out is a personal preference thing, not the hallmark of a good typist.  Some people don't like to bottom out for trauma reasons while for others, it's a speed thing.  I don't bottom out much anymore just on accident.  I don't try not to, though.

[mp29k]

After seeing this mod, I want to buy a bunch of o-rings, and some double-shots and make the ultimate (for me) Filco with brown cherries.

I think I want to use a slimmer o-ring though, so I don't reduce the travel too much... I wouldn't actually mind reducing the travel a little bit, but would still want a little space between the actuation point and the o-ring bottoming.

[nanu]

Yes, the issue with making the cushioning thinner is that there's less of a dampening effect when bottoming.  And making it thicker makes bottoming reached earlier. And having it too thick will close the actuation window.

Rubber is dense already so having it be thinner would make it cushion less, so that's why felt or foam is suggested since it compresses more. It's hard to find thin foam however, because it wouldn't hold up to wear. I just tried felt on the cursor keys and I'm liking it over foam.

[ocdonkb]

More details on the O-Ring method.

Thanks Ripsters. This picture below, is exactly what I want done in my Filco. Although not sure where you'd get such things, I suppose I'll visit some plumbing supply stores this weekend?

[kishy]

Actually, those look similar to the rubber rings one with stretched piercings uses to retain their jewelry (and they're available in a wide variety of sizes).

Not a look I like or have, btw, just saying you could probably obtain such rings at a body art store or w/e they're called.

[ch_123]

Show Image

Christ, I remember those things. I can't remember which ones I had, but they were definitely animal-coded ones alright.

[mp29k]

3/16" size on ebay... 200 of them should do a tenkeyless and 104 board!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200414313961&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=WXS%3F&GUID=682d523411f0a0bae2d1bbe1ffe84cfb&itemid=200414313961&ff4=263602_263622#ht_500wt_956

[mp29k]

Bingo.

These should be just about perfect.  100 3/16" for $3.50 for heavy

Show Image

I just saved some High Schooler from getting beat up.

Do you think Heavy are the best?   What weight were the ones you used?  I am trying to take up as little of the key distance as possible without feeling that hard plasticky clack at the bottom.

[mp29k]

I dunno what is best.   Nobody can even agree what switch is best or whether Cherry Browns are noisy or quiet.  The RAMS are considered Heavy.  Here's the whole product catalog for the analytical types.  Look at the "zoo packs".

They're cheap.  Order Light/Medium/Heavy and report back.

Next time my kid goes to the orthodontist I'm stealing a few rabbit packs when the dentist turns his back.

Now I just need to find dark gray (or black I guess) double shots!

[nanu]

They're cheap.

Ordered some 3.5oz and 4.5oz -force 3/16" latex bands

[elbowglue]

Ya'll rock.  My wife may be wondering why orthodontic rubber bands show up in the house soon.  Love it guys.

Anyone got some before and after audio clips?

[itlnstln]

Does it reduce the key travel much?

[itlnstln]

I go twice a year.  31 years old and still no cavities.

[JBert]

Hahahaha!  This works.  Had the idea long ago but I've never gotten around to trying it since I just use a Topre if I want quiet.

Pluses:

- Cheap.  After you've paid the $5k that is.  I'd just steal them from your local orthodontist.  They often keep some outside the office.  
- Soft rubber so they give a nice Topre soft landing and keep things quiet
- Right diameter - you really want thin ones

Downside:

- A little oversize (at least these Ram ones) so I had to put it on with the keyboard upside down.  Look for the Rabbit or Impalla for a smaller diameter.
- You may get arrested for stealing from orthodontists or beating up High Schoolers.  That's what you get for believing what you read on the internet.

The "orthodontist method" sounded so good I immediately tried it out on my model F AT (still had some bags of 9.5mm or 3/8" rings). These are exactly the width of the barrel, hence when you put them in a cap they'll rest on the barrel when you turn your keyboard proper side up.

Sadly, it ought not to be: some keys stop activating. I think this is related to the fact that I swapped keycaps to make a colemak keyboard. Still, it might happen with keycaps in their qwerty positions. In the end, I only modded the modifier keys as those are the most likely to get mashed hard (take Escape or backspace for example).
On the other hand, it might do wonders for a model M. Then again, who bottoms out on such a "stiff" keyboard?

These larger rings seem to work for Cherries, only they're harder to keep in place.

[ch_123]

Noise modding a Model F is like putting one of those electronic speed limiters on a racing car - it misses the point in the most excruciating way possible.

[JBert]

Ehr, I'm not talking about noise here, rather it was about the altering the hard landing on the F. The sound is fine as it is.

The orthodontist method seems to work nicely on all my "grey keys" - at least these keep activating when there is a rubber band on top of the barrel.

[Rajagra]

I always put some gripper mat under my keyboards now. Makes any keyboard sound better IMO. Yes, even the Topres.

Messy example below, but you can cut it to match the size of the keyboard, or even attach it (semi) permanently if you like.

It may not soften keypresses to any significant degree, but you will probably perceive it as being softer. And of course it does a fine job of keeping the keyboard in place! :smile: And it's a lot easier than modding every key.

[ch_123]

Ehr, I'm not talking about noise here, rather it was about the altering the hard landing on the F. The sound is fine as it is.

The orthodontist method seems to work nicely on all my "grey keys" - at least these keep activating when there is a rubber band on top of the barrel.

Oh right.

Oh, and what's the deal with your spacebar mod? Did it work? What is required?

[Oqsy]

I'll check my parents' house tonight or tomorrow for some orthodontic rubber bands.  I have a Model M and an MX11800 that I'll test if I find some.  I had buffalo, ram, and impala bands at different stages of my 5 year orthodontic adventure!  They had bright neon colored ones that all the girls (and some of the guys) were really crazy over when I had my braces.  I always opted for the clear or gray bands.  Even then I was boring :|

[ricercar]

Brace yourself. My teeth have always been perfect.

[JBert]

Oh right.

Oh, and what's the deal with your spacebar mod? Did it work? What is required?

Not much is required, you only have to take apart your keyboard.

I've posted the whole thing as Model F Improvement: Space bar mod

[ocdonkb]

I was just at a local hardware store, and picked up some rubber o-ring's, similar in size to these on ebay

It definitely helps reducing the annoying "spring pinging" of my Filco Brown. There's also these that's a bit thicker that I imagine will provide even more cushion on the down stroke.

Yes, it does reduce key-travel(obviously), but I think this is actually a good thing on the Filco.

The other thing it does is it makes the keys feel more "substantial". So overall, I'd say this is a Good Mod.

[Frawg]

ocdonkb, besides shortening the travel, how does it feel bottoming out? I ordered some 3/16 medium bands, but looks like Rip didn't have good results. May spring for the O-rings if they're nice.

[ocdonkb]

ocdonkb, besides shortening the travel, how does it feel bottoming out? I ordered some 3/16 medium bands, but looks like Rip didn't have good results. May spring for the O-rings if they're nice.

The sound of bottoming out is different, not sure who said this first(perhaps ripster) but it's definitely more thocky, than clicky now.

I'd say w/o the o-ring, the Filco bottoming out is harsh and final. With the o-ring, it's a tiny bit more refined. I think this would work better if the rubber were a bit softer, with a little bit more give. The medium bands you ordered might actually be better.

[elservo]

 I'm in the middle of creating a Disco LED Trackball

You can't dream this dude up.  Love this guy.

[ocdonkb]

Alright another update, as I've now clearly become obsessed with this...

received my 3/16" medium Orthodontic elastics. These do nothing. They're too thin/soft to really make any difference.

I think the o-ring's are a better choice for this application.

[JBert]

Well, I only use them to occasionally break the landing, not to make it feel comfortable to bottom out all the time. I do try to avoid bottoming out, but that is not so simple on a model F.

[intealls]

Sorry everyone for reviving an old thread, but it's probably better than creating a new one.

A couple of days ago, I started working on a way to paper-dampen the switches in the Cherry G80-3000 (Blues). I started out in Photoshop with a couple of boxes, printing them and cutting them out with an exacto-knife. The problem is that the boxes need to be aligned very precisely, otherwise they won't fit over the switches. I made multiple printouts, some fit perfectly, some were displaced by like a tenth of a millimeter per switch, resulting in the boxes to the far right of the keyboard not being placed properly. This could be attributed to my measuring, the printer not being 100% accurate, Photoshop scaling algorithms etc etc. Because of this, I hacked together a simple Java-application to draw boxes to an image with a resolution of 40 pixels per millimeter, with compensation for image -> printout eskew. It's still not perfect, but it's probably as good as I can get it (the code is pretty terrible though). Some manual adjustment is sometimes still necessary, but I blame the printer for this since it's pretty much randomly occurring.

The paper I'm using is like 0.7 mm thick (240g), so it shortens the travel somewhat, but actually leaves the rest of the switch characteristic fairly untouched. I actually prefer it to O-rings, since it reduces noise as well as 'gently' removing the clack of bottoming out. I'm also certain it makes me type lighter.

Also, paper is probably not the best material to use for this. I think a thin rubber mat (like the one in the M2) would be perfect. I just don't feel like slicing one up to try it out.

Anyway, enough blatant blar.

Sound sample!

 (first 12 presses are undampened, follow by 12 dampened as well as dampened typing)

Pics!





I kinda like the faux Rosewill effect as well.

If anyone's interested in trying this out, I could clean up the code and add support for a configuration file (so you don't have to install the JDK and recompile to change measurements).

[elef]

That's neat.
I've been experimenting with some rubber inserts in the keycaps made from some ~1mm rubber sheet I have easy access to. The results were somewhat promising (softer, quieter landing, not much travel lost), but not even enough across keys. The sheet needs to be half a mm thicker to work right in the keycaps, but even then, it's a pretty messy solution.
Your solution will surely produce better, more uniform results, with the added benefit of acting as a muffler inside the keyboard, reducing all sounds much like the pads underneath the keyboards some people use here.

I have a Filco now, and may buy an ISO G80-3000 soon, which would have the exact same layout as yours there. If I do, I will definitely pester you for a ready-for-printing image file. Maybe I'll use the 1mm rubber sheet for ultimate damping, or something a bit thinner so that I lose less of the travel.
By the way, how much biggger are the keycaps than the base of the switch? If they are, say, 3mm larger across, then there is a 1.5mm spacing on either side, which means you can afford to just make oversized cutouts for each switch (say, 0.5mm or 1mm larger than the base in all 4 directions) and still be sure all of the keycap will land on the mat. That buys you some room for error with the placement of the holes.

I'm not a fan of the rattling of the Filco, so the thicker caps on the Cherry, pcb mounting instead of plate mounting, plus a sheet inside the board and a mat underneat should work really nicely to muffle the clack-clack. I have browns in my Filco now and want blues, so these mods should at least make sure the new keyboard is not that much louder than the old one. Or so I keep telling myself.

[intealls]

That's neat.
I've been experimenting with some rubber inserts in the keycaps made from some ~1mm rubber sheet I have easy access to. The results were somewhat promising (softer, quieter landing, not much travel lost), but not even enough across keys. The sheet needs to be half a mm thicker to work right in the keycaps, but even then, it's a pretty messy solution.
Your solution will surely produce better, more uniform results, with the added benefit of acting as a muffler inside the keyboard, reducing all sounds much like the pads underneath the keyboards some people use here.

I have a Filco now, and may buy an ISO G80-3000 soon, which would have the exact same layout as yours there. If I do, I will definitely pester you for a ready-for-printing image file. Maybe I'll use the 1mm rubber sheet for ultimate damping, or something a bit thinner so that I lose less of the travel.
By the way, how much biggger are the keycaps than the base of the switch? If they are, say, 3mm larger across, then there is a 1.5mm spacing on either side, which means you can afford to just make oversized cutouts for each switch (say, 0.5mm or 1mm larger than the base in all 4 directions) and still be sure all of the keycap will land on the mat. That buys you some room for error with the placement of the holes.

I'm not a fan of the rattling of the Filco, so the thicker caps on the Cherry, pcb mounting instead of plate mounting, plus a sheet inside the board and a mat underneat should work really nicely to muffle the clack-clack. I have browns in my Filco now and want blues, so these mods should at least make sure the new keyboard is not that much louder than the old one. Or so I keep telling myself.

I'm quite certain the mat will remove almost all of the clack. It's basically gone from mine which is nice, since you can now hear the actual click of the switch. Before, the clack would pretty much drain it. It's very uniform around the letter keys, keys alongside the edge (12345 tab caps lock etc) are not perfect since the paper moves around a bit inside the board. I haven't quite figured out a way to deal with that, but I think a rubber mat would make it much less noticeable than the (fairly) stiff paper I'm using now. It probably needs to be fixed to the board in some way. The G80 shell has separators between key sections, if the key cutouts are placed with some give between sections, that would allow the mat to flex, and could be used to clamp it down. The rubber mat would most likely be awesome for this. Where do I buy one that thin??


Terribly overexposed to show the separators better.

I also don't think the reduced travel will be especially noticeable, the paper I'm using now feels like the only thing it does is make it more comfortable to bottom out and removes noise and clack.

The more accurately the cutouts are placed, the better it will be. A standard keycap is ~17mm in length, but the actual 'surface area' in which they make contact with the switch is a bit shorter. The mat will have to 'rest' on the switch somewhat... It's a bit difficult to explain, but the pic below shows about where the mat needs to be.



You can have the printout I used for this board, but before I post it I want to make sure it fits perfectly (I'm properly anal about this stuff). Also, I've only done the alphanumeric section right now, but it would be very easy to add the rest.

I also think I'll go ahead and clean up the code and add the configuration stuff. Not only because I'm probably gonna look at it in a week, and wonder just what the hell it does, but you could use it to try stuff out on your Filco, if you like. And, it's a lot of fun.


urk