Author Topic: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?  (Read 4680 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HWGuy

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 01:10:25 »
I was... foolish in not buying the MiniVan last time it was on massdrop. I made the decision based on the fact I have now four keyboards I've purchased in last few months. (I'm a very quiet, snooper on here and other places. I do a lot of research and listening - not a lot of talking)

So of course, I'm itching to do my first actual build. I have an adequate amount of experience soldering from my time repairing old PC parts and electronics, but for the life of me I can't even find one for sale (I know, stupid of me to even look).

I see that there are currently 3000~ people roughly requesting a new drop, but I haven't seen any posts anywhere on whether or not that will happen any time soon.

So I have caught the bug, I think the HHKB I bought kind of sealed the deal for me for being a keyboard enthusiast.

I want a MiniVan, how do I make it happen soon?


Offline Puddsy

  • nice
  • * Elated Elder
  • Posts: 12281
  • Location: RSTLN E
  • "Do you shovel to survive, or survive to shovel?"
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 12:39:07 »
Aquire posting rights in the classifieds and post a WTB

unless anything has changed, you need 60 posts and 2 months
QFR | MJ2 TKL | "Bulgogiboard" (Keycon 104) | ctrl.alt x GON 60% | TGR Alice | Mira SE #29 | Mira SE #34 | Revo One | z | Keycult No. 1 | First CW87 prototype | Mech27v1 | Camp C225 | Duck Orion V1 | LZ CLS sxh | Geon Frog TKL | Hiney TKL One | Geon Glare TKL



"Everything is worse, but in a barely perceptible and indefinable way" -dollartacos, after I came back from a break | "Is Linkshine our Nixon?" -NAV | "Puddsy is the Puddsy of keebs" -ns90

Offline bmmcwhirt

  • Posts: 207
  • Location: Indiana
    • KB9YEN
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 13:08:32 »
You could just pre-order one.

https://thevankeyboards.com/products/pre-order-gmk-80s-kid

You might also think about these amazing keycaps too https://thevankeyboards.com/products/lightcycle-keycap-set


Offline loud_asian

  • Posts: 592
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 13:19:18 »
You could just pre-order one.

https://thevankeyboards.com/products/pre-order-gmk-80s-kid

You might also think about these amazing keycaps too https://thevankeyboards.com/products/lightcycle-keycap-set

Both links are to minivan compatible keysets

EM7 | Nunu | Virgo | Salamander | SS AEK64

Offline merlin64

  • Posts: 1273
  • Location: Seattle, WA
    • MechMerlin
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 15:54:07 »
Generally, when you have more than 1 kid, or if your kid has lots of friends then you need to...

Ohhh that kind of minivan.
https://thevankeyboards.com/products/minivan-r4-keyboard-kit

Offline HWGuy

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 17:50:22 »
Generally, when you have more than 1 kid, or if your kid has lots of friends then you need to...

Ohhh that kind of minivan.
https://thevankeyboards.com/products/minivan-r4-keyboard-kit

I feel stupid now. I swear I went all over that website looking for it - and was unable to find it. So I was either extraordinarily tired, or just plain blind. Thank you so much!

Offline dantan

  • Posts: 288
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 05:44:04 »
Prices seem higher than they really need to be... is that $300 for just the main part no numpad and no switches?

Offline mniels

  • Posts: 164
So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 06:43:03 »
I emailed Evan last night about that with that same question.  He responded that the Minivan itself is 300, Roadkit is 150.

I thought it was a bit excessive considering the size and amount of material used, but that is just me. Price point is keeping me away from it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline sems

  • Posts: 47
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 07:17:49 »
I emailed Evan last night about that with that same question.  He responded that the Minivan itself is 300, Roadkit is 150.

I thought it was a bit excessive considering the size and amount of material used, but that is just me. Price point is keeping me away from it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Same here. You could get Exent with everything included, even a full GMK keyset for what? 275$. As much as I appreciate the woruk Evan put on this board, price point does not makes sense at all.

Offline dantan

  • Posts: 288
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 07:42:16 »
I emailed Evan last night about that with that same question.  He responded that the Minivan itself is 300, Roadkit is 150.

I thought it was a bit excessive considering the size and amount of material used, but that is just me. Price point is keeping me away from it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Same here. You could get Exent with everything included, even a full GMK keyset for what? 275$. As much as I appreciate the woruk Evan put on this board, price point does not makes sense at all.

It makes sense if you are profit minded. And if that is the case, I think we are justified in staying away. There are many good people on Geekhack to support who do not profit from helping us get better keyboards.

Offline mniels

  • Posts: 164
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 08:14:28 »
I emailed Evan last night about that with that same question.  He responded that the Minivan itself is 300, Roadkit is 150.

I thought it was a bit excessive considering the size and amount of material used, but that is just me. Price point is keeping me away from it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Same here. You could get Exent with everything included, even a full GMK keyset for what? 275$. As much as I appreciate the woruk Evan put on this board, price point does not makes sense at all.


Which is why I ordered an Exent.   :thumb:

Offline HWGuy

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 13:47:04 »
When I saw the price actually after reading no switches were included, I suddenly didn't want the keyboard anymore. Exent you say? I took a look and seems pretty unique. Maybe if the Minivan was a bit more... competitive...

There is no way, in hell, a CNC milled aluminium plate justifies the majority of the cost. My billet AR uppers and lowers don't even come CLOSE to that on a machining cost - and AR lowers and uppers have a lot more complex geometry going on.

I dunno.... suddenly I don't want it. I just don't see where the cost is, when all the labor is left to the end user.

Offline mniels

  • Posts: 164
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 14:38:17 »
When I saw the price actually after reading no switches were included, I suddenly didn't want the keyboard anymore. Exent you say? I took a look and seems pretty unique. Maybe if the Minivan was a bit more... competitive...

There is no way, in hell, a CNC milled aluminium plate justifies the majority of the cost. My billet AR uppers and lowers don't even come CLOSE to that on a machining cost - and AR lowers and uppers have a lot more complex geometry going on.

I dunno.... suddenly I don't want it. I just don't see where the cost is, when all the labor is left to the end user.

I would have been perfectly happy with this at 300 for both, maybe if they were 200 and 100.  I really like the setup with them both, being able to keep the number pad off to the side.

Granted, we don't know the cost of what went into the PCB, but I do not believe this is a new revision and it has been out for a while now.

Offline Puddsy

  • nice
  • * Elated Elder
  • Posts: 12281
  • Location: RSTLN E
  • "Do you shovel to survive, or survive to shovel?"
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 15:23:37 »
Most of the cost is the CNC case and development time.
QFR | MJ2 TKL | "Bulgogiboard" (Keycon 104) | ctrl.alt x GON 60% | TGR Alice | Mira SE #29 | Mira SE #34 | Revo One | z | Keycult No. 1 | First CW87 prototype | Mech27v1 | Camp C225 | Duck Orion V1 | LZ CLS sxh | Geon Frog TKL | Hiney TKL One | Geon Glare TKL



"Everything is worse, but in a barely perceptible and indefinable way" -dollartacos, after I came back from a break | "Is Linkshine our Nixon?" -NAV | "Puddsy is the Puddsy of keebs" -ns90

Offline HWGuy

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 20:10:48 »
I would argue that cost has to diminish over time. Development is a finite amount of effort and time placed into the R&D of a product. Initial early adopters shell out premium - which in turn is used to cover R&D costs and make up any immediate losses. Then you get the early majority and late majority, but only if your costs and perceived value are at the right levels. I could see myself spending $200-$250 on this kit that I would have to build - but only because I am an enthusiast. You have to bring your costs down once you've made your initial recovery - the best example I can give is imagine game developers never, ever, ever brought their prices down on games. That the same product that was $60 for say a AAA super duper oh wow-wee title held that price throughout a period of 10 years. The only people, most likely, who will buy that product will be your early adopters and possibly early majority.

At present - the cost associated with getting the minivan - a 40% keyboard, that you have to build yourself, with a cnc milled case - it isn't premium, it's a little absurd.

https://www.midweststeelsupply.com/store/7075aluminumplate

Let's say I'm making a lot of keyboards using aluminium ... and for some reason I'm going to use some of the best friggin' aluminium I can get. Costs to operate a CNC machine vary - but let's say you're a startup and want to own your own CNC mill - so you go used, and let's say somewhere in the ballpark of $5,000~ roughly for a CNC machine that can mill 7075-T651 (again super expensive, robust, aluminium alloy) and we'll say your budget for aluminium plate is somewhere around $5,000 in material cost. Let's assume since it's a used machine we'll need to perform maintenance too. So we'll adjust an additional ... $2,000 allowance for budgetary stuff (We're being real conservative here).

So you're $12,000 invested into Minivan's - at 300$ each for the keyboards, assuming you get ZERO deals from your alloy supplier, we're looking at roughly at 40 keyboards to make up your costs entirely and break even. After 40, you're profiting assuming all things go smoothly.


There are a lot more than 40 minivan boards out there now I'll assume...

At some point you need to bring down your profit margin, or you ultimately lose money - because customers will look elsewhere.

I bought a Vortex Core today to satiate my 40% desire. I'll return to the MiniVan when either I see a better price, or a more alluring offer in terms of what I can get for my money.

(For reference... a 12'Lx4'Wx2"D billet of 7075 aluminium is around 5 grand. This is top-tier aluminium that has no business being on a keyboard, so clearly - you'd use something much less expensive - you'd be selling at a loss if you were using 7075 as materials)

(Obviously I didn't include costs of PCB and such like that, but they're considerably smaller due to the simple circuitry involved - and the fact that there is zero labor associated with the production of the board - since it is outsourced. Not to mention, my customers will be performing the labor of soldering - so yeah, for simplicity's sake I left it out of the factors, but we'd factor that into the cost obviously if this was a more drawn out business thing.)

(I know I'm the new guy here, so who am I to assume anything related to this - but I have been a lurker for many years in various places - I just recently felt like posting. So - take my criticisms as they are, my personal opinion. Objective opinion, but my opinion nonetheless. Don't want to piss anyone off.)
« Last Edit: Sun, 19 March 2017, 20:18:19 by HWGuy »

Offline dantan

  • Posts: 288
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 22:44:44 »
HWGuy, great job with your info and your detailed breakdown!

It is obvious that someone is out to make a fat profit from his keyboard.

If he were the only guy making custom boards, we'd have to let him get away with that. but not when there is a massdrop drop practically every other day for a custom board, and there are hundreds of custom designs out there and group buys with awesome boards begging for our money.

Offline HWGuy

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 22:59:53 »
I'm not trying to be a smart ass or put him down dantan, he runs a business - business has to be worthwhile. We can't all do things out of passion - I just don't understand his price point (just considering that the only labor he has to do now is communicate between suppliers and mill the plates). I don't want to come off as rude or know-it-all.


There are a lot of great boards, definitely, and I have seen a lot of stuff I wish I had jumped on - and am now in the position to do so.

Hopefully that clears up some of my tone, and thoughts on the matter.

Offline dantan

  • Posts: 288
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 20 March 2017, 02:20:24 »
I'm not trying to be a smart ass or put him down dantan, he runs a business - business has to be worthwhile. We can't all do things out of passion - I just don't understand his price point (just considering that the only labor he has to do now is communicate between suppliers and mill the plates). I don't want to come off as rude or know-it-all.


There are a lot of great boards, definitely, and I have seen a lot of stuff I wish I had jumped on - and am now in the position to do so.

Hopefully that clears up some of my tone, and thoughts on the matter.

HWGuy, you gotta consider, on this website there are thousands of people who want to build their own boards. Eventually at least a dozen new boards get made every month. In most cases their makers have worked very hard out of passion, and for many of their custom projects, the difference between 4 buyers and 10 buyers can be like 70% lower costs for everybody.

Somebody throws $450 at a profit making business for Minivan and Roadkit, means that $450 doesn’t go towards supporting another geekhacker’s project.

That $450 could purchase a few dozen PCBs, or a dozen metal plates, or a few casings. It would help make other people’s projects much more affordable or viable.

Sure, everyone has the right to profit, but we have the right not to support them also. I am selling some stuff in classifieds now, and trying to minimize my losses. I would love to sell everything for a fat profit, but who’s going to support me?

I just wish those people with $450 to throw around could kindly buy my keycaps.

Offline HWGuy

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 20 March 2017, 02:51:52 »
Oh I was worried you were implying I was being crass in my analyzing of his price point.

I know, for me, personally, I would love to throw my money at the artisans here - because that's what many of them are - craftsmen. I'll be sure to use my wallet here as best I can. :)

Offline theillumedpanda

  • Posts: 271
  • Don't point that gun at me - I'm an unpaid intern!
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 20 March 2017, 05:01:09 »
I mean I would fully understand if that was his first real product and he simply has to refinance development and wants to make some money out of it. That wouldn't bother me at all. The fact that the MiniVan has been around for quite some time now, I just assume that he didn't have to make a huge effort for the newest version of the MiniVan. I might be wrong about this, though.

Offline dantan

  • Posts: 288
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 20 March 2017, 08:36:25 »
oh no, I loved your analysis of his price point. It really matters, because most of us won't know how much his costs are unless a ''crass smart alex'' like you  ;D made the effort to give us an informed analysis!

Offline chuckdee

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 1308
Re: So how does one go about acquiring a MiniVan?
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 20 March 2017, 10:49:06 »
I'm not trying to be a smart ass or put him down dantan, he runs a business - business has to be worthwhile. We can't all do things out of passion - I just don't understand his price point (just considering that the only labor he has to do now is communicate between suppliers and mill the plates). I don't want to come off as rude or know-it-all.


There are a lot of great boards, definitely, and I have seen a lot of stuff I wish I had jumped on - and am now in the position to do so.

Hopefully that clears up some of my tone, and thoughts on the matter.

HWGuy, you gotta consider, on this website there are thousands of people who want to build their own boards. Eventually at least a dozen new boards get made every month. In most cases their makers have worked very hard out of passion, and for many of their custom projects, the difference between 4 buyers and 10 buyers can be like 70% lower costs for everybody.

Somebody throws $450 at a profit making business for Minivan and Roadkit, means that $450 doesn’t go towards supporting another geekhacker’s project.

That $450 could purchase a few dozen PCBs, or a dozen metal plates, or a few casings. It would help make other people’s projects much more affordable or viable.

Sure, everyone has the right to profit, but we have the right not to support them also. I am selling some stuff in classifieds now, and trying to minimize my losses. I would love to sell everything for a fat profit, but who’s going to support me?

I just wish those people with $450 to throw around could kindly buy my keycaps.

Those people buy what they will.  I don't like keycaps.  The minivan, I use all the time.  It seemed perfectly reasonable to me for what was included, and Evan is a bang up guy IMO.  The price hasn't fluctuated from the beginning - this is how much I paid for R1, and glad of it.  Both of my JD45s were in the same ballpark, so not sure how far off it is.  And though those spitballs may seem perfectly correct, they're still based on supposition and don't include all facts.  Another point is that MD was a big boon to him.  He might be keeping them at MD prices so he can still use that distribution channel, which is major.  You might even ask him about the prices, to cover the assumptions.  He was very open with me about the price and what he put into it originally when I asked. 

Simple fact, if you don't like the price, don't buy.  If you do, then do so.  But don't disparage the creator.