Author Topic: Arrrrrgh! (Read 7064 times)

wolf · « **on:** Tue, 16 February 2010, 20:05:25 »

Frustration reigns supreme, here.

Trying to locate, and try out, mechanical switched machines locally - and there's not so much as a Steelseries 7G in any of the local shops.

I've wandered around the computer stores (and the big appliance/electronics outlets that sell computers as well as TVs, stereos etc) and I've even hit the second hand shops and auctioneers (in the hopes that they have an antiquated computer with an old LiteOn keyboard) but to no avail - all any of them have are rubber-dome keyboards.

It's been a learning experience - I've learned that besuited salesdroids in expensive computer stores don't like scruffy geeks inferring that their entire range of keyboards is low-end crap.

They also don't like it when you call "bull****" when they try to justify themselves by rlaiming that no one makes mechanical-switched keyboards any more.

I've also learned which places actually try to help you out by dragging out boxes of old keyboards (sadly not old enough) or have staff who know enough about product lines to answer queries without blinking stupidly.

So I wandered around looking and making enquiries - hoping that I'd be led to some secret repository where quality keyboards are hidden away from the rabble to prevent them from being drooled on - but to no avail.

There are simply no "proper" keyboards anywhere for me to at least try the feel of and thus gain an idea of whether I want Cherry Blues or Browns or maybe ALPS whites or blacks.

I have located decent keyboards on-line but all are mail-order only from companies that have no convenient store into which I may wander and have a test ride.

The prices are high here and I'm not in a position to order a costly keyboard only to discover it's too firm or too noisy or the wrong shade of black.

Right now, I'd give my left nut for a time machine to go back a few years to when I had access to mechanical keyboards - and if I couldn't test them, at least tell myself to keep notes on which felt the most comfortable for me...

I'd also stop and pick up some Cherry and Almond icecream on the way back, but I digress.

From what I've read here, I'm leaning strongly to the thought that Cherry Browns may be closest to my taste but there's no way to be sure short of trying them.

Getting access to some to try is the rub.

Looked on ebay for really cheap ones but the freight costs from the US to here are prohibitive, nothing going on our local auction site.

Driving me nuts as once I have an idea of what I want, I can look around for a good price.

kickassdrummer · « **Reply #1 on:** Tue, 16 February 2010, 20:14:48 »

I feel your pain. If you see my very first post here from a few days back, I did all of my research online (primarily here) and ended up taking a gamble on the Filco Tenkeyless with Cherry Browns. While I don't have experience with the various other switch types, this to me seems like a really good starting point for someone wanting a mechanical board and I'd highly recommend it. You'll glean from my posts how much I adore this thing.

Mental Hobbit · « **Reply #2 on:** Tue, 16 February 2010, 21:29:57 »

See, you should live in Germany, the home of Cherry. ;P

Just kidding of course. All you can see and touch in a shop here is the same rubber crap as everywhere else in the world. Only a handful of the biggest online stores carry MX boards.

wolf · « **Reply #3 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 02:31:46 »

You'd think that some of the stores that sell the high-end computers and such would at least stock a few decent keyboards.

The expensive place I went to seems to just target rich business types who would not be seen dead buying a personal computer from **** Smith Electronics.

Sure, the machines are high-spec and you can get an LCD monitor the size of a smallish Lear Jet, but the keyboards they come bundled with are just shiny-looking rubber dome jobs.

The salesman I spoke to said he could order one in (presumably with a huge mark-up for his commission) if I gave him a make and model number and I said that I really wanted the opportunity to try them out first to decide which feels best for me and I would not want him to order in half a dozen keyboards to sell me one and hope that the rest would sell.

I avoided continuing, "which they would not do, considering the Suits you get in here would not appreciate the differences between quality boards and the crap you usually give them..."

While I can understand that such boards are not commonly sought and so there's no point in keeping a large stock of them on hand on the off chance you might sell a couple, I don't see why the stores don't stock a couple - which would not set them back a lot - and only order in replacements if they do sell one. It would at least give an option or two for the shoppers.

I'm sure they don't sell as many 54" screens as they sell other, smaller (and cheaper) ones, but they do stock small quantities of those...

ch_123 · « **Reply #4 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 03:26:40 »

There's people who still buy their computer parts in retail stores? =P

ricercar · « **Reply #5 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 10:41:13 »

Quote from: ch_123;158773

There's people who still buy their computer parts in retail stores? =P

Is that maybe like one of those mythical brick and mortar shoppes?

itlnstln · « **Reply #6 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 10:42:15 »

Nice touch with "shoppes." I see what you did there.

quadibloc · « **Reply #7 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 10:58:17 »

Quote from: itlnstln;158822

Nice touch with "shoppes." I see what you did there.

Ay, I can remember the days whenne faring my way unto ye olde brickke and mortarre fhoppe to make purchafe of a buckling-fpring keyboarde was an Eafie Optionne!

salcan · « **Reply #8 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 11:03:16 »

Yeah, I don't know of one local place (in NYC) I can go to try out a keyboard. Kinda frustrating when considering between different options.

The good news is that the products hold their resale value incredibly well, so if you buy a HHKB2/Realforce/filco and don't like it, you can get almost all your money back if you resell it quickly.

AvengeR · « **Reply #9 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 13:57:50 »

Quote from: salcan;158837

Yeah, I don't know of one local place (in NYC) I can go to try out a keyboard. Kinda frustrating when considering between different options.

The good news is that the products hold their resale value incredibly well, so if you buy a HHKB2/Realforce/filco and don't like it, you can get almost all your money back if you resell it quickly.

that happens with every pc component everywhere. You just can't go to a store and say you want to try out a full rig with a specific gfx card, or install quake and try how a mouse works with that mousepad you want to try so they shall waste one just for you.

my case is similar (Chile): the only brand new mechanical kb available is ss 7g (not interested at all because of black cherries). But it's worst since I'm not really into that but I want a kb that has full nkro (7g again) or a decent one (supports W+D+E at the same time for example), and there's almost no info on "regular" kbs (not cherries or others you have to buy from internet).
Actually my perfect kb would be tenkeyless with decent or full nkro, but I think no one has tested nkro with filco tenkeyless w/brown cherries, at least the combinations I want (W+A+Q, W+D+E, and general usability since I type quite fast).
At the end is more about lack of information available and also about guarantees. I don't want to spend US$200 to get a kb that could get here broken down and certainly not having guarantee if it breaks after that.
(oh the drama)

edit: maybe it is here now but geekhack should have all data of each kb on it's wiki, so for example if I go there and search for filco tenkeyless I will find the info about nkro, response (in ms), switches, if it has any specific problems like transposition errors, etc. without having to search that separately on google.

mp29k · « **Reply #10 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 14:05:05 »

I might be mistaken, but all of the Tenkeyless FILCO boards that elitekeyboards sells are NKRO* except for the "Zero" series, which are Simplified Alps copies anyway.

*"Full" is implied in NKRO, some board have better matrices that make the 2kro better, but if a board is truly NKRO (the FILCO Brown Tenkeyless classifies), you can press inifite (n) keys at the same time and they will all register.

AvengeR · « **Reply #11 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 14:16:27 »

Quote from: mp29k;158895

I might be mistaken, but all of the Tenkeyless FILCO boards that elitekeyboards sells are NKRO* except for the "Zero" series, which are Simplified Alps copies anyway.

*"Full" is implied in NKRO, some board have better matrices that make the 2kro better, but if a board is truly NKRO (the FILCO Brown Tenkeyless classifies), you can press inifite (n) keys at the same time and they will all register.

I think tenkeyless does not have full nkro.

I know it's implied on nkro but couldn't think of another way to say it than decent or better nkro

itlnstln · « **Reply #12 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 14:20:47 »

The Tenkeyless (Majestouch) are full NKRO. They include PS2 adapters, as well, to take advantage of it.

salcan · « **Reply #13 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 14:56:44 »

Quote from: AvengeR;158892

maybe it is here now but geekhack should have all data of each kb on it's wikie.

not to go completely OT, but this is a good idea. I'm always trying to remember the differences between two models, or some obscure fact and I have to google it, after which google just points me back here to a different thread.

I don't think it would have to be all the data, but some handy reference points would be good. switch type, key type, interface, size, etc

elservo · « **Reply #14 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 15:09:21 »

Quote from: quadibloc;158834

Ay, I can remember the days whenne faring my way unto ye olde brickke and mortarre fhoppe to make purchafe of a buckling-fpring keyboarde was an Eafie Optionne!

You just made me laugh out loud at my desk. I'm glad no one heard me because I wouldn't be able to explain it well enough to give it justice.

itlnstln · « **Reply #15 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 15:12:42 »

The "fs" for "Ss" was classic.

itlnstln · « **Reply #16 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 15:13:30 »

Quote from: salcan;158837

Yeah, I don't know of one local place (in NYC) I can go to try out a keyboard. Kinda frustrating when considering between different options.

The good news is that the products hold their resale value incredibly well, so if you buy a HHKB2/Realforce/filco and don't like it, you can get almost all your money back if you resell it quickly.

I'm glad this is the case. I just bought an HHKB, and if I don't like it, you'll be seeing it in the marketplace in a coupel of weeks.

Frawg · « **Reply #17 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 18:45:32 »

I may have a board for you to try out wolf, PM sent.

wolf · « **Reply #18 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 19:21:48 »

Quote from: ch_123;158773

There's people who still buy their computer parts in retail stores? =P

Us provincial types here in New Zealand do - we're still stuck in the 20th Century...

Quote from: ricercar;158821

Is that maybe like one of those mythical brick and mortar shoppes?

Not so mythical, we have them here - not far from Narnia and Middle Earth...

Quote from: quadibloc;158834

Ay, I can remember the days whenne faring my way unto ye olde brickke and mortarre fhoppe to make purchafe of a buckling-fpring keyboarde was an Eafie Optionne!

Verily, thou haft a moft amazing memory...

Quote from: AvengeR;158892

that happens with every pc component everywhere. You just can't go to a store and say you want to try out a full rig with a specific gfx card, or install quake and try how a mouse works with that mousepad you want to try so they shall waste one just for you.

And nor would I expect it, but the keyboards are generally on the shelves and you can poke and prod them, see exactly how spongy they are - just as the 54" monitors are on display hooked up to a computer so you can see how cool they look.

wolf · « **Reply #19 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 19:30:38 »

Quote from: Frawg;158959

I may have a board for you to try out wolf, PM sent.

Cheers, Frawg, reply sent.

wolf · « **Reply #20 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 19:33:53 »

Quote from: webwit;158976

I would give you a Model M, if you pay for the shipping :madgrin:

Thanks, webwit, I'm familiar with Model Ms and think they are awesome but they are too firm for my tastes - very tiring to type on them. Which is a pity as they are as solid as!

wolf · « **Reply #21 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 19:40:07 »

Quote from: webwit;158980

There are too many rrrrrs in the thread title to leave pirates unmentioned.

pmsl!

So, now Ripster will be making a lego scene of this thread with pirates in it...

quadibloc · « **Reply #22 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 22:23:50 »

After the little comment about "shoppes", I felt I had to show how one could give it the full treatment.

And there is some historical validity, even if the Eighteenth Century was no time to be buying a Model M - or, indeed, any kind of a computer. For my first Model M was purchased at an IBM Home Computing location - in the physical brick and mortar of West Edmonton Mall - at a reduced sale price that week, IIRC, of around $50.

And the box did say "Easy Options by IBM" on it.

ricercar · « **Reply #23 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 22:36:14 »

Quote from: webwit;158976

I would give you a Model M, if you pay for shipping[/URL] :madgrin:

Hola! We see a generous soul behind that gruff exterior. Caught you out, you old softie. I take back all those bad things I thought at you.

Quote from: wolf;158979

Thanks, webwit ... they are too firm for my tastes

And lo, an honest man, or at least one not motivated by pure greed, and apparently one who knows himself. Kudos.

Well pleased to be in your company.

wolf · « **Reply #24 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 23:45:03 »

Cheers, ricercar.

I would not potentially deny others who could possibly benefit from webwit's offer - after all, it's too firm for me but others like firmer boards - by accepting something that I already know does not suit me.

Perhaps some other time someone will be looking for a firmer board and wanting to try a Model M - and the chances are high that they'd be geographically closer to Zeeland than New Zealand when it comes to freighting it to them.

OK, I don't know where in the Nederlands webwit comes from, but I could not resist the joke.

wolf · « **Reply #25 on:** Wed, 17 February 2010, 23:58:02 »

Quote from: quadibloc;159020

And there is some historical validity, even if the Eighteenth Century was no time to be buying a Model M - or, indeed, any kind of a computer.

'tis true, 'tis true. 'tis amazing the amount of stuff I couldn't buy back in the Eighteenth Century that I can buy now...

AvengeR · « **Reply #26 on:** Thu, 18 February 2010, 12:30:29 »

Quote from: itlnstln;158900

The Tenkeyless (Majestouch) are full NKRO. They include PS2 adapters, as well, to take advantage of it.

When I first looked at it a couple years ago it didn't say they were nkro, but now it does.

Anyway just to be sure, can someone here test nkro on a filco tenkeyless with brown switches? It doesn't say it is on the product name but it does on the description, so just to be sure.

ricercar · « **Reply #27 on:** Thu, 18 February 2010, 14:55:58 »

Correction:

MY NAME IS RIPSTER, YOU DISSED CHERRY BLUES, PREPARE TO DIE!

[/QUOTE]

itlnstln · « **Reply #28 on:** Thu, 18 February 2010, 15:09:18 »

I still say he jacked a picture of me for that scene.

elservo · « **Reply #29 on:** Thu, 18 February 2010, 19:29:34 »

The random cherry blue hate always strikes me directly in the heart. It also emboldens me to love cherry blues even more.

wolf · « **Reply #30 on:** Thu, 18 February 2010, 20:11:46 »

I know what I need, a keyboard that has one of each colour Cherry switch, each of the ALPs and a Topre. Did I miss any?

I could sit and pound at each repeatedly until I get a feel for them and make my decision... :biggrin1:

Perhaps we could market such a thing - throw on a buckling spring switch as well (and a rubber dome switch so they can do a direct comparison between that and the proper switches) and sell them.

The geekhack version of a colour sample sheet or fabric swatches...

AvengeR · « **Reply #31 on:** Thu, 18 February 2010, 21:07:50 »

.

Quote from: AvengeR;159170

When I first looked at it a couple years ago it didn't say they were nkro, but now it does.

Anyway just to be sure, can someone here test nkro on a filco tenkeyless with brown switches? It doesn't say it is on the product name but it does on the description, so just to be sure.

AvengeR · « **Reply #32 on:** Fri, 19 February 2010, 09:21:51 »

oh and if possible using ps/2

thanks

Phaedrus2129 · « **Reply #33 on:** Fri, 19 February 2010, 12:31:23 »

Quote from: ripster;159374

Works fine under USB.

I see no reason why they would be lying about the PS/2 part.

They're not Toyota.

I think Toyota made my friend's keyboard. The e key dosn't always actuat when it's supposd to, and sometimes doeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesn't stop when it's supposed to.

wolf · « **Reply #34 on:** Thu, 25 February 2010, 03:20:00 »

Quote from: wolf;158737

Frustration reigns supreme, here.

...

Right now, I'd give my left nut for a time machine to go back a few years to when I had access to mechanical keyboards - and if I couldn't test them, at least tell myself to keep notes on which felt the most comfortable for me...

I'd also stop and pick up some Cherry and Almond icecream on the way back, but I digress.

Elation now reigns supreme here.

I've got a mechanical keyboard from back in the old AT days - and it didn't cost me either nut.

I was poking about in the garage and found an old box of computer bits that included three keyboards: an old Super 5 with 5-pin DIN plug and both the "Windows" and "Context Menu" keys on it, an old Compaq keyboard with PS/2 plug and neither of those keys, both some sort of rubber dome board but with plastic switch-like assemblies (presumably to serve the same function as scissor switches) and - drum-roll, please - an old Ortek MCK-201 with white ALPS (most likely complicated, going by its age) and double-shot key caps (rather yellowed with age, I must admit).

The lettering on the ctrl keys is red, on the alt it's green, black on the other keys.

I've had a bit of a play with it - play being the operative word as I sure can't plug it in and use it - and I have to say, it requires no more force to press the keys than the rubber dome board I'm currently using. If anything, it feels easier to press.

The keys are certainly more uniform in execution to the keys on this keyboard. Tactile, clicky - but not to loud or intrusive, not an unpleasant tone. Noisiest bit is me bottoming out the key - if I don't press too hard and pull back just as it clicks, it's actually fairly quiet.

From the descriptions given hereabouts, I'd say the key caps are PBT - thinner and harder than the ABS keys of the Compaq/HP boards I've used and stripped recently.

So, I'm as happy as a pig in muck as I now have a point of reference to which to compare descriptions of other mechanical keyboards and I know that at the very least, I can cope with old-style white ALPS.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #35 on:** Thu, 25 February 2010, 07:16:58 »

Quote from: wolf;160621

I've had a bit of a play with it - play being the operative word as I sure can't plug it in and use it -

Why not? I'd guess it has a DIN plug, so with a (mechanical) adapter to PS/2 and possibly a Blue Cube or similar PS/2 - USB adapter you should be good to go.

wolf · « **Reply #36 on:** Thu, 25 February 2010, 15:05:21 »

Yep, it's a DIN plug - and adapters for PS/2 are not something I have lying around - not even in that box of old crap - and it was late at night here when I found the keyboard so no chance of tracking one down.

I've only got to get it as far as PS/2 as my "antique" computer has PS/2 ports. So I'll have to find a DIN to PS/2 converter.

On closer inspection and by removing a key cap for comparison, I've determined that the loud "bottoming out" clack is not the switch bottoming - it's the key cap hitting the plastic frame into which the switches are set. This happens quite a way after the switch has clicked so I could quiet that down simply enough by gluing a layer of thin felt over the top of the frame beneath the key caps - they would hit that instead of the frame and not make the loud plastic-on-plastic crack.

The other cool thing about the board is that it uses the different profiles of key caps for each row, giving it a contour that my newer keyboards, with their uniform caps, do not have.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #37 on:** Thu, 25 February 2010, 15:54:26 »

Quote from: wolf;160690

The other cool thing about the board is that it uses the different profiles of key caps for each row, giving it a contour that my newer keyboards, with their uniform caps, do not have.

It's a pretty standard thing among mechanical boards actually, as well as older membrane-based boards, where the curvature can be a result of either a concave back plate or the right kind of keycap set. (IBM's keyboards came curved, so everyone else did the same. It goes back even further though.) I think among all my boards (a good dozen or so) there are only two flat ones... Nope, make that just one.

Mental Hobbit · « **Reply #38 on:** Thu, 25 February 2010, 18:13:13 »

Are there any non-IBM keyboards using a concave backplate?

kishy · « **Reply #39 on:** Thu, 25 February 2010, 18:19:10 »

Quote from: Mental Hobbit;160734

Are there any non-IBM keyboards using a concave backplate?

Yes, but not in the sense you mean.

The Keytronic I posted photos of a while back has a "based on the Model M" backplate molded into the bottom half of the case. The construction inside is fairly similar too.

spolia optima · « **Reply #40 on:** Fri, 26 February 2010, 00:07:05 »

Quote from: Mental Hobbit;160734

Are there any non-IBM keyboards using a concave backplate?

there's the peerless, but I would avoid that keyboard completely

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyatlov_Pass_incident

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Author Topic: Arrrrrgh! (Read 7064 times)