SP-SA Carbon Round 2

[T0mb3ry]

This is GB/Drop thread for SP-SA Carbon Round 2

Buy SP-SA Carbon here!

[T0mb3ry]

reserved.

[yookwh]

Hype!

[KnightDX]

Excitement is building! Was there a ETA on when it would ship on the MD page at all?

[richard912]

Hyped for Bone!!!

[ChitownM2]

Excitement is building! Was there a ETA on when it would ship on the MD page at all?

I'm sure there will be once it goes live tomorrow morning. Very curious to see how long the wait will be....

[zoomwalt]

So much for saving money this month.......

[isunktheship]

First page hype bump, wallet ready to flip inside out.

[a_ak57]

I'm so utterly terrified to see the final cost of everything I'll want to buy tomorrow.  But this is my favorite SA set and what got me into looking at custom keycaps in the first place, so I at least know I won't have buyer's remorse later on.

[zeshon]

Oh god... I'll be buying 8 different kits tomorrow, at least. RIP my wallet.

[Oblotzky]

So much for saving money this month.......

You'll be charged next month, so technically.....  )

[hervuli]

Drop looks great! Should have paid closer attention to the IC thread, but I'm curious about the Adaptive Alphas kit - as someone who much prefers uniform R3 SA to fully sculpted, this is an awesome option to have. But I don't see a corresponding kit for R3 modifiers; am I missing something?

[KaosJ]

There should be a mistake on massdrop   

https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/img_comment%2FIE0ubZGNS8W4JZ7xKUhF_asd.png?auto=format&fm=jpg&fit=max&w=1300&h=760&dpr=1&q=80   


Also, can someone explain me the ADAPTIVE ALPHA, seems to be a all-R3 flat alphas, with an extra R2 that i don't understand and there are no modifiers kit in R3.  What i missed?   

[eddible]

Great to see this drop! However, on the IC it said:

When it will be made? - Soon. Sooner as you might think, thus you can keep the jokes about SPs leadtime for yourself.

Is March actually a sooner date than expected, or is there a chance that the ship date will be reviewed? I guess I was just hoping that MD had already reserved a production slot or something.

[kawasaki161]

Interesting to see that the bone extension kit is cheaper than the normal extension kit.

[iindigo]

Great to see this drop! However, on the IC it said:

When it will be made? - Soon. Sooner as you might think, thus you can keep the jokes about SPs leadtime for yourself.

Is March actually a sooner date than expected, or is there a chance that the ship date will be reviewed? I guess I was just hoping that MD had already reserved a production slot or something.

Yeah seriously, SP waits are always long but this is reaching a new level. Was hoping to do a carbon-based build as an xmas gift for someone but that's no longer a possibility.

If SP can't meet demand a little better I think maybe the community as a whole should start exploring the possibility of switching manufacturing to a company that's a little less lackadaisical.

[RubenMcNoobin]

YES! I'm so excited for this, even knowing full and well the kind of wait ahead of us before it's finally in our hands. Let's do this!

[a_ak57]

Added what I plan to get and over $300, and I didn't even put everything I'd like to get.

[haydoselefantes]

Massdrop shows Backspace in R2 profile for the regular modifiers. 

Is it safe to assume Backspace is R1 profile like it shows in the IC here?

[Arallu]

Massdrop shows Backspace in R2 profile for the regular modifiers. 

Is it safe to assume Backspace is R1 profile like it shows in the IC here?

Interesting, is that an error? It looks like the normal kit is 1-2-2-3-4-4 and the Bone kit is 1-1-2-3-4-4, but the extension kits both have R2 backspaces?

[T0mb3ry]

Massdrop shows Backspace in R2 profile for the regular modifiers. 

Is it safe to assume Backspace is R1 profile like it shows in the IC here?

Interesting, is that an error? It looks like the normal kit is 1-2-2-3-4-4 and the Bone kit is 1-1-2-3-4-4, but the extension kits both have R2 backspaces?

Its an error. Will be fixed next update.

[chuckdee]

Great to see this drop! However, on the IC it said:

When it will be made? - Soon. Sooner as you might think, thus you can keep the jokes about SPs leadtime for yourself.

Is March actually a sooner date than expected, or is there a chance that the ship date will be reviewed? I guess I was just hoping that MD had already reserved a production slot or something.

Yeah seriously, SP waits are always long but this is reaching a new level. Was hoping to do a carbon-based build as an xmas gift for someone but that's no longer a possibility.

If SP can't meet demand a little better I think maybe the community as a whole should start exploring the possibility of switching manufacturing to a company that's a little less lackadaisical.

That assumes that it is lackadaisical, and that there is another company with the same quality, and that they aren't trying to do something, but it just takes time and money.

[KaosJ]

Just out of curiosity, was the 1.75u R4 proposed in some kits (like common modifiers) and refused, or no one proposed it? 

Seems like, as expected i will have to buy an extra kit (extra modifiers) only for a damn R4 1.75u R-SHIFT.   

[bciamny]

congrats on this awesome gb t0mb3ry. i feel pretty confident that md is taking a loss on the warning sign kit. 36 keys (novelties at that) for $13 doesn't make sense and the additional drop point went away.

i hope we get to 100 moq for rolling bones. as the freshest concept in this round, it'd be awesome if it was a little more affordable.

[isunktheship]

Was a bit surprised to see drop 4 quantity at 200 - T0mb3ry did you doubt the demand for your set  (or maybe that's just as low as humanly possible)

The following have exceeded their highest MOQ tier:

• Alphas, 193.5% overfunded
• Modifiers kit, 109.5% overfunded
• Numpad kit, 95% overfunded
• Carbon novelties, 162% overfunded
• Arrows kit, 148% overfunded
• 6.25u spacebar, 16% overfunded
• Blank alphas, 4% overfunded

The following haven't reached Tier 1 MOQ (yet):

• Base modifiers extension, 44% underfunded
• DC kit, 28% underfunded
• Adaptive Alphas, 12% underfunded
• 40%, 62% underfunded
• Bone numpad kit, 36% underfunded
• Orange NORDEUK kit, 84% underfunded
• Exotic kit, 40% underfunded
• Flex kit, 12% underfunded
• Rolling bones, 6% underfunded
• Spacekeys, 64% underfunded

[chuckdee]

There should be a mistake on massdrop   

https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/img_comment%2FIE0ubZGNS8W4JZ7xKUhF_asd.png?auto=format&fm=jpg&fit=max&w=1300&h=760&dpr=1&q=80   


Also, can someone explain me the ADAPTIVE ALPHA, seems to be a all-R3 flat alphas, with an extra R2 that i don't understand and there are no modifiers kit in R3.  What i missed?

It's for Planck.  t0mb3ry explained it via Slack.

[1:01] sry full uniform support is not available
[1:01] only for planck

[T0mb3ry]

Was a bit surprised to see drop 4 quantity at 200 - T0mb3ry did you doubt the demand for your set  (or maybe that's just as low as humanly possible)

The following have exceeded their highest MOQ tier:

• Alphas, 193.5% overfunded
• Modifiers kit, 109.5% overfunded
• Numpad kit, 95% overfunded
• Carbon novelties, 162% overfunded
• Arrows kit, 148% overfunded
• 6.25u spacebar, 16% overfunded
• Blank alphas, 4% overfunded

The following haven't reached Tier 1 MOQ (yet):

• Base modifiers extension, 44% underfunded
• DC kit, 28% underfunded
• Adaptive Alphas, 12% underfunded
• 40%, 62% underfunded
• Bone numpad kit, 36% underfunded
• Orange NORDEUK kit, 84% underfunded
• Exotic kit, 40% underfunded
• Flex kit, 12% underfunded
• Rolling bones, 6% underfunded
• Spacekeys, 64% underfunded

Well i am sure other kits will hit their moq .

Keep in mind i am not responsible for price drop points and moq. Its almost solely done by SP. Afaik SPs drop points are significant at the beginning but with higher MOQ reached, they become neglectable.

[jcc04]

Base modifier extent. is one of the problems with a weird bottom row... boo

[isunktheship]

Well i am sure other kits will hit their moq .

Keep in mind i am not responsible for price drop points and moq. Its almost solely done by SP. Afaik SPs drop points are significant at the beginning but with higher MOQ reached, they become neglectable.

I'm sure they will too, barely 10 hours into the drop!  Good to know how pricing works, makes sense that the savings become negligible.

[OracleKev]

> Well i am sure other kits will hit their moq.

T0mb3ry, frankly this is lame.
To be blunt, Mod Extension Kit is a fiasco.
I went to the GH IC thread and was surprised to find out that the Modifiers were initially a full set, but was subsequently split under the pretense of making things affordable with TKL.  While TKL might have eked out some gain, but everyone with non-standard layout are force fed an expensive kit with low utilization.

What also disturbed me was there were bunch of feedbacks multiple times in the IC discussion in this regard.  They were shut down.  Your quotes:
"Anyway TKL is the base - deal with it."
"the kits as FINALIZED. That means i do not take any new suggestion"

And now that the numbers are showing up proving the short sightedness of this decision, you say
"Well i am sure other kits will hit their moq" and I am not responsible for bunch of stuff!!!???

I'm a fan of your designs and recently I bought $379 worth of Yuri and told friends+family to get it.
If you are not listening to the community, why should we support you?

[bciamny]

> Well i am sure other kits will hit their moq.

T0mb3ry, frankly this is lame.
To be blunt, Mod Extension Kit is a fiasco.
I went to the GH IC thread and was surprised to find out that the Modifiers were initially a full set, but was subsequently split under the pretense of making things affordable with TKL.  While TKL might have eked out some gain, but everyone with non-standard layout are force fed an expensive kit with low utilization.

What also disturbed me was there were bunch of feedbacks multiple times in the IC discussion in this regard.  They were shut down.  Your quotes:
"Anyway TKL is the base - deal with it."
"the kits as FINALIZED. That means i do not take any new suggestion"

And now that the numbers are showing up proving the short sightedness of this decision, you say
"Well i am sure other kits will hit their moq" and I am not responsible for bunch of stuff!!!???

I'm a fan of your designs and recently I bought $379 worth of Yuri and told friends+family to get it.
If you are not listening to the community, why should we support you?

i think the tkl decision may have been in part due to how massdrop sees the economics of this playing out. in smaller gbs that don't use a platform like massdrop, it might make sense to make overinclusive modifier kits since they are usually catering to the interests of a few. in the past for geekhack sa gbs, that could have meant a mod kit that would be bigger to accomodate the various kinds of layouts that gh members sport. massdrop's audience is different and i think that also has to be given proper respect (since we are using their platform to increase the size of the gb).

for the keys included alpha + tkl = $83 for a 200 moq. dasher (the last sa md gb) had tkl for $68 for a 500 moq. jukebox of 2016 had a 750 moq (for base, 600+ moq for 60/tkl) that came out to $64. part of this is simply due to price increases by sp (probably accounting for some of the new investment in production mentioned in the godspeed gb). part of it is different moqs. but ultimately it hasn't really been the case that the keys in the extension sets were a part of the mod kits in past massdrop sa gbs.

in any case, your response seems a bit dramatic since it's only the first day of the drop. let's see where this ends up before drawing any conclusions.

[GroovyGI]

I cant wait to see all the talk about this set till they ship next year. I am happy I got my order in t Massdrop and no longer have to wait til the drop starts. I am very happy about Valve giving permission for the Lambda keys to be added to this set. So when will the GMK Carbon round 2 IC be starting, I didn't give all my money to Massdrop just yet.

Thanks T0mb3ry for making this happen again.

[OracleKev]

> Well i am sure other kits will hit their moq.

T0mb3ry, frankly this is lame.
To be blunt, Mod Extension Kit is a fiasco.
I went to the GH IC thread and was surprised to find out that the Modifiers were initially a full set, but was subsequently split under the pretense of making things affordable with TKL.  While TKL might have eked out some gain, but everyone with non-standard layout are force fed an expensive kit with low utilization.

What also disturbed me was there were bunch of feedbacks multiple times in the IC discussion in this regard.  They were shut down.  Your quotes:
"Anyway TKL is the base - deal with it."
"the kits as FINALIZED. That means i do not take any new suggestion"

And now that the numbers are showing up proving the short sightedness of this decision, you say
"Well i am sure other kits will hit their moq" and I am not responsible for bunch of stuff!!!???

I'm a fan of your designs and recently I bought $379 worth of Yuri and told friends+family to get it.
If you are not listening to the community, why should we support you?

i think the tkl decision may have been in part due to how massdrop sees the economics of this playing out. in smaller gbs that don't use a platform like massdrop, it might make sense to make overinclusive modifier kits since they are usually catering to the interests of a few. in the past for geekhack sa gbs, that could have meant a mod kit that would be bigger to accomodate the various kinds of layouts that gh members sport. massdrop's audience is different and i think that also has to be given proper respect (since we are using their platform to increase the size of the gb).

for the keys included alpha + tkl = $83 for a 200 moq. dasher (the last sa md gb) had tkl for $68 for a 500 moq. jukebox of 2016 had a 750 moq (for base, 600+ moq for 60/tkl) that came out to $64. part of this is simply due to price increases by sp (probably accounting for some of the new investment in production mentioned in the godspeed gb). part of it is different moqs. but ultimately it hasn't really been the case that the keys in the extension sets were a part of the mod kits in past massdrop sa gbs.

in any case, your response seems a bit dramatic since it's only the first day of the drop. let's see where this ends up before drawing any conclusions.

Thanks for your feedback.  Here is my observations after reading the IC discussion and watching how the drop is developing.
1. Community members provided feedback and debugging support via IC discussion and e-mails
2. Community members helped generate buzz on GH and MD
3. Decisions (schedule--drop/ship, kitting and pricing) and logic behind them are opaque, it's not even clear who decides what
4. There has been zero response to thorny questions at MD and here

I'm not going to draw conclusions here.  MD gets revenue, profit, leverage for hosting this drop.  What is the enthusiast community (narrowed down to be specific) getting for its contributions?

No problem seeing how this plays out.  Do you have criteria for success/fail?  I'm curious what you have in mind for metrics from the enthusiast community perspective.  I think we should have some version open up front, so we have something to reference and avoid hand waiving.

[bun]

Well, I said in the interest check that i'm interested, and now here I am all in for 6 kits:

* Alphas
* Modifiers Kit
* Modifiers Extension Kit
* Half-Life Lambda Kit
* Alternate Colorway
* Warning Signs

Total is $198.93 including shipping. The hurt sets in when I convert to $NZD so i'll just pretend that the dollar is 1 for 1.

Massdrop's buy page is a little odd... after buying alphas with a modifier kit as an option, it makes you specify alphas as "No, thanks" and add each subsequent kit as a single option.... strange.

This is my first keycap group buy so hoping that it all goes uneventfully well. I don't mind the wait until next year, which must be a sign of getting older. Hopefully i'll still be alive when they get here otherwise whoever is living here after i'm gone will be receiving mana from heaven and will hopefully appreciate it as such.

For those who are old hands at this, how long does it take for the feeling of horror to go away when spending so much money on these alluring little pieces of plastic?

And then there's nautilus next month too... 

[ehmlis]

[...]

For those who are old hands at this, how long does it take for the feeling of horror to go away when spending so much money on these alluring little pieces of plastic?

[...]

The feeling of horror goes away after a few days, only to resurface when you're planning to buy something new for your keyboard(s) and you suddenly realize how much you've really spent on it/them.

[xantiema]

Cannot design on my final layout design >.<

[xantiema]

Was a bit surprised to see drop 4 quantity at 200 - T0mb3ry did you doubt the demand for your set  (or maybe that's just as low as humanly possible)

The following have exceeded their highest MOQ tier:

• Alphas, 193.5% overfunded
• Modifiers kit, 109.5% overfunded
• Numpad kit, 95% overfunded
• Carbon novelties, 162% overfunded
• Arrows kit, 148% overfunded
• 6.25u spacebar, 16% overfunded
• Blank alphas, 4% overfunded

The following haven't reached Tier 1 MOQ (yet):

• Base modifiers extension, 44% underfunded
• DC kit, 28% underfunded
• Adaptive Alphas, 12% underfunded
• 40%, 62% underfunded
• Bone numpad kit, 36% underfunded
• Orange NORDEUK kit, 84% underfunded
• Exotic kit, 40% underfunded
• Flex kit, 12% underfunded
• Rolling bones, 6% underfunded
• Spacekeys, 64% underfunded

Where do you get this info? Any updated info? Include stuff such as ISO kits and Valve kits etc.

[chuckdee]

I'm not going to draw conclusions here.  MD gets revenue, profit, leverage for hosting this drop.  What is the enthusiast community (narrowed down to be specific) getting for its contributions?

A solid platform for the offering?  If it goes longer and you want to back out, you're free to do so.  If there is a problem with the caps, they will handle it.  They won't just disappear with your money.  You're guaranteed to get your caps.  Their prices are in line with the other company backed GBs (OCo/KeyClack).

Can you say all of that for any other non company backed GB?

[xantiema]

Isn't it 'were in line with'. This drop seems far more expensive than should be.

[nao]

Isn't it 'were in line with'. This drop seems far more expensive than should be.

Sure, they are not the same, but only a little. (Especially the standard layout)
I think that it is a harmful effect by producing many type of kits.

[chuckdee]

Isn't it 'were in line with'. This drop seems far more expensive than should be.

Sure, they are not the same, but only a little. (Especially the standard layout)
I think that it is a harmful effect by producing many type of kits.

Ding, ding, ding.

[xantiema]

How does one go on about checking what has been ordered so far?

[isunktheship]

How does one go on about checking what has been ordered so far?

Just refresh the massdrop page and check out the table, current image

ooo, new tier 5 for alphas @1000

[zslane]

What is the enthusiast community (narrowed down to be specific) getting for its contributions?

It's getting custom keycaps it can purchase. Is this a trick question?

Does the enthusiast community feel entitled to something more?

Determining kit composition is, in my view, the hardest and most exhausting aspect of designing a keycap set. You can't get anything resembling community consensus, and inevitably some subset of enthusiasts will gripe about the way the sets are arranged. The only way designers survive the process is to step away from the spotlight (on the forums especially) and stop listening/responding to all the noise.

[riktors]

Super pumped for the set. Hope the date gets pushed up at some point but I'd rather wait a while than pay the after market prices right now.

[OracleKev]

I'm not going to draw conclusions here.  MD gets revenue, profit, leverage for hosting this drop.  What is the enthusiast community (narrowed down to be specific) getting for its contributions?

A solid platform for the offering?  If it goes longer and you want to back out, you're free to do so.  If there is a problem with the caps, they will handle it.  They won't just disappear with your money.  You're guaranteed to get your caps.  Their prices are in line with the other company backed GBs (OCo/KeyClack).

Can you say all of that for any other non company backed GB?

"platform" - I don't know how you caught onto this lingo and sing this tune, but that's pretty nice label for a website with billing and time shared staff to handle moderation, fulfillment and customer service.
I don't know what scam you have been subjected to.  Things that you describe are basic business expectations.

Most importantly you haven't answered the question.  What is the enthusiast community (pls differentiate from Joe walking off street on MD site--people like you and me) getting?

[chuckdee]

I'm not going to draw conclusions here.  MD gets revenue, profit, leverage for hosting this drop.  What is the enthusiast community (narrowed down to be specific) getting for its contributions?

A solid platform for the offering?  If it goes longer and you want to back out, you're free to do so.  If there is a problem with the caps, they will handle it.  They won't just disappear with your money.  You're guaranteed to get your caps.  Their prices are in line with the other company backed GBs (OCo/KeyClack).

Can you say all of that for any other non company backed GB?

"platform" - I don't know how you caught onto this lingo and sing this tune, but that's pretty nice label for a website with billing and time shared staff to handle moderation, fulfillment and customer service.
I don't know what scam you have been subjected to.  Things that you describe are basic business expectations.

Most importantly you haven't answered the question.  What is the enthusiast community (pls differentiate from Joe walking off street on MD site--people like you and me) getting?

Look around on GH.  A lot of people have been scammed and taken years to get anything.  I did answer the question.  You just didn't like my answer.  You can also look at zslane a few posts up who answered in the simplest fashion... we're getting the caps. 

What more do you expect?

[T0mb3ry]

> Well i am sure other kits will hit their moq.

T0mb3ry, frankly this is lame.
To be blunt, Mod Extension Kit is a fiasco.
I went to the GH IC thread and was surprised to find out that the Modifiers were initially a full set, but was subsequently split under the pretense of making things affordable with TKL.  While TKL might have eked out some gain, but everyone with non-standard layout are force fed an expensive kit with low utilization.

What also disturbed me was there were bunch of feedbacks multiple times in the IC discussion in this regard.  They were shut down.  Your quotes:
"Anyway TKL is the base - deal with it."
"the kits as FINALIZED. That means i do not take any new suggestion"

And now that the numbers are showing up proving the short sightedness of this decision, you say
"Well i am sure other kits will hit their moq" and I am not responsible for bunch of stuff!!!???

I'm a fan of your designs and recently I bought $379 worth of Yuri and told friends+family to get it.
If you are not listening to the community, why should we support you?

i think the tkl decision may have been in part due to how massdrop sees the economics of this playing out. in smaller gbs that don't use a platform like massdrop, it might make sense to make overinclusive modifier kits since they are usually catering to the interests of a few. in the past for geekhack sa gbs, that could have meant a mod kit that would be bigger to accomodate the various kinds of layouts that gh members sport. massdrop's audience is different and i think that also has to be given proper respect (since we are using their platform to increase the size of the gb).

for the keys included alpha + tkl = $83 for a 200 moq. dasher (the last sa md gb) had tkl for $68 for a 500 moq. jukebox of 2016 had a 750 moq (for base, 600+ moq for 60/tkl) that came out to $64. part of this is simply due to price increases by sp (probably accounting for some of the new investment in production mentioned in the godspeed gb). part of it is different moqs. but ultimately it hasn't really been the case that the keys in the extension sets were a part of the mod kits in past massdrop sa gbs.

in any case, your response seems a bit dramatic since it's only the first day of the drop. let's see where this ends up before drawing any conclusions.

Making a suggestion does not mean i will fullfill it. If i see its not appropriate then i will not do it. But i've read every suggestion and made my thoughts to it. Anyway i am always thankfull for every suggestion even if it does not fit the setup.

[isunktheship]

What is the enthusiast community (pls differentiate from Joe walking off street on MD site--people like you and me) getting?

Given your 5 posts, I want to say this is either a brilliant troll, or you're an entitled bag of poop - creators owe you nothing.

[OracleKev]

Determining kit composition is, in my view, the hardest and most exhausting aspect of designing a keycap set. You can't get anything resembling community consensus, and inevitably some subset of enthusiasts will gripe about the way the sets are arranged. The only way designers survive the process is to step away from the spotlight (on the forums especially) and stop listening/responding to all the noise.

If you look through the IC discussion, the issues raised were legit concerns coming from multiple members.  They are not random individual gripes.

"step away from the spotlight (on the forums especially) and stop listening/responding to all the noise."
You gotta be kidding.  It's the designer who opens the discussions with the intention of getting feedback and engaging the community.  Are you not able to distinguish what is noise versus legit concerns from kit usability or community interests?