F107 vs. F62 Reproduction vs. F77 Reproduction vs. F122

[willmurray461]

If you had the choice between an F107 from a 4704 Terminal converted to usb, a F62 reproduction from modelfkeyboards.com, a F77 reproduction from the same website and a F122 missing a "9" key on the numpad and not converted to usb, which would you pick?

[klennkellon]

The original battleship 122 will always be best as long as it's not in need of any repairs.

edit: any missing keys could be easily replaced, Unicomp or Model M caps fit on Model F's or buy an original cap from someone on the classifieds

[xueyao]

If you're comparing typing experience and build quality, the reproduction will definitely beat the older ones out of the water. I mean it's a reproduction, whereas the original model F have suffered more than 20 years of banging.

However, the sentimental value and the thrill of working to restore an original Model F is definitely more tempting and fun. Moreover some people prefer the F107 or F122 layout compared to the reproduction models.

Personally I've ordered an F77 reproduction and restored 2 XT, an AT a 3727 Beamspring and countless Model M, and the magical feeling of restoring them completely and seeing them plugged in the first time always gives me great pleasure. Sometimes, people prefer the older stuff just for the experience of getting their hands dirty.

P.S. Beamspring truly lives up to its legendary reputation and they are a pure joy to clatter and type on.

[Tactile]

Another vote for the F122 for the layout and simply because it's the king of the F family. I'd rather have a good, working one of those than any of the others. Oh, wait.... I do.

And, BTW, it was very easy to convert mine internally to USB with full programmability.

[Zobeid Zuma]

F77 repro for me, all the way.  It's pretty close to my ideal keyboard layout.

To me, the F122 is a relic from the DOS era when there was no mouse and computers were controlled entirely through the keyboard.  Thus, a large keyboard with a key for every function.

[willmurray461]

The original battleship 122 will always be best as long as it's not in need of any repairs.

edit: any missing keys could be easily replaced, Unicomp or Model M caps fit on Model F's or buy an original cap from someone on the classifieds

not really, unicomp, as far as I know doesn't make the numpad "9" that is used on the F122. The numpad "9" they make has the page up legend underneath it, whereas the F122 does not.

[klennkellon]

The original battleship 122 will always be best as long as it's not in need of any repairs.

edit: any missing keys could be easily replaced, Unicomp or Model M caps fit on Model F's or buy an original cap from someone on the classifieds

not really, unicomp, as far as I know doesn't make the numpad "9" that is used on the F122. The numpad "9" they make has the page up legend underneath it, whereas the F122 does not.

yeah but it's better than missing the key

[fanpeople]

The original battleship 122 will always be best as long as it's not in need of any repairs.

edit: any missing keys could be easily replaced, Unicomp or Model M caps fit on Model F's or buy an original cap from someone on the classifieds

not really, unicomp, as far as I know doesn't make the numpad "9" that is used on the F122. The numpad "9" they make has the page up legend underneath it, whereas the F122 does not.

Unicomp can make any key u want. Trust me even if they try to tell you that they can't, they can and i have the keys to prove it.

[ander]

I've never understood the appeal of mini-keebs... Yes, they're cute, but it just seems like more work, having to use combinations for the simplest things. (Like, moving your cursor...?)

I know you didn't include this in your choices, but what I'd most like to see is a reproduction with Model F switches and a standard ANSI layout (101, 104, anything like that). It wouldn't really be a "reproduction", since IBM never made boards like that—but if you use keyboards for typing, not just collecting, that'd be the most practical and enjoyable one ever made, IMHO.

I'm actually surprised no one else has said a word about this. I don't imagine there's much of a chance of such boards ever appearing, since the F-repro project seems heavily collector-driven. But then again, these aren't vintage boards—so what are people "collecting" when they buy them, really? And why feel locked into antiquated layouts? Would a 104-key Model F seem sacrilegious?

[xueyao]

I've never understood the appeal of mini-keebs... Yes, they're cute, but it just seems like more work, having to use combinations for the simplest things. (Like, moving your cursor...?)

I know you didn't include this in your choices, but what I'd most like to see is a reproduction with Model F switches and a standard ANSI layout (101, 104, anything like that). It wouldn't really be a "reproduction", since IBM never made boards like that—but if you use keyboards for typing, not just collecting, that'd be the most practical and enjoyable one ever made, IMHO.

I'm actually surprised no one else has said a word about this. I don't imagine there's much of a chance of such boards ever appearing, since the F-repro project seems heavily collector-driven. But then again, these aren't vintage boards—so what are people "collecting" when they buy them, really? And why feel locked into antiquated layouts? Would a 104-key Model F seem sacrilegious?

IMHO, it's a retro project aimed at enthusiasts who wants to have a super rare board that is brand new. Moreover, the layout is a standard 60% (F62) and basically a TKL (F77). The layout is the most distinct characteristic of the 4704 and changing it would be changing the 'retro' part of the project. A full ANSI keyboard would be a great choice, but it would lose the retro feeling and incur extra cost and work since a brand new case has to be designed from scratch.

[fohat.digs]

The numpad "9" they make has the page up legend underneath it, whereas the F122 does not.

Cindy and XMIT probably have loads of spare 122 terminal keys after all the Model Fs that got stripped last year for lot_lizard's project.

[willmurray461]

I'm actually surprised no one else has said a word about this. I don't imagine there's much of a chance of such boards ever appearing, since the F-repro project seems heavily collector-driven. But then again, these aren't vintage boards—so what are people "collecting" when they buy them, really? And why feel locked into antiquated layouts? Would a 104-key Model F seem sacrilegious?

Well I don't know how heavily this project is collector driven as they don't have the same keys as the original. They are all ANSI, even though the originals had some weird keys like a small return key, enter and reset keys like terminal keyboards, and a back tab key.

[fohat.digs]

I don't know how heavily this project is collector driven

"Collector" is the wrong term here, I think that "enthusiast driven" would be more appropriate.

One of the great advantages of classic-IBM construction is that the hardware is built to be adaptable to accommodate multiple layouts.
Once you have the beasts dismantled, changing layouts is trivial.

[0100010]

4704 107 for me.  But I do have an F62 on order, would rather have an original 4704 62 (kish / tin saver).

[fohat.digs]

would rather have an original 4704

The wait seems to be years, but I am still waiting to hear a real, true, honest, side-by-side comparison between original and reproduction.

Although the parts of the reproductions promise to be superior to original parts, the sum of the whole has a lot to live up to.

[ctm]

If you're comparing typing experience and build quality, the reproduction will definitely beat the older ones out of the water. I mean it's a reproduction, whereas the original model F have suffered more than 20 years of banging.

However, the sentimental value and the thrill of working to restore an original Model F is definitely more tempting and fun. Moreover some people prefer the F107 or F122 layout compared to the reproduction models.

Personally I've ordered an F77 reproduction and restored 2 XT, an AT a 3727 Beamspring and countless Model M, and the magical feeling of restoring them completely and seeing them plugged in the first time always gives me great pleasure. Sometimes, people prefer the older stuff just for the experience of getting their hands dirty.

P.S. Beamspring truly lives up to its legendary reputation and they are a pure joy to clatter and type on.

Beam spring is a miracle. I was lucky enough to try it in Living Computer Museum. It feels soooo good.

[Zobeid Zuma]

I know you didn't include this in your choices, but what I'd most like to see is a reproduction with Model F switches and a standard ANSI layout (101, 104, anything like that). It wouldn't really be a "reproduction", since IBM never made boards like that—but if you use keyboards for typing, not just collecting, that'd be the most practical and enjoyable one ever made, IMHO.

Well, this is only my personal view on the subject, but. . .    The "standard" 104-key Model M layout is also a dinosaur.  It's 30 years old, and it's a relic from the DOS era when spreadsheets were dominant applications, nobody had a mouse, and computers were entirely controlled through the keyboard.  Even though it's an authentic reproduction, the F77 actually comes a lot closer to today's trends in keyboard design.  In fact, the Ultra Compact F77 with the aluminum case is just about as contemporary as a keyboard design gets.

[Entropia]

What I don't understand is why they remove the function row. In my opinion, the problem with size in keyboard design is merely width. That's why many prefer tenkeyless or 1800 over full size, because you can have your board more centered and still have your mouse not to far away on the right. But we all have lots of free space between our keyboard and our monitor so, what's the point in removing the useful function keys? Some say it's for aesthetic reasons, but others say that the function row is too far away from your fingers. Thar argument makes no sense to me, because I don't see how forcing a key combination using the Fn key + numbers can be more comfortable or ergonomic than moving your hand 1 cm to reach and press one single key.

[Zobeid Zuma]

What I don't understand is why they remove the function row. In my opinion, the problem with size in keyboard design is merely width.

OK, I understand this argument.  I recently got a new Matias Mini Tactile Pro, which is a 75% layout that includes all the F1-F12 keys, and it's nicely compact on my desk.  Why get rid of those keys?

Let me turn that question around. . .   Why keep them?  What are they good for?

I've been primarily a Mac users for the last 20 years, more or less, and I can't remember ever finding any use for any of those keys in any application.  Applications are generally controlled through drop-down menus with keyboard shortcuts, and they almost universally use Command and Alt key combinations for those shortcuts.  The F-keys were so under-utilized that Apple turned them into media keys and also use F3 and F4 to activate Dashboard and Expose.  They even made that the default setting and require us to hold down Fn to access the original F1-F12 functionality, because it's so rarely used!  So, forget about moving F1-F12 to a layer.  For Mac users it's already there.

IMHO the F-keys are relics from a time when there were no drop-down menus, and programs like Word Perfect and Lotus 1-2-3 used those keys for basic application control -- sometimes even coming with templates you could set on top of your keyboard to help remember which ones did what.  That was a long time ago, and nothing works that way any more.  From where I sit, that entire row of keys should be considered deprecated.  Yes, let's be able to access them through a Fn layer just in case we accidentally stumble across some ancient, eccentric program that requires them, but otherwise we should be able to forget that they ever existed.  It's either that or spend even more decades staring at that entire row of useless keys while struggling to dream up some way to make them good for something again.

Now, let's consider the F77 for a moment.  It doesn't have any F-keys, but it does have a 15-key matrix pad that we can program for anything.  You can put all of your nav keys onto that -- four arrow keys, page up, page down, home, end.  That leaves seven keys that you can set up as media keys or what-have-you.  The F-keys can be accessible as a layer on either the number row (the usual choice) or through the 15-key pad, assuming you ever stumble upon some program that actually uses them for anything.  Seems like just about an ideal solution to me.

[0100010]

Just add a set of front printed function keys on the number row (older pic below).

http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/AltFunNumKey

[Entropia]

What I don't understand is why they remove the function row. In my opinion, the problem with size in keyboard design is merely width.

OK, I understand this argument.  I recently got a new Matias Mini Tactile Pro, which is a 75% layout that includes all the F1-F12 keys, and it's nicely compact on my desk.  Why get rid of those keys?

Let me turn that question around. . .   Why keep them?  What are they good for?

I've been primarily a Mac users for the last 20 years, more or less, and I can't remember ever finding any use for any of those keys in any application.  Applications are generally controlled through drop-down menus with keyboard shortcuts, and they almost universally use Command and Alt key combinations for those shortcuts.  The F-keys were so under-utilized that Apple turned them into media keys and also use F3 and F4 to activate Dashboard and Expose.  They even made that the default setting and require us to hold down Fn to access the original F1-F12 functionality, because it's so rarely used!  So, forget about moving F1-F12 to a layer.  For Mac users it's already there.

IMHO the F-keys are relics from a time when there were no drop-down menus, and programs like Word Perfect and Lotus 1-2-3 used those keys for basic application control -- sometimes even coming with templates you could set on top of your keyboard to help remember which ones did what.  That was a long time ago, and nothing works that way any more.  From where I sit, that entire row of keys should be considered deprecated.  Yes, let's be able to access them through a Fn layer just in case we accidentally stumble across some ancient, eccentric program that requires them, but otherwise we should be able to forget that they ever existed.  It's either that or spend even more decades staring at that entire row of useless keys while struggling to dream up some way to make them good for something again.

Now, let's consider the F77 for a moment.  It doesn't have any F-keys, but it does have a 15-key matrix pad that we can program for anything.  You can put all of your nav keys onto that -- four arrow keys, page up, page down, home, end.  That leaves seven keys that you can set up as media keys or what-have-you.  The F-keys can be accessible as a layer on either the number row (the usual choice) or through the 15-key pad, assuming you ever stumble upon some program that actually uses them for anything.  Seems like just about an ideal solution to me.

I use F2  all the time to rename files, F3 to search (in file explorer and in browsers), alt + F4 to exit any app, F5 to refresh, F11 for fullscreen, and I have asigned hotkeys to others (for instance I use F12 very often to close all the open explorer windows, keeping F6 and F7 during one second to extract my portable hard drive and pendrive respectively, F8 to open my notes file, F9 to launch Chrome, F10 to launch Thunderbird...). Apart from this, the function row is perfect for asigning shortcuts in different programs (for instance I use them in Photoshop: F9 to resize image, F10 to adjust levels and F11 to adjust saturation).

[Kavik]

What I don't understand is why they remove the function row. In my opinion, the problem with size in keyboard design is merely width.

OK, I understand this argument.  I recently got a new Matias Mini Tactile Pro, which is a 75% layout that includes all the F1-F12 keys, and it's nicely compact on my desk.  Why get rid of those keys?

Let me turn that question around. . .   Why keep them?  What are they good for?

I've been primarily a Mac users for the last 20 years, more or less, and I can't remember ever finding any use for any of those keys in any application.  Applications are generally controlled through drop-down menus with keyboard shortcuts, and they almost universally use Command and Alt key combinations for those shortcuts.  The F-keys were so under-utilized that Apple turned them into media keys and also use F3 and F4 to activate Dashboard and Expose.  They even made that the default setting and require us to hold down Fn to access the original F1-F12 functionality, because it's so rarely used!  So, forget about moving F1-F12 to a layer.  For Mac users it's already there.

IMHO the F-keys are relics from a time when there were no drop-down menus, and programs like Word Perfect and Lotus 1-2-3 used those keys for basic application control -- sometimes even coming with templates you could set on top of your keyboard to help remember which ones did what.  That was a long time ago, and nothing works that way any more.  From where I sit, that entire row of keys should be considered deprecated.  Yes, let's be able to access them through a Fn layer just in case we accidentally stumble across some ancient, eccentric program that requires them, but otherwise we should be able to forget that they ever existed.  It's either that or spend even more decades staring at that entire row of useless keys while struggling to dream up some way to make them good for something again.

Now, let's consider the F77 for a moment.  It doesn't have any F-keys, but it does have a 15-key matrix pad that we can program for anything.  You can put all of your nav keys onto that -- four arrow keys, page up, page down, home, end.  That leaves seven keys that you can set up as media keys or what-have-you.  The F-keys can be accessible as a layer on either the number row (the usual choice) or through the 15-key pad, assuming you ever stumble upon some program that actually uses them for anything.  Seems like just about an ideal solution to me.

I use F2  all the time to rename files, F3 to search (in file explorer and in browsers), alt + F4 to exit any app, F5 to refresh, F11 for fullscreen, and I have asigned hotkeys to others (for instance I use F12 very often to close all the open explorer windows, keeping F6 and F7 during one second to extract my portable hard drive and pendrive respectively, F8 to open my notes file, F9 to launch Chrome, F10 to launch Thunderbird...). Apart from this, the function row is perfect for asigning shortcuts in different programs (for instance I use them in Photoshop: F9 to resize image, F10 to adjust levels and F11 to adjust saturation).

I was going to say that I use the F-keys quite a bit too, but you just blew my mind with F2 and F3. I've been using menu key > M or Shift + F10 > M to rename for a while; F2 is way easier. I've been using ctrl + F for searching also.

I've never understood the appeal of mini-keebs... Yes, they're cute, but it just seems like more work, having to use combinations for the simplest things. (Like, moving your cursor...?)

I know you didn't include this in your choices, but what I'd most like to see is a reproduction with Model F switches and a standard ANSI layout (101, 104, anything like that). It wouldn't really be a "reproduction", since IBM never made boards like that—but if you use keyboards for typing, not just collecting, that'd be the most practical and enjoyable one ever made, IMHO.

I'm actually surprised no one else has said a word about this. I don't imagine there's much of a chance of such boards ever appearing, since the F-repro project seems heavily collector-driven. But then again, these aren't vintage boards—so what are people "collecting" when they buy them, really? And why feel locked into antiquated layouts? Would a 104-key Model F seem sacrilegious?

There was a project on Deskthority earlier this year called Model MF that was a conversion kit for turning your SSK (not sure if fullsize was included) into a capacitive BS board. I think the project was canceled though.

[SpAmRaY]

I use F3 and F8 all day and F5 a lot as well.